Hey Colin,

I'm looking thru my email for stuff that might have gotten dropped. It
looks like there was never a resolution to this. Is there anything I
can do to move things along?

--
Shaun

On Tue, 2023-03-07 at 12:00 -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
> Hello, I'm a developer on Fedora/RHEL and OpenShift.  Lately we've
> been landing a lot of "bootable container" changes in OpenShift core,
> and there's a lot more to come.
>
> However, as we've been doing about this...I've been saying to people
> that I wish I had a time machine to go back and do bootable
> containers from the start.  There's a lot of things we're doing today
> that I think we should stop doing, e.g.:
>
> - Switching to kernel-rt by fiddling with each node; we should be
> simply pulling a pre-built bootable container image with that kernel
> (more on this below)
> - Getting away from injecting so much persistent state by default
> (both via Ignition and outside of it)
>
> And crucially, I think we should be developing tools and techniques
> that apply *outside* of Kubernetes/OpenShift and also work well with
> it.  To be direct, I'd like to eventually productize some of what's
> happening here in RHEL, not in OpenShift.
>
> As part of this (potential) re-architecture of how we think of
> systems management, I created the
> https://github.com/containers/bootc project.  To be direct: If
> successful, I think bootc will be the successor to (rpm-)ostree. 
> It's also intended to much more closely align with the
> github.com/containers organization.
>
> A simple way to think of this is: One can (build and) run
> *application* containers with podman; and these containers can also
> be run in e.g. Kubernetes/OpenShift.  One can build *bootable*
> containers using any tooling (including podman build), but *running*
> them is via bootc on the end machine.  bootc understands kernels etc.
>
> But there's a lot to figure out here - and I want to have a space to
> figure out this stuff and experiment with it outside of a direct-to-
> product path.  I think a CentOS SIG makes sense for this.
>
> So what I'd like to do is either:
>
> - Add a new effort to the Cloud SIG, which currently (IMO a bit
> confusingly) hosts OpenStack/RDO and OpenShift/OKD things which would
> be a 3rd thing.  The bootc work would then be the "base OS" split for
> OKD/SCOS.  But of course, nothing stops one from building bootable
> host images that are instead designed to be RDO/OpenStack hosts.
> - Or, create a new SIG
>
> Personally, I lean towards the latter because honestly I find the
> naming "Cloud" to be misleading - bootc is also intended to be useful
> for standalone, non-cloud-infrastructure settings (such as desktops
> and IoT).
>
> Specifically, I'd like to transfer the existing code that lives in
> https://github.com/cgwalters/bootc-demo-base-images (specifically
> https://github.com/cgwalters/bootc-demo-base-images/blob/main/c9s.yaml
>  ) into something CentOS-affiliated and explicitly maintained by a
> team.  (Though I'm not super excited to move it to pagure like at
> least some other SIG content, but let's not get distracted by git
> hosting too much here).
>
> Another way to say it is that I'd love to ship quay.io/centos/centos-
> boot:stream9 (notice the -boot).  Or failing that, it'd be
> quay.io/centos-boot/centos-boot:stream9 or so.  There's a *lot* to
> discuss in terms of what actually goes in these base images, and also
> ensuring it's equally ergonomic for users to build their own base
> images.  So really it's very likely there wouldn't be just *one* base
> image.  In fact, I recently introduced a -rt variant with the RT
> kernel:
> https://github.com/cgwalters/bootc-demo-base-images/commit/68afb072a5a1396c7424ed536a896293fff8287d
>  - and this was specifically motivated by issues we hit in OCP.  But
> again, I want to have a space where we try to do more of a "clean(er)
> slate" approach for a while, with notes "not for production use" -
> for a while.  Everything done here though *is* made with that as an
> explicit goal though (e.g. it's a toplevel design goal too that
> existing ostree-based systems can be seamlessly switched to be
> container-based without
>  reprovisioning).
>
> At the same time, bootc already introduces some quite new things that
> need design iteration; for example:
> https://github.com/containers/bootc#using-bootc-install - we ship
> tooling such that a container can install itself (without going
> through a raw disk image as is used by both OCP and Edge deployments
> today).  And at the same time, I'd like to aim to get the Anaconda
> changes to install these bootable containers in
> https://github.com/rhinstaller/anaconda/pull/4561
>
> OK this is already too long, so I'm just going to click send =)
> Thoughts?
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>

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