El jue, 10 dic 2020 a las 15:25, Ljubomir Ljubojevic (<centos at plnet.rs>) escribió: > On 12/10/20 1:19 PM, Josh Boyer wrote: > > It would be disingenuous to say Stream won't have bugs. All software > > development has bugs. However, the "development and testing" part > > actually extends to the development and testing of the software *you* > > are developing. Stream exists as a base for you to do your own > > development and testing. > > > > What is with you Red Hat people and "developers"? Do you really live in > a fairy-tale world where every Linux user is a "developer"? > > All my ranting I am to commit will be explained at the end of the rant. > > I started as simple Windows admin and Delphi programmer that in 2004 > became small WISP and needed Firewall/router/Web&Mail server. So I > installed ClarkConnect 4 and had to learn iptables to overcome CC's web > config. In 2007 I started experimenting with standalone Linux system and > in 2008 installed C5 web/mail/NFS/Samba server and Desktop systems and > was forced to learn how to use them and configure them. > > Then I learned how to harden Postfix, how to install and maintain Joomla > and webshop, then I started learning programming in BASH with ncurses > and multidimensional arrays to create TUI script to manage my Wireless > routers (ping, trace, backup, login,...). > > Then I needed another server but because I did not have enough money I > ended up creating KVM host/guest, but because my only server was 32-bit > and RHEL dropped support for 32-bit KVM hosts, I studied and learned > from internet how to build KVM kmod module for 32-bit CPU/kernel (some > Hungarian? guy in CentOS community explained it in detail). Everything I > learned was when I NEEDED it, and I did it all by my self. > > After building KVM module and learning how to compile/package rpm's, I > decided to rebuild some packages from Fedora to have more tools for my > Desktop CentOS 5. I ended up producing around 70 packages including > packaging Skype with static libraries into rpm. I was only person in the > world to do it, and since almost no one used CentOS 5 as Desktop/laptop, > only few people used it. I ended up creating "DentOS" repository with > those Desktop packages which mostly only I installed to friends and > clients. And my clients were not rich (I am from Serbia and legal > software in companies is even today only 30-40%) so even getting them to > but a PC for RAID file server needed persuading. > I was one of rare ones to create RAID out of partitions and not disks. > Why? Because I needed > > Then I needed to learn some PHP and Python, so I did. I was one of very > rare ISP's in my country to provide sending mail via port 587 (with SSL) > because largest ISP's allowed sending e-mail for accounts on their mail > servers only from inside their own networks and only on port 25. I was > shocked to learn of that, but I was pushing the envelope just like I was > only one in Serbian Linux community to use CentOS for Desktop/laptop. > > So even though I was actively preaching about bigger CentOS use to > everyone who wanted to listen, and I created largest resources and > howto's collection (I became admin of the official CentOS Facebook group > in 2011 and ever since published there resources and articles) and I > daily solved problems for newbies, beside using it my self as desktop, I > rarely built Linux systems and only involvement was "yum update" and > some "spring cleaning" on few servers I managed. > > So in last 10 years I installed only some 4-5 CentOS servers (Samba + > KVM host with legal Windows guest), if I do not count several CentOS > systems for my own use, mostly Laptops for me. And THAT IS IT, no grand > scheme, no dozens or hundreds of servers, no big development projects, > no University diploma, just a guy fixing Windows PC's in small IT shop > for small number of clients and installing WISP clients. > At the moment I am System Admin in a 60-employee company with 50 Windows > PC's and 3 FreeNAS/TrueNAS file servers, and the only Linux is my laptop > running CentOS 8 with MATE. > > > Now the punchline: MOST CentOS users are like that. Not "developers" but > small server owners or hosting renters. > > I am admin for CentOS Facebook group for 9 years. I grew it from 300 > members to 26.800 members. BUT what you do not realize is that vast > majority of those Facebook users when they joined our group or "Linux" > FB group, where I was one of the admins in ~2010-2015 and advocated > CentOS like a biggest zealot, only heard that Linux exist and wanted to > learn something. They rented some hosting or Linux VM and needed to > learn basics. Only maybe 20-30 members (out of 26.800 + all those that > over 9 years left the group or closed the FB account) were established > Linux users. > > When we explain them that there are no audio/video codecs due to legal > restrictions, that kernel is backported and adding some module is not > possible if they compile vanila kernel because it brakes the kABI, that > they need to install centosplus kernel because driver they needed RHEL > does not want to support, that CentOS tools for development are too old > because of version freeze, that they need to install several 3rd party > repositories to make their server work, they then asks us "but why would > we use CentOS instead of Debian, Ubuntu, SUSE...?" > And every single time the response was "Because Red Hat is great company > that created great and very stable product and CentOS is almost total > clone of RHEL, and when they learn how to manage CentOS they can go for > RH Linux certification. And that is it, for them CentOS does not have > any other competitive edge over other Linuxes beside "99% clone of > RHEL". SELinux was more of the repelling point, vast majority would just > turn it off when they read first Howto on the internet, and great > efforts went to lpleading with them to try to learn SELinux. > > So the fact that there are 1.000 guys that do developing on CentOS does > not mean that majority of CentOS users are "developers", on the > contrary, vast majority of servers running CentOS, especially rented > VM's are run/controlled by guys like me whose main job is not to manged > Linux servers, that is only a side job and many only barely understand > what they are doing. They installed the system, configured it via some > tutorial, and left it running. > > "First step in solving a problem is realizing there IS a problem.". > Your first problem is that you do not understand VAST majority of your > users just want Linux server to run their small business they do not > have to pay for. And there is no free RHEL license for us with no money > and need for Linux server. > Your second problem is that main "selling" point for them to use CentOS > was "free clone", and only reason they were "sold" that mantra was > because us zealots worked very hard to convince them to chose CentOS > over other distro's. And we are NOT going to stake OUR credibility to > support your illusions of grandeur that CentOS Stream with packages 3-6 > months ahead of current RHEL will be stable enough to not cause THEM any > problems (including paid-for software like CPanel, Virtualmin, and many > others people run on servers). > > Third problem you have is that while hosting vendors WILL stop offering > "CentOS Linux 8" to renters, just like you wanted, they will NOT stake > THEIR reputation and pay THEIR support staff for EVERY incident/crash > YOUR Stream will cause to THEIR customers. They will continue to offer > C7 until 2024 and their EL8 offering will be just switched to ANOTHER > clone of RHEL. Since Red Hat is OBLIGATED to publish source code, clones > like Springdale and new ones WILL CONTINUE to be built and offered. > > But now, due to greed of your employers, all of us from EL (Enterprise > Linux) community who were loyal to "RHEL clone" known as "CentOS Linux" > are going to LEAVE. As soon as I can I will run a Springdale Linux VM to > check things out, and as soon as I am satisfied with it I will then > change every single CentOS server I have to Springdale. > > NEVER again will I install a system with CentOS brand, and since no one > I know has the money to buy the RHEL license, I will never be in > position to offer it to someone, luckily. > And I doubt those in the position to recommend some Linux system with > subscription are going to recommend RHEL to anyone EVER again after your > (Red Hat's) stupid stunt. > > So feel free to live in your little "developer" fantasy before it comes > crashing down when mass exodus occurs, and I will focus on some damage > control and try to redirect those leaving CentOS for other distro's to > Springdale, so that EL community is damaged as little as possible. > > > -- > Ljubomir Ljubojevic > (Love is in the Air) > PL Computers > Serbia, Europe > > StarOS, Mikrotik and CentOS/RHEL/Linux consultant > > It's the DEVops fairytale. With **DEV** in uppercase and bold and ops with lowercase, despite that as 'we' sysadmins have to solve the disasters made by brilliant developers. DEVops is the flogisto of the new age ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlogiston_theory). And everyone that challenges must be sent to the bonfire... Some people think that Facebook reality it's the entire IT world reality. -- -- Sergio Belkin LPIC-2 Certified - http://www.lpi.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos-devel/attachments/20201210/1574dfa3/attachment-0005.html>