[CentOS-devel] Before You Get Mad About The CentOS Stream Change, Think About…

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 12:30 PM Phelps, Matthew <mphelps at cfa.harvard.edu>
wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 1:00 PM Mike McGrath <mmcgrath at redhat.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 10:23 AM sankarshan <
>> sankarshan.mukhopadhyay at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I am going to snip a lot of this note and respond to a specific part.
>>>
>>> On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 at 21:33, Ljubomir Ljubojevic <centos at plnet.rs>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > It looks like "fatherlinux" chose to not allow my comment. I see he
>>> > allowed some other comments and replied to some other, but mine is
>>> > missing, so I will post it here:
>>> >
>>> > ********************
>>>
>>> [snipped]
>>>
>>> > To conclude:
>>> > When RH employed CentOS Core team in 2014 they promised that nothing
>>> > will change for "CentOS Linux". According to Johnny Hughes, member of
>>> > the CentOS board this change of direction, discontinuing of "CentOS
>>> > Linux" happened my RH liaison stating that changes will be made how
>>> ever
>>> > rest of the CentOS board votes (with implication concluded by me that
>>> > those against will lose  RH employee status). Board was initially
>>> > against, but then they capitulated in front of Red Hat blackmails and
>>> > decided "to vote for changes unanimously". Red Had flexed it's muscles,
>>> > members of CentOS Board will be forever remembered as exchanging
>>> > reputation and respect for income in Red Hat, and users decided such
>>> > tactics deserve abandonment of Red Hat.
>>> > Some 30% of people commenting negatively say they will move to
>>> > Debian/Ubuntu regardless of any positive points Red Hat employees try
>>> to
>>> > make, at least 60% will stay on CentOS Linux 7 until EOL but will
>>> switch
>>> > CentOS Linux 8 to Springdale, Oracle, or Rocky or Lenix  in next 12
>>> > months, and big non-for-profit institutions will wait to see what will
>>> > happen with "free RHEL licensees" for them. Around 70-80% of sysadmins
>>> > and CentOS users  commenting will never, ever, recommend RHEL to
>>> anyone.
>>> > I have to rebase my server from CentOS 6, and I am going with
>>> Springdale
>>> > for now, and will start learning Debian. I will soon resign as admin in
>>> > Facebook group (Many think that FB group is owned by me) and I was
>>> > already asked by some FB users if I plan to create new EL group they
>>> can
>>> > switch to. Only reason to delay is to try to persuade members and
>>> > visitors that they do not have to rush with switching to Debian/Ubuntu,
>>> > that there is still time.
>>> >
>>> > ****************************
>>>
>>> The RHT - CentOS bits happened in 2014. I am certain that the
>>> statements from the CentOS team were made with the best intentions and
>>> were not meant to masquerade anything. Holding the entire phenomenal
>>> CentOS crew (all of whom have spent long years building this community
>>> with love) to a statement made way back in 2014 seems and is a bit
>>> unfair. Realities change and it would be reasonably obvious that
>>> strategic plans determined CentOS-as-upstream-of-RHEL to be the need
>>> of the hour rather than continue with the focus of CentOS as it has
>>> been.
>>>
>>> Please pause for a moment and think about the individuals being
>>> denigrated on the lists. These are not the evil, malicious and
>>> villainous characters they are being demonized as. For what it is
>>> worth we've likely met them in person, shared a joke or a beverage. I
>>> doubt they like the outcome any more than we in the community do.
>>>
>>> Being kind, being respectful and being an ally does not take a lot.
>>> Let's be that while we find how best to preserve our interests,
>>> businesses and energies.
>>>
>>
>> I'd also just add that while I find Johnny's characterization of what
>> happened accurate, Ljubomir took a couple of leaps that I don't think
>> existed.  Red Hat decided not to continue paying actual money for what was
>> actively harming us and no longer providing the value that it once did.  No
>> one, not even the board, could force Red Hat to continue paying for this
>> project which was just not working for us.
>>
>
> Thanks for admitting that the reason Red Hat did this was financial. This
> BS about it being "a better way for Community input into RHEL" is just
> that, BS.
>
>
Ah, actually I didn't do that.  RHEL is and has been doing fine.  Don't
confuse "value" with revenue.  CentOS Linux no longer served any purpose at
Red Hat and I'll flip it back around as I did in the previous email.

Why should Red Hat, or any company, continue to pay for something that
isn't working out?


> Can we stop with the charade that this is supposed to be a good thing for
> the CentOS community? It's not. It was never intended to be. It's a
> punishment for us getting "free Red Hat" all these years.
>
>
I don't think anyone's said that.  This is a massive change and disruption
for the existing CentOS community.  90% of the community (by our estimates)
will be able to stay on CentOS 7 until 2024 just as they expected.  We made
sure the 10% on CentOS Linux 8 didn't continue to grow (thus trying to
minimize impact).  We aren't punishing anyone and the fact that two other
clones have already popped up is a testament to that.


> Well, you all see the reaction this has garnered around the world, and
> it's all negative except for the Red Hat employees trying to convince us
> it's a good thing. Nice try.
>
>
Actually, things took an interesting turn around Thursday.  Once people
understood what we actually announced much of the press has been very
positive, and now that the shock has worn off, we're seeing quite a lot of
support.


> We all know differently. And we are all now making influential choices
> that will hurt Red Hat.
>
>
I don't mean to sound cold here but if you really want to talk about the
business side of this....  If you don't have a budget and don't end up
finding a home in our coming low-cost or free offerings (Fedora, CentOS
Stream, UBI, or RHEL for developers, CI, Open Source, edu, mom/pop shops,
etc).  Then what choices are you talking about?

          -Mike


> Good job!
>
>
>
> I'm not going to say that the announcement was the board's idea or even
>> that they were happy about it.  I think the previous course and speed of
>> CentOS was well understood.  But that no longer worked for Red Hat who is
>> paying for people, servers, swag, etc.  The list goes on.
>>
>> Note: I was not in the room when the voting happened.  I was involved in
>> the negotiations.  The board had a tremendous impact on helping Red Hat
>> better understand some things that needed to happen in CentOS Stream.  For
>> example, versioning it and supporting it through the full support cycle of
>> RHEL instead of what stream was before (a sort of continuous stream with
>> one year overlap for migrations, etc).  The Board is expecting things out
>> of CentOS Stream and we expect them to hold us to that.
>>
>> It's easy to say "The Board is full of Red Hatters and they did this."
>> But I think we all know that's not the case, some of the Red Hatters on the
>> board were as fierce a defender of the existing CentOS community as one
>> could possibly be.  The board could have voted this down.  Red Hat could
>> have dissolved the board (as I understand the voting rules).  But that
>> didn't happen.  Both sides of this came to an agreement that we - together
>> - could live with and that represented a positive future for CentOS.  A
>> very very different future for sure, but a positive one.
>>
>>            -Mike
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
>
> --
>
> *Matt Phelps*
>
> *Information Technology Specialist, Systems Administrator*
>
> (Computation Facility, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory)
>
> Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian
>
>
> 60 Garden Street | MS 39 | Cambridge, MA 02138
> email: mphelps at cfa.harvard.edu
>
>
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