From git at centos.org  Mon Aug  3 16:47:22 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 16:47:22 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (c10c954 ->
	32db764)
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    from c10c954  fix nfv schedule
     add 32db764  Typo

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 about/governance.md | 2 +-
 1 file changed, 1 insertion(+), 1 deletion(-)

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From git at centos.org  Mon Aug  3 16:48:08 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 16:48:08 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (32db764 ->
	11ef743)
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    from 32db764  Typo
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From git at centos.org  Wed Aug 12 14:36:50 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:36:50 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (11ef743 ->
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    from 11ef743  Update calendars.
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From git at centos.org  Thu Aug 13 13:29:12 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:29:12 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated: Updated
 gpg keys list with new Infra key
Message-ID: <20200813132912.7245.92225@ip-8-43-84-211.rdu2c.centos.org>

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The following commit(s) were added to refs/heads/master by this push:
     new 622617c  Updated gpg keys list with new Infra key
622617c is described below

commit 622617c6ac68f8200f2cc8153ce14ecdaac7e3f7
Author: Fabian Arrotin <arrfab at centos.org>
AuthorDate: Thu Aug 13 15:29:05 2020 +0200

    Updated gpg keys list with new Infra key
    
    Signed-off-by: Fabian Arrotin <arrfab at centos.org>
---
 keys.md                           |  8 ++++++++
 keys/RPM-GPG-KEY-CentOS-SIG-Infra | 32 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 2 files changed, 40 insertions(+)

diff --git a/keys.md b/keys.md
index 44688bf..d9c505b 100644
--- a/keys.md
+++ b/keys.md
@@ -160,6 +160,12 @@ The following keys are used to sign community led efforts within the CentOS Proj
     pub  2048R/2F297ECC 2016-05-18 CentOS PaaS SIG (https://wiki.centos.org/SpecialInterestGroup/PaaS) <security at centos.org>
     Key fingerprint = C5E8 AB44 6FA7 893D 7490  51F1 C34C 5BD4 2F29 7ECC
 
+#### Infra SIG
+[download key ](/keys/RPM-GPG-KEY-CentOS-SIG-Infra)
+
+    pub 2048R/F56D1621 2020-08-13 CentOS Infra SIG (https://wiki.centos.org/SpecialInterestGroup/Core) <security at centos.org>
+    Key fingerprint = 2F3B 7058 BCFA C3AB 0C72  B1BC 8B44 4FCE F56D 1621
+
 ### AltArch keys
 
 Community driven ports of CentOS to other platforms.
@@ -181,3 +187,5 @@ Community driven ports of CentOS to other platforms.
 
     pub  2048R/F533F4FA 2015-11-27 CentOS AltArch SIG - PowerPC (https://wiki.centos.org/SpecialInterestGroup/AltArch) <security at centos.org>
     Key fingerprint = BAFA 3436 FC50 768E 3C3C  2E4E A963 BBDB F533 F4FA
+
+
diff --git a/keys/RPM-GPG-KEY-CentOS-SIG-Infra b/keys/RPM-GPG-KEY-CentOS-SIG-Infra
new file mode 100644
index 0000000..a366504
--- /dev/null
+++ b/keys/RPM-GPG-KEY-CentOS-SIG-Infra
@@ -0,0 +1,32 @@
+-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
+Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
+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+=Au+4
+-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
+

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From rbowen at redhat.com  Mon Aug 17 19:54:01 2020
From: rbowen at redhat.com (Rich Bowen)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 15:54:01 -0400
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Documentation SIG: Participation wanted
In-Reply-To: <6f5fee6c-95ab-a4e4-44ea-3ac7b78d90de@redhat.com>
References: <6f5fee6c-95ab-a4e4-44ea-3ac7b78d90de@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <a0c34817-9c6a-b9d2-e7f1-68c755b47715@redhat.com>

Sorry, folks, i know I have made zero progress on this. The last two 
months have been unexpectedly busy. I hope to get back to this soon, 
unless someone wants to pick up the charge.

On 6/30/20 2:20 PM, Rich Bowen wrote:
> Hi, folks,
> 
> I've been working through the CentOS wiki for more than a year now, 
> trying to identify and fix outdated/wrong/obsolete content. It's a 
> daunting task, and I'm losing.
> 
> I would very much like to gather a group of people who are:
> 
> * Knowledgeable about CentOS
> * Good with words
> * Have a little time
> 
> who would be willing and able to review the content of the wiki, and fix 
> the bits that are incorrect.
> 
> The CentOS Documentation SIG (which doesn't actually exist in any 
> meaningful way) is, according to the wiki:
> 
> responsible for the content of the Wiki, and other public sources of 
> documentation. This includes, but is not limited to:
> 
> * Determining, and imposing, a hierarchy/architecture of content in the 
> wiki
> * Editing/pruning existing content when it is incorrect/outdated/obsolete
> * Recruiting subject matter experts to do some of that editing
> * Recruiting translators to keep our various translations in sync
> 
> [Ref: https://wiki.centos.org/SpecialInterestGroup/Documentation ]
> 
> If any of the above appeals to you, I would ask you to let me know. I 
> would like to create a SIG around the wiki. Please let me know if you're 
> interested. I know that there are a number of you who are consistently 
> active on this list. I would like to find a way to give us a little more 
> power/authority over the wiki to make higher-level editorial decisions 
> about information architecture. Also, having a formal SIG might be a way 
> to engage more people to join the effort and dedicate some time to it.
> 


From rbowen at redhat.com  Mon Aug 17 20:04:09 2020
From: rbowen at redhat.com (Rich Bowen)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 16:04:09 -0400
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Installing CentOS - user feedback
Message-ID: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>

A few days ago I got email from a user who was attempting to install 
CentOS. I've included their full message below, but, to summarize, when 
one clicks on the "CentOS Linux" link on the front page of centos.org 
one is given a matrix of choices, and no guidance. On choosing one 
option - say, x84_64 ISO, one is then given another list of options and 
no guidance. Pick one of *those* options and you are yet again given a 
list of options and no guidance.

Now, it could be argued that someone who doesn't know what to choose is 
not our target audience, and I suppose that would be an ok position to 
hold. But wouldn't it be great to lower the bar just a little, and offer 
some guidance as to which links one should click?

I'd like to see several things:

1) On the front page, where it says "We offer two Linux distros:", there 
would be at least some hint of what this choice entails

2) On the download page - https://www.centos.org/centos-linux/ - a 
little explanation of what the various options there are.

So far, this is all just edits to centos.org. The next two steps involve 
pushing changes to the mirror network, and I honestly have no idea what 
is involved there.

3) Adding phrasing to 
http://isoredirect.centos.org/centos/8/isos/x86_64/ that indicates what 
that inscrutable list of links means.

and finally, possibly not even possible:

4) Add words to http://centos4.zswap.net/8.2.2004/isos/x86_64/ (as a 
random example) that say what the various options mean. This is probably 
not possible, since these are just autoindex generated pages. We could, 
however, offer Apache httpd and nginx configuration recommendations 
which will provide that additional information for sites that chose to 
follow the instructions.

And, really, #1 and #2 are the most important here.

The full message follows:

 >>
I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me
some sort of answer.
I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located
a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring
varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I
have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how
do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed
to know what they are looking for.
When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with
".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely
candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no
idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave
CentOs to the experts?
I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user
level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone
who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very
unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended
user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to
choose which version of CentOs to use?
If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to
answer my question, I will be grateful.
<<


From thibaut.perrin at gmail.com  Mon Aug 17 20:19:43 2020
From: thibaut.perrin at gmail.com (Thibaut Perrin)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 22:19:43 +0200
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Installing CentOS - user feedback
In-Reply-To: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
References: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <CACR6vxF6Z4puUH19A+bLdBR4NFrDph4fNOsfzQ7HxaT-Za2ZAA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Rich,

Just for 1), when you choose the distro you want, written in white on blue
on top of that you have a phrasing that describes (agreed, it could be
better positioned, but it's there) :
CentOS Linux
=> Consistent, manageable platform that suits a wide variety of
deployments. For some open source communities, it is a solid, predictable
base to build upon.

CentOS Stream
=> Rolling-release distro that tracks just ahead of Red Hat Enterprise
Linux (RHEL) development, positioned as a midstream between Fedora Linux
and RHEL. For anyone interested in participating and collaborating in the
RHEL ecosystem, CentOS Stream is your reliable platform for innovation.

I agree on the missing points, and also the "Documentation" page includes
doc for 7 & 8, even if you're on the 6.10 choice. Which means there's not
even documentation links for 6 while it's still possible to download it ?

On the other points, once you choose x86_64, there should be more guidance
on the mirror page I'd say. You'll find the following ISO files, here is a
list of which you'll find and what usage.
Maybe the mirror parent page could include a readme or a redirect to the
ISO page as well for that matter ?

I think the fewest places the info is stored, the less likely we'll forget
an update when there is one.

Thanks,


On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 10:04 PM Rich Bowen <rbowen at redhat.com> wrote:

> A few days ago I got email from a user who was attempting to install
> CentOS. I've included their full message below, but, to summarize, when
> one clicks on the "CentOS Linux" link on the front page of centos.org
> one is given a matrix of choices, and no guidance. On choosing one
> option - say, x84_64 ISO, one is then given another list of options and
> no guidance. Pick one of *those* options and you are yet again given a
> list of options and no guidance.
>
> Now, it could be argued that someone who doesn't know what to choose is
> not our target audience, and I suppose that would be an ok position to
> hold. But wouldn't it be great to lower the bar just a little, and offer
> some guidance as to which links one should click?
>
> I'd like to see several things:
>
> 1) On the front page, where it says "We offer two Linux distros:", there
> would be at least some hint of what this choice entails
>
> 2) On the download page - https://www.centos.org/centos-linux/ - a
> little explanation of what the various options there are.
>
> So far, this is all just edits to centos.org. The next two steps involve
> pushing changes to the mirror network, and I honestly have no idea what
> is involved there.
>
> 3) Adding phrasing to
> http://isoredirect.centos.org/centos/8/isos/x86_64/ that indicates what
> that inscrutable list of links means.
>
> and finally, possibly not even possible:
>
> 4) Add words to http://centos4.zswap.net/8.2.2004/isos/x86_64/ (as a
> random example) that say what the various options mean. This is probably
> not possible, since these are just autoindex generated pages. We could,
> however, offer Apache httpd and nginx configuration recommendations
> which will provide that additional information for sites that chose to
> follow the instructions.
>
> And, really, #1 and #2 are the most important here.
>
> The full message follows:
>
>  >>
> I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me
> some sort of answer.
> I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located
> a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring
> varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I
> have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how
> do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed
> to know what they are looking for.
> When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with
> ".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely
> candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no
> idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave
> CentOs to the experts?
> I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user
> level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone
> who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very
> unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended
> user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to
> choose which version of CentOs to use?
> If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to
> answer my question, I will be grateful.
> <<
>
> _______________________________________________
> CentOS-docs mailing list
> CentOS-docs at centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
>
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From rbowen at redhat.com  Mon Aug 17 20:30:06 2020
From: rbowen at redhat.com (Rich Bowen)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 16:30:06 -0400
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Installing CentOS - user feedback
In-Reply-To: <CACR6vxF6Z4puUH19A+bLdBR4NFrDph4fNOsfzQ7HxaT-Za2ZAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
 <CACR6vxF6Z4puUH19A+bLdBR4NFrDph4fNOsfzQ7HxaT-Za2ZAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c8897642-20ef-c9b7-26ab-e6a057a27c26@redhat.com>



On 8/17/20 4:19 PM, Thibaut Perrin wrote:
> Hi Rich,
> 
> Just for 1), when you choose the distro you want, written in white on 
> blue on top of that you have a phrasing that describes (agreed, it could 
> be better positioned, but it's there) :
> CentOS Linux
> => Consistent, manageable platform that suits a wide variety of 
> deployments. For some open source communities, it is a solid, 
> predictable base to build upon.
> 
> CentOS Stream
> => Rolling-release distro that tracks just ahead of Red Hat Enterprise 
> Linux (RHEL) development, positioned as a midstream between Fedora Linux 
> and RHEL. For anyone interested in participating and collaborating in 
> the RHEL ecosystem, CentOS Stream is your reliable platform for innovation.

Yes, these are good, but are both *after* you've made the choice of 
which button to click. I have been told (not in writing, but just at 
events) that it's not clear why one would pick one or the other. Maybe 
we could do a shorter form of those as a mouseover?

> 
> I agree on the missing points,?and also the "Documentation" page 
> includes doc for 7 & 8, even if you're on the?6.10 choice. Which means 
> there's not even documentation links for 6 while it's still possible to 
> download it ?

Oops. I hadn't noticed that. Although, we're just 2 months out from 6 
EOL, so probably not something we're going to spend much time fixing, 
I'd guess?

> 
> On the other points, once you choose x86_64, there should be more 
> guidance on the mirror page I'd say. You'll find the following ISO 
> files, here is a list of which you'll find and what usage.
> Maybe the mirror parent page could include a readme or a redirect to the 
> ISO page as well for that matter ?
> 
> I think the fewest places the info is stored, the less likely we'll 
> forget an update when there is one.

Definitely, I agree.


> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 10:04 PM Rich Bowen <rbowen at redhat.com 
> <mailto:rbowen at redhat.com>> wrote:
> 
>     A few days ago I got email from a user who was attempting to install
>     CentOS. I've included their full message below, but, to summarize, when
>     one clicks on the "CentOS Linux" link on the front page of
>     centos.org <http://centos.org>
>     one is given a matrix of choices, and no guidance. On choosing one
>     option - say, x84_64 ISO, one is then given another list of options and
>     no guidance. Pick one of *those* options and you are yet again given a
>     list of options and no guidance.
> 
>     Now, it could be argued that someone who doesn't know what to choose is
>     not our target audience, and I suppose that would be an ok position to
>     hold. But wouldn't it be great to lower the bar just a little, and
>     offer
>     some guidance as to which links one should click?
> 
>     I'd like to see several things:
> 
>     1) On the front page, where it says "We offer two Linux distros:",
>     there
>     would be at least some hint of what this choice entails
> 
>     2) On the download page - https://www.centos.org/centos-linux/ - a
>     little explanation of what the various options there are.
> 
>     So far, this is all just edits to centos.org <http://centos.org>.
>     The next two steps involve
>     pushing changes to the mirror network, and I honestly have no idea what
>     is involved there.
> 
>     3) Adding phrasing to
>     http://isoredirect.centos.org/centos/8/isos/x86_64/ that indicates what
>     that inscrutable list of links means.
> 
>     and finally, possibly not even possible:
> 
>     4) Add words to http://centos4.zswap.net/8.2.2004/isos/x86_64/ (as a
>     random example) that say what the various options mean. This is
>     probably
>     not possible, since these are just autoindex generated pages. We could,
>     however, offer Apache httpd and nginx configuration recommendations
>     which will provide that additional information for sites that chose to
>     follow the instructions.
> 
>     And, really, #1 and #2 are the most important here.
> 
>     The full message follows:
> 
>      ?>>
>     I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me
>     some sort of answer.
>     I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located
>     a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring
>     varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I
>     have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how
>     do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed
>     to know what they are looking for.
>     When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with
>     ".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely
>     candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no
>     idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave
>     CentOs to the experts?
>     I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user
>     level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone
>     who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very
>     unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended
>     user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to
>     choose which version of CentOs to use?
>     If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to
>     answer my question, I will be grateful.
>     <<
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     CentOS-docs mailing list
>     CentOS-docs at centos.org <mailto:CentOS-docs at centos.org>
>     https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> CentOS-docs mailing list
> CentOS-docs at centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
> 


From wolfy at nobugconsulting.ro  Mon Aug 17 23:34:59 2020
From: wolfy at nobugconsulting.ro (Manuel Wolfshant)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 02:34:59 +0300
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Installing CentOS - user feedback
In-Reply-To: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
References: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <7dbb55e7-000e-ad14-30c3-201bcefa848d@nobugconsulting.ro>

On 8/17/20 11:04 PM, Rich Bowen wrote:
> A few days ago I got email from a user who was attempting to install 
> CentOS. I've included their full message below, but, to summarize, 
> when one clicks on the "CentOS Linux" link on the front page of 
> centos.org one is given a matrix of choices, and no guidance. On 
> choosing one option - say, x84_64 ISO, one is then given another list 
> of options and no guidance. Pick one of *those* options and you are 
> yet again given a list of options and no guidance.
>
> Now, it could be argued that someone who doesn't know what to choose 
> is not our target audience, and I suppose that would be an ok position 
> to hold. But wouldn't it be great to lower the bar just a little, and 
> offer some guidance as to which links one should click?
>
> I'd like to see several things:
>
> 1) On the front page, where it says "We offer two Linux distros:", 
> there would be at least some hint of what this choice entails
>
> 2) On the download page - https://www.centos.org/centos-linux/ - a 
> little explanation of what the various options there are.
>
> So far, this is all just edits to centos.org. The next two steps 
> involve pushing changes to the mirror network, and I honestly have no 
> idea what is involved there.
>
> 3) Adding phrasing to 
> http://isoredirect.centos.org/centos/8/isos/x86_64/ that indicates 
> what that inscrutable list of links means.
>
> and finally, possibly not even possible:
>
> 4) Add words to http://centos4.zswap.net/8.2.2004/isos/x86_64/ (as a 
> random example) that say what the various options mean. This is 
> probably not possible, since these are just autoindex generated pages. 
> We could, however, offer Apache httpd and nginx configuration 
> recommendations which will provide that additional information for 
> sites that chose to follow the instructions.
>
> And, really, #1 and #2 are the most important here.
>
Rich, I fully agree with that user and frankly, I command him for 
reaching out and telling you ( and us ) his concerns. I for one would 
have quit and not looked back. Been there, done that.

Leaving that aside, AFAIK the main web site is not under community 
control. It was taken over by RedHat eons ago ( not that it was 
accessible for us, the members of the CentOS teams, before that anyway ) 
and I bet that there are most 5 people who can modify it. If memory 
serves I am part of the wiki translation team for 12 years or so and 
AFAIK none of those who can edit the wiki had ever had any sort of 
influence on the pages published on www.c.o. We actually had to _beg_ to 
have links in the main website point to the wiki ( which _was_ under our 
control ) so that we could publish information we thought that 
could/would be useful for the users.


In an ideal world, we would have some sort of AJAX that would 
dynamically describe each and every iso link on the main pages of the 
web site. But that's a job for web designers and content publishers. I 
fully recommend to whoever will be tasked with this project to look at 
the wiki maintained by the arch community. THAT is how things should be 
done, from my point of view. And, with all due respect, I mean that as 
opposed to access.r.c and www.r.c which are awful to navigate unless you 
know exactly what you want.. and sometimes not even then.

wolfy


PS: I created the very very first 0_README.txt file that is now included 
in the isos/$ARCH folder. A file which usually is ignored for the simple 
reason that end users almost never reach it but whose content should be 
published BEFORE the users attempt to download an iso.



> The full message follows:
>
> >>
> I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me
> some sort of answer.
> I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located
> a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring
> varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I
> have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how
> do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed
> to know what they are looking for.
> When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with
> ".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely
> candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no
> idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave
> CentOs to the experts?
> I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user
> level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone
> who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very
> unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended
> user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to
> choose which version of CentOs to use?
> If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to
> answer my question, I will be grateful.
> <<
>
> _______________________________________________
> CentOS-docs mailing list
> CentOS-docs at centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs



From wolfy at nobugconsulting.ro  Mon Aug 17 23:41:09 2020
From: wolfy at nobugconsulting.ro (Manuel Wolfshant)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 02:41:09 +0300
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Installing CentOS - user feedback
In-Reply-To: <7dbb55e7-000e-ad14-30c3-201bcefa848d@nobugconsulting.ro>
References: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
 <7dbb55e7-000e-ad14-30c3-201bcefa848d@nobugconsulting.ro>
Message-ID: <9fd4ff07-1981-51b3-7fcf-ede9e6195b45@nobugconsulting.ro>

On 8/18/20 2:34 AM, Manuel Wolfshant wrote:
> On 8/17/20 11:04 PM, Rich Bowen wrote:
>> A few days ago I got email from a user who was attempting to install 
>> CentOS. I've included their full message below, but, to summarize, 
>> when one clicks on the "CentOS Linux" link on the front page of 
>> centos.org one is given a matrix of choices, and no guidance. On 
>> choosing one option - say, x84_64 ISO, one is then given another list 
>> of options and no guidance. Pick one of *those* options and you are 
>> yet again given a list of options and no guidance.
>>
>> Now, it could be argued that someone who doesn't know what to choose 
>> is not our target audience, and I suppose that would be an ok 
>> position to hold. But wouldn't it be great to lower the bar just a 
>> little, and offer some guidance as to which links one should click?
>>
>> I'd like to see several things:
>>
>> 1) On the front page, where it says "We offer two Linux distros:", 
>> there would be at least some hint of what this choice entails
>>
>> 2) On the download page - https://www.centos.org/centos-linux/ - a 
>> little explanation of what the various options there are.
>>
>> So far, this is all just edits to centos.org. The next two steps 
>> involve pushing changes to the mirror network, and I honestly have no 
>> idea what is involved there.
>>
>> 3) Adding phrasing to 
>> http://isoredirect.centos.org/centos/8/isos/x86_64/ that indicates 
>> what that inscrutable list of links means.
>>
>> and finally, possibly not even possible:
>>
>> 4) Add words to http://centos4.zswap.net/8.2.2004/isos/x86_64/ (as a 
>> random example) that say what the various options mean. This is 
>> probably not possible, since these are just autoindex generated 
>> pages. We could, however, offer Apache httpd and nginx configuration 
>> recommendations which will provide that additional information for 
>> sites that chose to follow the instructions.


Oh, sweet. I just noticed that below the /8/isos tree there is no 
description similar to 
http://centos4.zswap.net/7/isos/x86_64/0_README.txt. Wonderful choice, 
dropping each and every hint that [barely] existed.


>>
>> And, really, #1 and #2 are the most important here.
>>
> Rich, I fully agree with that user and frankly, I command him for 
> reaching out and telling you ( and us ) his concerns. I for one would 
> have quit and not looked back. Been there, done that.
>
> Leaving that aside, AFAIK the main web site is not under community 
> control. It was taken over by RedHat eons ago ( not that it was 
> accessible for us, the members of the CentOS teams, before that anyway 
> ) and I bet that there are most 5 people who can modify it. If memory 
> serves I am part of the wiki translation team for 12 years or so and 
> AFAIK none of those who can edit the wiki had ever had any sort of 
> influence on the pages published on www.c.o. We actually had to _beg_ 
> to have links in the main website point to the wiki ( which _was_ 
> under our control ) so that we could publish information we thought 
> that could/would be useful for the users.
>
>
> In an ideal world, we would have some sort of AJAX that would 
> dynamically describe each and every iso link on the main pages of the 
> web site. But that's a job for web designers and content publishers. I 
> fully recommend to whoever will be tasked with this project to look at 
> the wiki maintained by the arch community. THAT is how things should 
> be done, from my point of view. And, with all due respect, I mean that 
> as opposed to access.r.c and www.r.c which are awful to navigate 
> unless you know exactly what you want.. and sometimes not even then.
>
> wolfy
>
>
> PS: I created the very very first 0_README.txt file that is now 
> included in the isos/$ARCH folder. A file which usually is ignored for 
> the simple reason that end users almost never reach it but whose 
> content should be published BEFORE the users attempt to download an iso.
>
>
>
>> The full message follows:
>>
>> >>
>> I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me
>> some sort of answer.
>> I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located
>> a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring
>> varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I
>> have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how
>> do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed
>> to know what they are looking for.
>> When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with
>> ".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely
>> candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no
>> idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave
>> CentOs to the experts?
>> I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user
>> level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone
>> who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very
>> unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended
>> user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to
>> choose which version of CentOs to use?
>> If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to
>> answer my question, I will be grateful.
>> <<


From rbowen at redhat.com  Tue Aug 18 14:01:03 2020
From: rbowen at redhat.com (Rich Bowen)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 10:01:03 -0400
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Installing CentOS - user feedback
In-Reply-To: <7dbb55e7-000e-ad14-30c3-201bcefa848d@nobugconsulting.ro>
References: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
 <7dbb55e7-000e-ad14-30c3-201bcefa848d@nobugconsulting.ro>
Message-ID: <2c9bc431-5f5e-00a5-ee1c-600afadce6de@redhat.com>



On 8/17/20 7:34 PM, Manuel Wolfshant wrote:

> Leaving that aside, AFAIK the main web site is not under community 
> control. It was taken over by RedHat eons ago ( not that it was 
> accessible for us, the members of the CentOS teams, before that anyway ) 
> and I bet that there are most 5 people who can modify it. If memory 
> serves I am part of the wiki translation team for 12 years or so and 
> AFAIK none of those who can edit the wiki had ever had any sort of 
> influence on the pages published on www.c.o. We actually had to _beg_ to 
> have links in the main website point to the wiki ( which _was_ under our 
> control ) so that we could publish information we thought that 
> could/would be useful for the users.

FYI: Anyone can submit pull requests at 
https://git.centos.org/centos/centos.org

> 
> 
> In an ideal world, we would have some sort of AJAX that would 
> dynamically describe each and every iso link on the main pages of the 
> web site. But that's a job for web designers and content publishers. I 
> fully recommend to whoever will be tasked with this project to look at 
> the wiki maintained by the arch community. THAT is how things should be 
> done, from my point of view. And, with all due respect, I mean that as 
> opposed to access.r.c and www.r.c which are awful to navigate unless you 
> know exactly what you want.. and sometimes not even then.
> 
> wolfy
> 
> 
> PS: I created the very very first 0_README.txt file that is now included 
> in the isos/$ARCH folder. A file which usually is ignored for the simple 
> reason that end users almost never reach it but whose content should be 
> published BEFORE the users attempt to download an iso.
> 
> 
> 
>> The full message follows:
>>
>> >>
>> I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me
>> some sort of answer.
>> I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located
>> a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring
>> varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I
>> have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how
>> do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed
>> to know what they are looking for.
>> When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with
>> ".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely
>> candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no
>> idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave
>> CentOs to the experts?
>> I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user
>> level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone
>> who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very
>> unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended
>> user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to
>> choose which version of CentOs to use?
>> If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to
>> answer my question, I will be grateful.
>> <<
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CentOS-docs mailing list
>> CentOS-docs at centos.org
>> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> CentOS-docs mailing list
> CentOS-docs at centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
> 


From git at centos.org  Thu Aug 27 15:29:30 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 15:29:30 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (622617c ->
	b2cf591)
Message-ID: <20200827152930.14861.33957@ip-8-43-84-211.rdu2c.centos.org>

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Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (b2cf591 ->
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From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 19:55:05 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (d408e8c ->
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From git at centos.org  Fri Aug 28 12:38:06 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 12:38:06 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (397faa6 ->
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From git at centos.org  Sat Aug 29 06:14:19 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 06:14:19 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated: Backported
 https://github.com/CentOS/Calendar/pull/39/files for calendar rendering
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The following commit(s) were added to refs/heads/master by this push:
     new b881fc0  Backported https://github.com/CentOS/Calendar/pull/39/files for calendar rendering
b881fc0 is described below

commit b881fc0319f0e5b596955ab4ba8e05421384841d
Author: Fabian Arrotin <arrfab at centos.org>
AuthorDate: Sat Aug 29 08:14:11 2020 +0200

    Backported https://github.com/CentOS/Calendar/pull/39/files for calendar rendering
    
    Signed-off-by: Fabian Arrotin <arrfab at centos.org>
---
 community/calendar.md | 8 +++++++-
 1 file changed, 7 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-)

diff --git a/community/calendar.md b/community/calendar.md
index 26d62df..7ca7854 100644
--- a/community/calendar.md
+++ b/community/calendar.md
@@ -1,4 +1,10 @@
-# CentOS IRC meetings
+---
+title: "CentOS IRC meetings"
+title_lead: ""
+layout: page
+permalink: /:path/:basename/index.html
+toc: true
+---
 
 ## Meeting schedule
 

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From billings at negate.org  Mon Aug 31 21:28:58 2020
From: billings at negate.org (Jonathan Billings)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 17:28:58 -0400
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Misleading information on main page about Centos
	Stream
Message-ID: <ED837E68-6118-4DDC-B753-957B6F5DE78B@negate.org>

Not sure if this is a Docs issue or others...

I came across this page:

https://www.centos.org/centos-stream/

> CentOS Steam
> 
> Rolling-release distro that tracks just ahead of Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL) development, positioned as a midstream between Fedora Linux and RHEL. For anyone interested in participating and collaborating in the RHEL ecosystem, CentOS Stream is your reliable platform for innovation.

This is pretty misleading. Isn?t Stream just a collection of repos that offer pre-release packages for the next RHEL point release?  It?s not a midstream between Fedora and RHEL. 
--
Jonathan Billings <billings at negate.org>
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From git at centos.org  Thu Aug 13 13:29:12 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:29:12 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated: Updated
 gpg keys list with new Infra key
Message-ID: <20200813132912.7245.92225@ip-8-43-84-211.rdu2c.centos.org>

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The following commit(s) were added to refs/heads/master by this push:
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commit 622617c6ac68f8200f2cc8153ce14ecdaac7e3f7
Author: Fabian Arrotin <arrfab at centos.org>
AuthorDate: Thu Aug 13 15:29:05 2020 +0200

    Updated gpg keys list with new Infra key
    
    Signed-off-by: Fabian Arrotin <arrfab at centos.org>
---
 keys.md                           |  8 ++++++++
 keys/RPM-GPG-KEY-CentOS-SIG-Infra | 32 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 2 files changed, 40 insertions(+)

diff --git a/keys.md b/keys.md
index 44688bf..d9c505b 100644
--- a/keys.md
+++ b/keys.md
@@ -160,6 +160,12 @@ The following keys are used to sign community led efforts within the CentOS Proj
     pub  2048R/2F297ECC 2016-05-18 CentOS PaaS SIG (https://wiki.centos.org/SpecialInterestGroup/PaaS) <security at centos.org>
     Key fingerprint = C5E8 AB44 6FA7 893D 7490  51F1 C34C 5BD4 2F29 7ECC
 
+#### Infra SIG
+[download key ](/keys/RPM-GPG-KEY-CentOS-SIG-Infra)
+
+    pub 2048R/F56D1621 2020-08-13 CentOS Infra SIG (https://wiki.centos.org/SpecialInterestGroup/Core) <security at centos.org>
+    Key fingerprint = 2F3B 7058 BCFA C3AB 0C72  B1BC 8B44 4FCE F56D 1621
+
 ### AltArch keys
 
 Community driven ports of CentOS to other platforms.
@@ -181,3 +187,5 @@ Community driven ports of CentOS to other platforms.
 
     pub  2048R/F533F4FA 2015-11-27 CentOS AltArch SIG - PowerPC (https://wiki.centos.org/SpecialInterestGroup/AltArch) <security at centos.org>
     Key fingerprint = BAFA 3436 FC50 768E 3C3C  2E4E A963 BBDB F533 F4FA
+
+
diff --git a/keys/RPM-GPG-KEY-CentOS-SIG-Infra b/keys/RPM-GPG-KEY-CentOS-SIG-Infra
new file mode 100644
index 0000000..a366504
--- /dev/null
+++ b/keys/RPM-GPG-KEY-CentOS-SIG-Infra
@@ -0,0 +1,32 @@
+-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
+Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
+
+mQENBF81MQoBCADdqd33HEmIacxp/JjeqG4BpJlS3LAQ6sF/B4FL0lUdWOh7QakR
+E7V4JsvqdOqZtEYa/L5GbMX9yhWBYwEPavDkDImMCisrbtTUIH37GlrWy2p17yBE
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+-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
+

-- 
To stop receiving notification emails like this one, please contact
the administrator of this repository.


From rbowen at redhat.com  Mon Aug 17 19:54:01 2020
From: rbowen at redhat.com (Rich Bowen)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 15:54:01 -0400
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Documentation SIG: Participation wanted
In-Reply-To: <6f5fee6c-95ab-a4e4-44ea-3ac7b78d90de@redhat.com>
References: <6f5fee6c-95ab-a4e4-44ea-3ac7b78d90de@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <a0c34817-9c6a-b9d2-e7f1-68c755b47715@redhat.com>

Sorry, folks, i know I have made zero progress on this. The last two 
months have been unexpectedly busy. I hope to get back to this soon, 
unless someone wants to pick up the charge.

On 6/30/20 2:20 PM, Rich Bowen wrote:
> Hi, folks,
> 
> I've been working through the CentOS wiki for more than a year now, 
> trying to identify and fix outdated/wrong/obsolete content. It's a 
> daunting task, and I'm losing.
> 
> I would very much like to gather a group of people who are:
> 
> * Knowledgeable about CentOS
> * Good with words
> * Have a little time
> 
> who would be willing and able to review the content of the wiki, and fix 
> the bits that are incorrect.
> 
> The CentOS Documentation SIG (which doesn't actually exist in any 
> meaningful way) is, according to the wiki:
> 
> responsible for the content of the Wiki, and other public sources of 
> documentation. This includes, but is not limited to:
> 
> * Determining, and imposing, a hierarchy/architecture of content in the 
> wiki
> * Editing/pruning existing content when it is incorrect/outdated/obsolete
> * Recruiting subject matter experts to do some of that editing
> * Recruiting translators to keep our various translations in sync
> 
> [Ref: https://wiki.centos.org/SpecialInterestGroup/Documentation ]
> 
> If any of the above appeals to you, I would ask you to let me know. I 
> would like to create a SIG around the wiki. Please let me know if you're 
> interested. I know that there are a number of you who are consistently 
> active on this list. I would like to find a way to give us a little more 
> power/authority over the wiki to make higher-level editorial decisions 
> about information architecture. Also, having a formal SIG might be a way 
> to engage more people to join the effort and dedicate some time to it.
> 



From rbowen at redhat.com  Mon Aug 17 20:04:09 2020
From: rbowen at redhat.com (Rich Bowen)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 16:04:09 -0400
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Installing CentOS - user feedback
Message-ID: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>

A few days ago I got email from a user who was attempting to install 
CentOS. I've included their full message below, but, to summarize, when 
one clicks on the "CentOS Linux" link on the front page of centos.org 
one is given a matrix of choices, and no guidance. On choosing one 
option - say, x84_64 ISO, one is then given another list of options and 
no guidance. Pick one of *those* options and you are yet again given a 
list of options and no guidance.

Now, it could be argued that someone who doesn't know what to choose is 
not our target audience, and I suppose that would be an ok position to 
hold. But wouldn't it be great to lower the bar just a little, and offer 
some guidance as to which links one should click?

I'd like to see several things:

1) On the front page, where it says "We offer two Linux distros:", there 
would be at least some hint of what this choice entails

2) On the download page - https://www.centos.org/centos-linux/ - a 
little explanation of what the various options there are.

So far, this is all just edits to centos.org. The next two steps involve 
pushing changes to the mirror network, and I honestly have no idea what 
is involved there.

3) Adding phrasing to 
http://isoredirect.centos.org/centos/8/isos/x86_64/ that indicates what 
that inscrutable list of links means.

and finally, possibly not even possible:

4) Add words to http://centos4.zswap.net/8.2.2004/isos/x86_64/ (as a 
random example) that say what the various options mean. This is probably 
not possible, since these are just autoindex generated pages. We could, 
however, offer Apache httpd and nginx configuration recommendations 
which will provide that additional information for sites that chose to 
follow the instructions.

And, really, #1 and #2 are the most important here.

The full message follows:

 >>
I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me
some sort of answer.
I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located
a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring
varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I
have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how
do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed
to know what they are looking for.
When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with
".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely
candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no
idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave
CentOs to the experts?
I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user
level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone
who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very
unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended
user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to
choose which version of CentOs to use?
If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to
answer my question, I will be grateful.
<<



From thibaut.perrin at gmail.com  Mon Aug 17 20:19:43 2020
From: thibaut.perrin at gmail.com (Thibaut Perrin)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 22:19:43 +0200
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Installing CentOS - user feedback
In-Reply-To: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
References: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <CACR6vxF6Z4puUH19A+bLdBR4NFrDph4fNOsfzQ7HxaT-Za2ZAA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Rich,

Just for 1), when you choose the distro you want, written in white on blue
on top of that you have a phrasing that describes (agreed, it could be
better positioned, but it's there) :
CentOS Linux
=> Consistent, manageable platform that suits a wide variety of
deployments. For some open source communities, it is a solid, predictable
base to build upon.

CentOS Stream
=> Rolling-release distro that tracks just ahead of Red Hat Enterprise
Linux (RHEL) development, positioned as a midstream between Fedora Linux
and RHEL. For anyone interested in participating and collaborating in the
RHEL ecosystem, CentOS Stream is your reliable platform for innovation.

I agree on the missing points, and also the "Documentation" page includes
doc for 7 & 8, even if you're on the 6.10 choice. Which means there's not
even documentation links for 6 while it's still possible to download it ?

On the other points, once you choose x86_64, there should be more guidance
on the mirror page I'd say. You'll find the following ISO files, here is a
list of which you'll find and what usage.
Maybe the mirror parent page could include a readme or a redirect to the
ISO page as well for that matter ?

I think the fewest places the info is stored, the less likely we'll forget
an update when there is one.

Thanks,


On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 10:04 PM Rich Bowen <rbowen at redhat.com> wrote:

> A few days ago I got email from a user who was attempting to install
> CentOS. I've included their full message below, but, to summarize, when
> one clicks on the "CentOS Linux" link on the front page of centos.org
> one is given a matrix of choices, and no guidance. On choosing one
> option - say, x84_64 ISO, one is then given another list of options and
> no guidance. Pick one of *those* options and you are yet again given a
> list of options and no guidance.
>
> Now, it could be argued that someone who doesn't know what to choose is
> not our target audience, and I suppose that would be an ok position to
> hold. But wouldn't it be great to lower the bar just a little, and offer
> some guidance as to which links one should click?
>
> I'd like to see several things:
>
> 1) On the front page, where it says "We offer two Linux distros:", there
> would be at least some hint of what this choice entails
>
> 2) On the download page - https://www.centos.org/centos-linux/ - a
> little explanation of what the various options there are.
>
> So far, this is all just edits to centos.org. The next two steps involve
> pushing changes to the mirror network, and I honestly have no idea what
> is involved there.
>
> 3) Adding phrasing to
> http://isoredirect.centos.org/centos/8/isos/x86_64/ that indicates what
> that inscrutable list of links means.
>
> and finally, possibly not even possible:
>
> 4) Add words to http://centos4.zswap.net/8.2.2004/isos/x86_64/ (as a
> random example) that say what the various options mean. This is probably
> not possible, since these are just autoindex generated pages. We could,
> however, offer Apache httpd and nginx configuration recommendations
> which will provide that additional information for sites that chose to
> follow the instructions.
>
> And, really, #1 and #2 are the most important here.
>
> The full message follows:
>
>  >>
> I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me
> some sort of answer.
> I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located
> a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring
> varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I
> have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how
> do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed
> to know what they are looking for.
> When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with
> ".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely
> candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no
> idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave
> CentOs to the experts?
> I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user
> level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone
> who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very
> unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended
> user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to
> choose which version of CentOs to use?
> If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to
> answer my question, I will be grateful.
> <<
>
> _______________________________________________
> CentOS-docs mailing list
> CentOS-docs at centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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From rbowen at redhat.com  Mon Aug 17 20:30:06 2020
From: rbowen at redhat.com (Rich Bowen)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 16:30:06 -0400
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Installing CentOS - user feedback
In-Reply-To: <CACR6vxF6Z4puUH19A+bLdBR4NFrDph4fNOsfzQ7HxaT-Za2ZAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
 <CACR6vxF6Z4puUH19A+bLdBR4NFrDph4fNOsfzQ7HxaT-Za2ZAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c8897642-20ef-c9b7-26ab-e6a057a27c26@redhat.com>



On 8/17/20 4:19 PM, Thibaut Perrin wrote:
> Hi Rich,
> 
> Just for 1), when you choose the distro you want, written in white on 
> blue on top of that you have a phrasing that describes (agreed, it could 
> be better positioned, but it's there) :
> CentOS Linux
> => Consistent, manageable platform that suits a wide variety of 
> deployments. For some open source communities, it is a solid, 
> predictable base to build upon.
> 
> CentOS Stream
> => Rolling-release distro that tracks just ahead of Red Hat Enterprise 
> Linux (RHEL) development, positioned as a midstream between Fedora Linux 
> and RHEL. For anyone interested in participating and collaborating in 
> the RHEL ecosystem, CentOS Stream is your reliable platform for innovation.

Yes, these are good, but are both *after* you've made the choice of 
which button to click. I have been told (not in writing, but just at 
events) that it's not clear why one would pick one or the other. Maybe 
we could do a shorter form of those as a mouseover?

> 
> I agree on the missing points,?and also the "Documentation" page 
> includes doc for 7 & 8, even if you're on the?6.10 choice. Which means 
> there's not even documentation links for 6 while it's still possible to 
> download it ?

Oops. I hadn't noticed that. Although, we're just 2 months out from 6 
EOL, so probably not something we're going to spend much time fixing, 
I'd guess?

> 
> On the other points, once you choose x86_64, there should be more 
> guidance on the mirror page I'd say. You'll find the following ISO 
> files, here is a list of which you'll find and what usage.
> Maybe the mirror parent page could include a readme or a redirect to the 
> ISO page as well for that matter ?
> 
> I think the fewest places the info is stored, the less likely we'll 
> forget an update when there is one.

Definitely, I agree.


> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 10:04 PM Rich Bowen <rbowen at redhat.com 
> <mailto:rbowen at redhat.com>> wrote:
> 
>     A few days ago I got email from a user who was attempting to install
>     CentOS. I've included their full message below, but, to summarize, when
>     one clicks on the "CentOS Linux" link on the front page of
>     centos.org <http://centos.org>
>     one is given a matrix of choices, and no guidance. On choosing one
>     option - say, x84_64 ISO, one is then given another list of options and
>     no guidance. Pick one of *those* options and you are yet again given a
>     list of options and no guidance.
> 
>     Now, it could be argued that someone who doesn't know what to choose is
>     not our target audience, and I suppose that would be an ok position to
>     hold. But wouldn't it be great to lower the bar just a little, and
>     offer
>     some guidance as to which links one should click?
> 
>     I'd like to see several things:
> 
>     1) On the front page, where it says "We offer two Linux distros:",
>     there
>     would be at least some hint of what this choice entails
> 
>     2) On the download page - https://www.centos.org/centos-linux/ - a
>     little explanation of what the various options there are.
> 
>     So far, this is all just edits to centos.org <http://centos.org>.
>     The next two steps involve
>     pushing changes to the mirror network, and I honestly have no idea what
>     is involved there.
> 
>     3) Adding phrasing to
>     http://isoredirect.centos.org/centos/8/isos/x86_64/ that indicates what
>     that inscrutable list of links means.
> 
>     and finally, possibly not even possible:
> 
>     4) Add words to http://centos4.zswap.net/8.2.2004/isos/x86_64/ (as a
>     random example) that say what the various options mean. This is
>     probably
>     not possible, since these are just autoindex generated pages. We could,
>     however, offer Apache httpd and nginx configuration recommendations
>     which will provide that additional information for sites that chose to
>     follow the instructions.
> 
>     And, really, #1 and #2 are the most important here.
> 
>     The full message follows:
> 
>      ?>>
>     I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me
>     some sort of answer.
>     I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located
>     a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring
>     varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I
>     have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how
>     do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed
>     to know what they are looking for.
>     When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with
>     ".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely
>     candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no
>     idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave
>     CentOs to the experts?
>     I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user
>     level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone
>     who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very
>     unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended
>     user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to
>     choose which version of CentOs to use?
>     If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to
>     answer my question, I will be grateful.
>     <<
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     CentOS-docs mailing list
>     CentOS-docs at centos.org <mailto:CentOS-docs at centos.org>
>     https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> CentOS-docs mailing list
> CentOS-docs at centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
> 



From wolfy at nobugconsulting.ro  Mon Aug 17 23:34:59 2020
From: wolfy at nobugconsulting.ro (Manuel Wolfshant)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 02:34:59 +0300
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Installing CentOS - user feedback
In-Reply-To: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
References: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <7dbb55e7-000e-ad14-30c3-201bcefa848d@nobugconsulting.ro>

On 8/17/20 11:04 PM, Rich Bowen wrote:
> A few days ago I got email from a user who was attempting to install 
> CentOS. I've included their full message below, but, to summarize, 
> when one clicks on the "CentOS Linux" link on the front page of 
> centos.org one is given a matrix of choices, and no guidance. On 
> choosing one option - say, x84_64 ISO, one is then given another list 
> of options and no guidance. Pick one of *those* options and you are 
> yet again given a list of options and no guidance.
>
> Now, it could be argued that someone who doesn't know what to choose 
> is not our target audience, and I suppose that would be an ok position 
> to hold. But wouldn't it be great to lower the bar just a little, and 
> offer some guidance as to which links one should click?
>
> I'd like to see several things:
>
> 1) On the front page, where it says "We offer two Linux distros:", 
> there would be at least some hint of what this choice entails
>
> 2) On the download page - https://www.centos.org/centos-linux/ - a 
> little explanation of what the various options there are.
>
> So far, this is all just edits to centos.org. The next two steps 
> involve pushing changes to the mirror network, and I honestly have no 
> idea what is involved there.
>
> 3) Adding phrasing to 
> http://isoredirect.centos.org/centos/8/isos/x86_64/ that indicates 
> what that inscrutable list of links means.
>
> and finally, possibly not even possible:
>
> 4) Add words to http://centos4.zswap.net/8.2.2004/isos/x86_64/ (as a 
> random example) that say what the various options mean. This is 
> probably not possible, since these are just autoindex generated pages. 
> We could, however, offer Apache httpd and nginx configuration 
> recommendations which will provide that additional information for 
> sites that chose to follow the instructions.
>
> And, really, #1 and #2 are the most important here.
>
Rich, I fully agree with that user and frankly, I command him for 
reaching out and telling you ( and us ) his concerns. I for one would 
have quit and not looked back. Been there, done that.

Leaving that aside, AFAIK the main web site is not under community 
control. It was taken over by RedHat eons ago ( not that it was 
accessible for us, the members of the CentOS teams, before that anyway ) 
and I bet that there are most 5 people who can modify it. If memory 
serves I am part of the wiki translation team for 12 years or so and 
AFAIK none of those who can edit the wiki had ever had any sort of 
influence on the pages published on www.c.o. We actually had to _beg_ to 
have links in the main website point to the wiki ( which _was_ under our 
control ) so that we could publish information we thought that 
could/would be useful for the users.


In an ideal world, we would have some sort of AJAX that would 
dynamically describe each and every iso link on the main pages of the 
web site. But that's a job for web designers and content publishers. I 
fully recommend to whoever will be tasked with this project to look at 
the wiki maintained by the arch community. THAT is how things should be 
done, from my point of view. And, with all due respect, I mean that as 
opposed to access.r.c and www.r.c which are awful to navigate unless you 
know exactly what you want.. and sometimes not even then.

wolfy


PS: I created the very very first 0_README.txt file that is now included 
in the isos/$ARCH folder. A file which usually is ignored for the simple 
reason that end users almost never reach it but whose content should be 
published BEFORE the users attempt to download an iso.



> The full message follows:
>
> >>
> I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me
> some sort of answer.
> I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located
> a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring
> varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I
> have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how
> do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed
> to know what they are looking for.
> When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with
> ".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely
> candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no
> idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave
> CentOs to the experts?
> I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user
> level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone
> who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very
> unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended
> user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to
> choose which version of CentOs to use?
> If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to
> answer my question, I will be grateful.
> <<
>
> _______________________________________________
> CentOS-docs mailing list
> CentOS-docs at centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs




From wolfy at nobugconsulting.ro  Mon Aug 17 23:41:09 2020
From: wolfy at nobugconsulting.ro (Manuel Wolfshant)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 02:41:09 +0300
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Installing CentOS - user feedback
In-Reply-To: <7dbb55e7-000e-ad14-30c3-201bcefa848d@nobugconsulting.ro>
References: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
 <7dbb55e7-000e-ad14-30c3-201bcefa848d@nobugconsulting.ro>
Message-ID: <9fd4ff07-1981-51b3-7fcf-ede9e6195b45@nobugconsulting.ro>

On 8/18/20 2:34 AM, Manuel Wolfshant wrote:
> On 8/17/20 11:04 PM, Rich Bowen wrote:
>> A few days ago I got email from a user who was attempting to install 
>> CentOS. I've included their full message below, but, to summarize, 
>> when one clicks on the "CentOS Linux" link on the front page of 
>> centos.org one is given a matrix of choices, and no guidance. On 
>> choosing one option - say, x84_64 ISO, one is then given another list 
>> of options and no guidance. Pick one of *those* options and you are 
>> yet again given a list of options and no guidance.
>>
>> Now, it could be argued that someone who doesn't know what to choose 
>> is not our target audience, and I suppose that would be an ok 
>> position to hold. But wouldn't it be great to lower the bar just a 
>> little, and offer some guidance as to which links one should click?
>>
>> I'd like to see several things:
>>
>> 1) On the front page, where it says "We offer two Linux distros:", 
>> there would be at least some hint of what this choice entails
>>
>> 2) On the download page - https://www.centos.org/centos-linux/ - a 
>> little explanation of what the various options there are.
>>
>> So far, this is all just edits to centos.org. The next two steps 
>> involve pushing changes to the mirror network, and I honestly have no 
>> idea what is involved there.
>>
>> 3) Adding phrasing to 
>> http://isoredirect.centos.org/centos/8/isos/x86_64/ that indicates 
>> what that inscrutable list of links means.
>>
>> and finally, possibly not even possible:
>>
>> 4) Add words to http://centos4.zswap.net/8.2.2004/isos/x86_64/ (as a 
>> random example) that say what the various options mean. This is 
>> probably not possible, since these are just autoindex generated 
>> pages. We could, however, offer Apache httpd and nginx configuration 
>> recommendations which will provide that additional information for 
>> sites that chose to follow the instructions.


Oh, sweet. I just noticed that below the /8/isos tree there is no 
description similar to 
http://centos4.zswap.net/7/isos/x86_64/0_README.txt. Wonderful choice, 
dropping each and every hint that [barely] existed.


>>
>> And, really, #1 and #2 are the most important here.
>>
> Rich, I fully agree with that user and frankly, I command him for 
> reaching out and telling you ( and us ) his concerns. I for one would 
> have quit and not looked back. Been there, done that.
>
> Leaving that aside, AFAIK the main web site is not under community 
> control. It was taken over by RedHat eons ago ( not that it was 
> accessible for us, the members of the CentOS teams, before that anyway 
> ) and I bet that there are most 5 people who can modify it. If memory 
> serves I am part of the wiki translation team for 12 years or so and 
> AFAIK none of those who can edit the wiki had ever had any sort of 
> influence on the pages published on www.c.o. We actually had to _beg_ 
> to have links in the main website point to the wiki ( which _was_ 
> under our control ) so that we could publish information we thought 
> that could/would be useful for the users.
>
>
> In an ideal world, we would have some sort of AJAX that would 
> dynamically describe each and every iso link on the main pages of the 
> web site. But that's a job for web designers and content publishers. I 
> fully recommend to whoever will be tasked with this project to look at 
> the wiki maintained by the arch community. THAT is how things should 
> be done, from my point of view. And, with all due respect, I mean that 
> as opposed to access.r.c and www.r.c which are awful to navigate 
> unless you know exactly what you want.. and sometimes not even then.
>
> wolfy
>
>
> PS: I created the very very first 0_README.txt file that is now 
> included in the isos/$ARCH folder. A file which usually is ignored for 
> the simple reason that end users almost never reach it but whose 
> content should be published BEFORE the users attempt to download an iso.
>
>
>
>> The full message follows:
>>
>> >>
>> I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me
>> some sort of answer.
>> I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located
>> a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring
>> varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I
>> have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how
>> do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed
>> to know what they are looking for.
>> When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with
>> ".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely
>> candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no
>> idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave
>> CentOs to the experts?
>> I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user
>> level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone
>> who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very
>> unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended
>> user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to
>> choose which version of CentOs to use?
>> If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to
>> answer my question, I will be grateful.
>> <<



From rbowen at redhat.com  Tue Aug 18 14:01:03 2020
From: rbowen at redhat.com (Rich Bowen)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 10:01:03 -0400
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Installing CentOS - user feedback
In-Reply-To: <7dbb55e7-000e-ad14-30c3-201bcefa848d@nobugconsulting.ro>
References: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
 <7dbb55e7-000e-ad14-30c3-201bcefa848d@nobugconsulting.ro>
Message-ID: <2c9bc431-5f5e-00a5-ee1c-600afadce6de@redhat.com>



On 8/17/20 7:34 PM, Manuel Wolfshant wrote:

> Leaving that aside, AFAIK the main web site is not under community 
> control. It was taken over by RedHat eons ago ( not that it was 
> accessible for us, the members of the CentOS teams, before that anyway ) 
> and I bet that there are most 5 people who can modify it. If memory 
> serves I am part of the wiki translation team for 12 years or so and 
> AFAIK none of those who can edit the wiki had ever had any sort of 
> influence on the pages published on www.c.o. We actually had to _beg_ to 
> have links in the main website point to the wiki ( which _was_ under our 
> control ) so that we could publish information we thought that 
> could/would be useful for the users.

FYI: Anyone can submit pull requests at 
https://git.centos.org/centos/centos.org

> 
> 
> In an ideal world, we would have some sort of AJAX that would 
> dynamically describe each and every iso link on the main pages of the 
> web site. But that's a job for web designers and content publishers. I 
> fully recommend to whoever will be tasked with this project to look at 
> the wiki maintained by the arch community. THAT is how things should be 
> done, from my point of view. And, with all due respect, I mean that as 
> opposed to access.r.c and www.r.c which are awful to navigate unless you 
> know exactly what you want.. and sometimes not even then.
> 
> wolfy
> 
> 
> PS: I created the very very first 0_README.txt file that is now included 
> in the isos/$ARCH folder. A file which usually is ignored for the simple 
> reason that end users almost never reach it but whose content should be 
> published BEFORE the users attempt to download an iso.
> 
> 
> 
>> The full message follows:
>>
>> >>
>> I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me
>> some sort of answer.
>> I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located
>> a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring
>> varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I
>> have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how
>> do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed
>> to know what they are looking for.
>> When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with
>> ".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely
>> candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no
>> idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave
>> CentOs to the experts?
>> I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user
>> level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone
>> who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very
>> unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended
>> user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to
>> choose which version of CentOs to use?
>> If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to
>> answer my question, I will be grateful.
>> <<
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CentOS-docs mailing list
>> CentOS-docs at centos.org
>> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> CentOS-docs mailing list
> CentOS-docs at centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
> 



From git at centos.org  Thu Aug 27 15:29:30 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 15:29:30 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (622617c ->
	b2cf591)
Message-ID: <20200827152930.14861.33957@ip-8-43-84-211.rdu2c.centos.org>

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    from 622617c  Updated gpg keys list with new Infra key
     add b2cf591  Replace missing licensing policy doc

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From git at centos.org  Thu Aug 27 18:14:08 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 18:14:08 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (b2cf591 ->
	d408e8c)
Message-ID: <20200827181408.19591.89198@ip-8-43-84-211.rdu2c.centos.org>

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    from b2cf591  Replace missing licensing policy doc
     add d408e8c  Date is now accurate for the original file. - This file was lost from the website in a migration. - Rich recreated this file and put in the date of 2020-04-10 as a placeholder - I looked into my local checkout and am fixing the date here

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From git at centos.org  Thu Aug 27 19:55:05 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 19:55:05 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (d408e8c ->
	397faa6)
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    from d408e8c  Date is now accurate for the original file. - This file was lost from the website in a migration. - Rich recreated this file and put in the date of 2020-04-10 as a placeholder - I looked into my local checkout and am fixing the date here
     add 397faa6  Calendar updates

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From git at centos.org  Fri Aug 28 12:38:06 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 12:38:06 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (397faa6 ->
	da4b999)
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From git at centos.org  Sat Aug 29 06:14:19 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 06:14:19 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated: Backported
 https://github.com/CentOS/Calendar/pull/39/files for calendar rendering
Message-ID: <20200829061419.16811.43580@ip-8-43-84-211.rdu2c.centos.org>

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The following commit(s) were added to refs/heads/master by this push:
     new b881fc0  Backported https://github.com/CentOS/Calendar/pull/39/files for calendar rendering
b881fc0 is described below

commit b881fc0319f0e5b596955ab4ba8e05421384841d
Author: Fabian Arrotin <arrfab at centos.org>
AuthorDate: Sat Aug 29 08:14:11 2020 +0200

    Backported https://github.com/CentOS/Calendar/pull/39/files for calendar rendering
    
    Signed-off-by: Fabian Arrotin <arrfab at centos.org>
---
 community/calendar.md | 8 +++++++-
 1 file changed, 7 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-)

diff --git a/community/calendar.md b/community/calendar.md
index 26d62df..7ca7854 100644
--- a/community/calendar.md
+++ b/community/calendar.md
@@ -1,4 +1,10 @@
-# CentOS IRC meetings
+---
+title: "CentOS IRC meetings"
+title_lead: ""
+layout: page
+permalink: /:path/:basename/index.html
+toc: true
+---
 
 ## Meeting schedule
 

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From billings at negate.org  Mon Aug 31 21:28:58 2020
From: billings at negate.org (Jonathan Billings)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 17:28:58 -0400
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Misleading information on main page about Centos
	Stream
Message-ID: <ED837E68-6118-4DDC-B753-957B6F5DE78B@negate.org>

Not sure if this is a Docs issue or others...

I came across this page:

https://www.centos.org/centos-stream/

> CentOS Steam
> 
> Rolling-release distro that tracks just ahead of Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL) development, positioned as a midstream between Fedora Linux and RHEL. For anyone interested in participating and collaborating in the RHEL ecosystem, CentOS Stream is your reliable platform for innovation.

This is pretty misleading. Isn?t Stream just a collection of repos that offer pre-release packages for the next RHEL point release?  It?s not a midstream between Fedora and RHEL. 
--
Jonathan Billings <billings at negate.org>
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From git at centos.org  Mon Aug  3 16:47:22 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 16:47:22 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (c10c954 ->
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Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (32db764 ->
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From git at centos.org  Wed Aug 12 14:36:50 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:36:50 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (11ef743 ->
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From git at centos.org  Thu Aug 13 13:29:12 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:29:12 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated: Updated
 gpg keys list with new Infra key
Message-ID: <20200813132912.7245.92225@ip-8-43-84-211.rdu2c.centos.org>

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The following commit(s) were added to refs/heads/master by this push:
     new 622617c  Updated gpg keys list with new Infra key
622617c is described below

commit 622617c6ac68f8200f2cc8153ce14ecdaac7e3f7
Author: Fabian Arrotin <arrfab at centos.org>
AuthorDate: Thu Aug 13 15:29:05 2020 +0200

    Updated gpg keys list with new Infra key
    
    Signed-off-by: Fabian Arrotin <arrfab at centos.org>
---
 keys.md                           |  8 ++++++++
 keys/RPM-GPG-KEY-CentOS-SIG-Infra | 32 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 2 files changed, 40 insertions(+)

diff --git a/keys.md b/keys.md
index 44688bf..d9c505b 100644
--- a/keys.md
+++ b/keys.md
@@ -160,6 +160,12 @@ The following keys are used to sign community led efforts within the CentOS Proj
     pub  2048R/2F297ECC 2016-05-18 CentOS PaaS SIG (https://wiki.centos.org/SpecialInterestGroup/PaaS) <security at centos.org>
     Key fingerprint = C5E8 AB44 6FA7 893D 7490  51F1 C34C 5BD4 2F29 7ECC
 
+#### Infra SIG
+[download key ](/keys/RPM-GPG-KEY-CentOS-SIG-Infra)
+
+    pub 2048R/F56D1621 2020-08-13 CentOS Infra SIG (https://wiki.centos.org/SpecialInterestGroup/Core) <security at centos.org>
+    Key fingerprint = 2F3B 7058 BCFA C3AB 0C72  B1BC 8B44 4FCE F56D 1621
+
 ### AltArch keys
 
 Community driven ports of CentOS to other platforms.
@@ -181,3 +187,5 @@ Community driven ports of CentOS to other platforms.
 
     pub  2048R/F533F4FA 2015-11-27 CentOS AltArch SIG - PowerPC (https://wiki.centos.org/SpecialInterestGroup/AltArch) <security at centos.org>
     Key fingerprint = BAFA 3436 FC50 768E 3C3C  2E4E A963 BBDB F533 F4FA
+
+
diff --git a/keys/RPM-GPG-KEY-CentOS-SIG-Infra b/keys/RPM-GPG-KEY-CentOS-SIG-Infra
new file mode 100644
index 0000000..a366504
--- /dev/null
+++ b/keys/RPM-GPG-KEY-CentOS-SIG-Infra
@@ -0,0 +1,32 @@
+-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
+Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
+
+mQENBF81MQoBCADdqd33HEmIacxp/JjeqG4BpJlS3LAQ6sF/B4FL0lUdWOh7QakR
+E7V4JsvqdOqZtEYa/L5GbMX9yhWBYwEPavDkDImMCisrbtTUIH37GlrWy2p17yBE
+IyUUlUWQs0SJtXuPv2y5wp38LucYubMJX/DI6sxd7MULv5cLsJnRuZxua2XSgE4a
+cRjtrG5IyUgQhtjP11RJeuJXtrga4FmYWuCTLFRoQW7W6O4JgB0fPI+vdBLY/VUR
+GIn/MOrFYSFuBPS2Vp5MY3yAmW/x8dyUuJ/VeYFdUT0LI56lOl/OChQW7y4RRCNX
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To stop receiving notification emails like this one, please contact
the administrator of this repository.


From rbowen at redhat.com  Mon Aug 17 19:54:01 2020
From: rbowen at redhat.com (Rich Bowen)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 15:54:01 -0400
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Documentation SIG: Participation wanted
In-Reply-To: <6f5fee6c-95ab-a4e4-44ea-3ac7b78d90de@redhat.com>
References: <6f5fee6c-95ab-a4e4-44ea-3ac7b78d90de@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <a0c34817-9c6a-b9d2-e7f1-68c755b47715@redhat.com>

Sorry, folks, i know I have made zero progress on this. The last two 
months have been unexpectedly busy. I hope to get back to this soon, 
unless someone wants to pick up the charge.

On 6/30/20 2:20 PM, Rich Bowen wrote:
> Hi, folks,
> 
> I've been working through the CentOS wiki for more than a year now, 
> trying to identify and fix outdated/wrong/obsolete content. It's a 
> daunting task, and I'm losing.
> 
> I would very much like to gather a group of people who are:
> 
> * Knowledgeable about CentOS
> * Good with words
> * Have a little time
> 
> who would be willing and able to review the content of the wiki, and fix 
> the bits that are incorrect.
> 
> The CentOS Documentation SIG (which doesn't actually exist in any 
> meaningful way) is, according to the wiki:
> 
> responsible for the content of the Wiki, and other public sources of 
> documentation. This includes, but is not limited to:
> 
> * Determining, and imposing, a hierarchy/architecture of content in the 
> wiki
> * Editing/pruning existing content when it is incorrect/outdated/obsolete
> * Recruiting subject matter experts to do some of that editing
> * Recruiting translators to keep our various translations in sync
> 
> [Ref: https://wiki.centos.org/SpecialInterestGroup/Documentation ]
> 
> If any of the above appeals to you, I would ask you to let me know. I 
> would like to create a SIG around the wiki. Please let me know if you're 
> interested. I know that there are a number of you who are consistently 
> active on this list. I would like to find a way to give us a little more 
> power/authority over the wiki to make higher-level editorial decisions 
> about information architecture. Also, having a formal SIG might be a way 
> to engage more people to join the effort and dedicate some time to it.
> 



From rbowen at redhat.com  Mon Aug 17 20:04:09 2020
From: rbowen at redhat.com (Rich Bowen)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 16:04:09 -0400
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Installing CentOS - user feedback
Message-ID: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>

A few days ago I got email from a user who was attempting to install 
CentOS. I've included their full message below, but, to summarize, when 
one clicks on the "CentOS Linux" link on the front page of centos.org 
one is given a matrix of choices, and no guidance. On choosing one 
option - say, x84_64 ISO, one is then given another list of options and 
no guidance. Pick one of *those* options and you are yet again given a 
list of options and no guidance.

Now, it could be argued that someone who doesn't know what to choose is 
not our target audience, and I suppose that would be an ok position to 
hold. But wouldn't it be great to lower the bar just a little, and offer 
some guidance as to which links one should click?

I'd like to see several things:

1) On the front page, where it says "We offer two Linux distros:", there 
would be at least some hint of what this choice entails

2) On the download page - https://www.centos.org/centos-linux/ - a 
little explanation of what the various options there are.

So far, this is all just edits to centos.org. The next two steps involve 
pushing changes to the mirror network, and I honestly have no idea what 
is involved there.

3) Adding phrasing to 
http://isoredirect.centos.org/centos/8/isos/x86_64/ that indicates what 
that inscrutable list of links means.

and finally, possibly not even possible:

4) Add words to http://centos4.zswap.net/8.2.2004/isos/x86_64/ (as a 
random example) that say what the various options mean. This is probably 
not possible, since these are just autoindex generated pages. We could, 
however, offer Apache httpd and nginx configuration recommendations 
which will provide that additional information for sites that chose to 
follow the instructions.

And, really, #1 and #2 are the most important here.

The full message follows:

 >>
I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me
some sort of answer.
I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located
a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring
varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I
have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how
do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed
to know what they are looking for.
When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with
".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely
candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no
idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave
CentOs to the experts?
I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user
level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone
who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very
unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended
user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to
choose which version of CentOs to use?
If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to
answer my question, I will be grateful.
<<



From thibaut.perrin at gmail.com  Mon Aug 17 20:19:43 2020
From: thibaut.perrin at gmail.com (Thibaut Perrin)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 22:19:43 +0200
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Installing CentOS - user feedback
In-Reply-To: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
References: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <CACR6vxF6Z4puUH19A+bLdBR4NFrDph4fNOsfzQ7HxaT-Za2ZAA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Rich,

Just for 1), when you choose the distro you want, written in white on blue
on top of that you have a phrasing that describes (agreed, it could be
better positioned, but it's there) :
CentOS Linux
=> Consistent, manageable platform that suits a wide variety of
deployments. For some open source communities, it is a solid, predictable
base to build upon.

CentOS Stream
=> Rolling-release distro that tracks just ahead of Red Hat Enterprise
Linux (RHEL) development, positioned as a midstream between Fedora Linux
and RHEL. For anyone interested in participating and collaborating in the
RHEL ecosystem, CentOS Stream is your reliable platform for innovation.

I agree on the missing points, and also the "Documentation" page includes
doc for 7 & 8, even if you're on the 6.10 choice. Which means there's not
even documentation links for 6 while it's still possible to download it ?

On the other points, once you choose x86_64, there should be more guidance
on the mirror page I'd say. You'll find the following ISO files, here is a
list of which you'll find and what usage.
Maybe the mirror parent page could include a readme or a redirect to the
ISO page as well for that matter ?

I think the fewest places the info is stored, the less likely we'll forget
an update when there is one.

Thanks,


On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 10:04 PM Rich Bowen <rbowen at redhat.com> wrote:

> A few days ago I got email from a user who was attempting to install
> CentOS. I've included their full message below, but, to summarize, when
> one clicks on the "CentOS Linux" link on the front page of centos.org
> one is given a matrix of choices, and no guidance. On choosing one
> option - say, x84_64 ISO, one is then given another list of options and
> no guidance. Pick one of *those* options and you are yet again given a
> list of options and no guidance.
>
> Now, it could be argued that someone who doesn't know what to choose is
> not our target audience, and I suppose that would be an ok position to
> hold. But wouldn't it be great to lower the bar just a little, and offer
> some guidance as to which links one should click?
>
> I'd like to see several things:
>
> 1) On the front page, where it says "We offer two Linux distros:", there
> would be at least some hint of what this choice entails
>
> 2) On the download page - https://www.centos.org/centos-linux/ - a
> little explanation of what the various options there are.
>
> So far, this is all just edits to centos.org. The next two steps involve
> pushing changes to the mirror network, and I honestly have no idea what
> is involved there.
>
> 3) Adding phrasing to
> http://isoredirect.centos.org/centos/8/isos/x86_64/ that indicates what
> that inscrutable list of links means.
>
> and finally, possibly not even possible:
>
> 4) Add words to http://centos4.zswap.net/8.2.2004/isos/x86_64/ (as a
> random example) that say what the various options mean. This is probably
> not possible, since these are just autoindex generated pages. We could,
> however, offer Apache httpd and nginx configuration recommendations
> which will provide that additional information for sites that chose to
> follow the instructions.
>
> And, really, #1 and #2 are the most important here.
>
> The full message follows:
>
>  >>
> I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me
> some sort of answer.
> I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located
> a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring
> varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I
> have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how
> do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed
> to know what they are looking for.
> When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with
> ".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely
> candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no
> idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave
> CentOs to the experts?
> I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user
> level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone
> who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very
> unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended
> user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to
> choose which version of CentOs to use?
> If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to
> answer my question, I will be grateful.
> <<
>
> _______________________________________________
> CentOS-docs mailing list
> CentOS-docs at centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
>
-------------- next part --------------
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From rbowen at redhat.com  Mon Aug 17 20:30:06 2020
From: rbowen at redhat.com (Rich Bowen)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 16:30:06 -0400
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Installing CentOS - user feedback
In-Reply-To: <CACR6vxF6Z4puUH19A+bLdBR4NFrDph4fNOsfzQ7HxaT-Za2ZAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
 <CACR6vxF6Z4puUH19A+bLdBR4NFrDph4fNOsfzQ7HxaT-Za2ZAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c8897642-20ef-c9b7-26ab-e6a057a27c26@redhat.com>



On 8/17/20 4:19 PM, Thibaut Perrin wrote:
> Hi Rich,
> 
> Just for 1), when you choose the distro you want, written in white on 
> blue on top of that you have a phrasing that describes (agreed, it could 
> be better positioned, but it's there) :
> CentOS Linux
> => Consistent, manageable platform that suits a wide variety of 
> deployments. For some open source communities, it is a solid, 
> predictable base to build upon.
> 
> CentOS Stream
> => Rolling-release distro that tracks just ahead of Red Hat Enterprise 
> Linux (RHEL) development, positioned as a midstream between Fedora Linux 
> and RHEL. For anyone interested in participating and collaborating in 
> the RHEL ecosystem, CentOS Stream is your reliable platform for innovation.

Yes, these are good, but are both *after* you've made the choice of 
which button to click. I have been told (not in writing, but just at 
events) that it's not clear why one would pick one or the other. Maybe 
we could do a shorter form of those as a mouseover?

> 
> I agree on the missing points,?and also the "Documentation" page 
> includes doc for 7 & 8, even if you're on the?6.10 choice. Which means 
> there's not even documentation links for 6 while it's still possible to 
> download it ?

Oops. I hadn't noticed that. Although, we're just 2 months out from 6 
EOL, so probably not something we're going to spend much time fixing, 
I'd guess?

> 
> On the other points, once you choose x86_64, there should be more 
> guidance on the mirror page I'd say. You'll find the following ISO 
> files, here is a list of which you'll find and what usage.
> Maybe the mirror parent page could include a readme or a redirect to the 
> ISO page as well for that matter ?
> 
> I think the fewest places the info is stored, the less likely we'll 
> forget an update when there is one.

Definitely, I agree.


> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 10:04 PM Rich Bowen <rbowen at redhat.com 
> <mailto:rbowen at redhat.com>> wrote:
> 
>     A few days ago I got email from a user who was attempting to install
>     CentOS. I've included their full message below, but, to summarize, when
>     one clicks on the "CentOS Linux" link on the front page of
>     centos.org <http://centos.org>
>     one is given a matrix of choices, and no guidance. On choosing one
>     option - say, x84_64 ISO, one is then given another list of options and
>     no guidance. Pick one of *those* options and you are yet again given a
>     list of options and no guidance.
> 
>     Now, it could be argued that someone who doesn't know what to choose is
>     not our target audience, and I suppose that would be an ok position to
>     hold. But wouldn't it be great to lower the bar just a little, and
>     offer
>     some guidance as to which links one should click?
> 
>     I'd like to see several things:
> 
>     1) On the front page, where it says "We offer two Linux distros:",
>     there
>     would be at least some hint of what this choice entails
> 
>     2) On the download page - https://www.centos.org/centos-linux/ - a
>     little explanation of what the various options there are.
> 
>     So far, this is all just edits to centos.org <http://centos.org>.
>     The next two steps involve
>     pushing changes to the mirror network, and I honestly have no idea what
>     is involved there.
> 
>     3) Adding phrasing to
>     http://isoredirect.centos.org/centos/8/isos/x86_64/ that indicates what
>     that inscrutable list of links means.
> 
>     and finally, possibly not even possible:
> 
>     4) Add words to http://centos4.zswap.net/8.2.2004/isos/x86_64/ (as a
>     random example) that say what the various options mean. This is
>     probably
>     not possible, since these are just autoindex generated pages. We could,
>     however, offer Apache httpd and nginx configuration recommendations
>     which will provide that additional information for sites that chose to
>     follow the instructions.
> 
>     And, really, #1 and #2 are the most important here.
> 
>     The full message follows:
> 
>      ?>>
>     I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me
>     some sort of answer.
>     I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located
>     a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring
>     varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I
>     have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how
>     do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed
>     to know what they are looking for.
>     When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with
>     ".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely
>     candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no
>     idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave
>     CentOs to the experts?
>     I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user
>     level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone
>     who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very
>     unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended
>     user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to
>     choose which version of CentOs to use?
>     If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to
>     answer my question, I will be grateful.
>     <<
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     CentOS-docs mailing list
>     CentOS-docs at centos.org <mailto:CentOS-docs at centos.org>
>     https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> CentOS-docs mailing list
> CentOS-docs at centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
> 



From wolfy at nobugconsulting.ro  Mon Aug 17 23:34:59 2020
From: wolfy at nobugconsulting.ro (Manuel Wolfshant)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 02:34:59 +0300
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Installing CentOS - user feedback
In-Reply-To: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
References: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <7dbb55e7-000e-ad14-30c3-201bcefa848d@nobugconsulting.ro>

On 8/17/20 11:04 PM, Rich Bowen wrote:
> A few days ago I got email from a user who was attempting to install 
> CentOS. I've included their full message below, but, to summarize, 
> when one clicks on the "CentOS Linux" link on the front page of 
> centos.org one is given a matrix of choices, and no guidance. On 
> choosing one option - say, x84_64 ISO, one is then given another list 
> of options and no guidance. Pick one of *those* options and you are 
> yet again given a list of options and no guidance.
>
> Now, it could be argued that someone who doesn't know what to choose 
> is not our target audience, and I suppose that would be an ok position 
> to hold. But wouldn't it be great to lower the bar just a little, and 
> offer some guidance as to which links one should click?
>
> I'd like to see several things:
>
> 1) On the front page, where it says "We offer two Linux distros:", 
> there would be at least some hint of what this choice entails
>
> 2) On the download page - https://www.centos.org/centos-linux/ - a 
> little explanation of what the various options there are.
>
> So far, this is all just edits to centos.org. The next two steps 
> involve pushing changes to the mirror network, and I honestly have no 
> idea what is involved there.
>
> 3) Adding phrasing to 
> http://isoredirect.centos.org/centos/8/isos/x86_64/ that indicates 
> what that inscrutable list of links means.
>
> and finally, possibly not even possible:
>
> 4) Add words to http://centos4.zswap.net/8.2.2004/isos/x86_64/ (as a 
> random example) that say what the various options mean. This is 
> probably not possible, since these are just autoindex generated pages. 
> We could, however, offer Apache httpd and nginx configuration 
> recommendations which will provide that additional information for 
> sites that chose to follow the instructions.
>
> And, really, #1 and #2 are the most important here.
>
Rich, I fully agree with that user and frankly, I command him for 
reaching out and telling you ( and us ) his concerns. I for one would 
have quit and not looked back. Been there, done that.

Leaving that aside, AFAIK the main web site is not under community 
control. It was taken over by RedHat eons ago ( not that it was 
accessible for us, the members of the CentOS teams, before that anyway ) 
and I bet that there are most 5 people who can modify it. If memory 
serves I am part of the wiki translation team for 12 years or so and 
AFAIK none of those who can edit the wiki had ever had any sort of 
influence on the pages published on www.c.o. We actually had to _beg_ to 
have links in the main website point to the wiki ( which _was_ under our 
control ) so that we could publish information we thought that 
could/would be useful for the users.


In an ideal world, we would have some sort of AJAX that would 
dynamically describe each and every iso link on the main pages of the 
web site. But that's a job for web designers and content publishers. I 
fully recommend to whoever will be tasked with this project to look at 
the wiki maintained by the arch community. THAT is how things should be 
done, from my point of view. And, with all due respect, I mean that as 
opposed to access.r.c and www.r.c which are awful to navigate unless you 
know exactly what you want.. and sometimes not even then.

wolfy


PS: I created the very very first 0_README.txt file that is now included 
in the isos/$ARCH folder. A file which usually is ignored for the simple 
reason that end users almost never reach it but whose content should be 
published BEFORE the users attempt to download an iso.



> The full message follows:
>
> >>
> I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me
> some sort of answer.
> I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located
> a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring
> varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I
> have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how
> do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed
> to know what they are looking for.
> When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with
> ".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely
> candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no
> idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave
> CentOs to the experts?
> I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user
> level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone
> who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very
> unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended
> user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to
> choose which version of CentOs to use?
> If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to
> answer my question, I will be grateful.
> <<
>
> _______________________________________________
> CentOS-docs mailing list
> CentOS-docs at centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs




From wolfy at nobugconsulting.ro  Mon Aug 17 23:41:09 2020
From: wolfy at nobugconsulting.ro (Manuel Wolfshant)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 02:41:09 +0300
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Installing CentOS - user feedback
In-Reply-To: <7dbb55e7-000e-ad14-30c3-201bcefa848d@nobugconsulting.ro>
References: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
 <7dbb55e7-000e-ad14-30c3-201bcefa848d@nobugconsulting.ro>
Message-ID: <9fd4ff07-1981-51b3-7fcf-ede9e6195b45@nobugconsulting.ro>

On 8/18/20 2:34 AM, Manuel Wolfshant wrote:
> On 8/17/20 11:04 PM, Rich Bowen wrote:
>> A few days ago I got email from a user who was attempting to install 
>> CentOS. I've included their full message below, but, to summarize, 
>> when one clicks on the "CentOS Linux" link on the front page of 
>> centos.org one is given a matrix of choices, and no guidance. On 
>> choosing one option - say, x84_64 ISO, one is then given another list 
>> of options and no guidance. Pick one of *those* options and you are 
>> yet again given a list of options and no guidance.
>>
>> Now, it could be argued that someone who doesn't know what to choose 
>> is not our target audience, and I suppose that would be an ok 
>> position to hold. But wouldn't it be great to lower the bar just a 
>> little, and offer some guidance as to which links one should click?
>>
>> I'd like to see several things:
>>
>> 1) On the front page, where it says "We offer two Linux distros:", 
>> there would be at least some hint of what this choice entails
>>
>> 2) On the download page - https://www.centos.org/centos-linux/ - a 
>> little explanation of what the various options there are.
>>
>> So far, this is all just edits to centos.org. The next two steps 
>> involve pushing changes to the mirror network, and I honestly have no 
>> idea what is involved there.
>>
>> 3) Adding phrasing to 
>> http://isoredirect.centos.org/centos/8/isos/x86_64/ that indicates 
>> what that inscrutable list of links means.
>>
>> and finally, possibly not even possible:
>>
>> 4) Add words to http://centos4.zswap.net/8.2.2004/isos/x86_64/ (as a 
>> random example) that say what the various options mean. This is 
>> probably not possible, since these are just autoindex generated 
>> pages. We could, however, offer Apache httpd and nginx configuration 
>> recommendations which will provide that additional information for 
>> sites that chose to follow the instructions.


Oh, sweet. I just noticed that below the /8/isos tree there is no 
description similar to 
http://centos4.zswap.net/7/isos/x86_64/0_README.txt. Wonderful choice, 
dropping each and every hint that [barely] existed.


>>
>> And, really, #1 and #2 are the most important here.
>>
> Rich, I fully agree with that user and frankly, I command him for 
> reaching out and telling you ( and us ) his concerns. I for one would 
> have quit and not looked back. Been there, done that.
>
> Leaving that aside, AFAIK the main web site is not under community 
> control. It was taken over by RedHat eons ago ( not that it was 
> accessible for us, the members of the CentOS teams, before that anyway 
> ) and I bet that there are most 5 people who can modify it. If memory 
> serves I am part of the wiki translation team for 12 years or so and 
> AFAIK none of those who can edit the wiki had ever had any sort of 
> influence on the pages published on www.c.o. We actually had to _beg_ 
> to have links in the main website point to the wiki ( which _was_ 
> under our control ) so that we could publish information we thought 
> that could/would be useful for the users.
>
>
> In an ideal world, we would have some sort of AJAX that would 
> dynamically describe each and every iso link on the main pages of the 
> web site. But that's a job for web designers and content publishers. I 
> fully recommend to whoever will be tasked with this project to look at 
> the wiki maintained by the arch community. THAT is how things should 
> be done, from my point of view. And, with all due respect, I mean that 
> as opposed to access.r.c and www.r.c which are awful to navigate 
> unless you know exactly what you want.. and sometimes not even then.
>
> wolfy
>
>
> PS: I created the very very first 0_README.txt file that is now 
> included in the isos/$ARCH folder. A file which usually is ignored for 
> the simple reason that end users almost never reach it but whose 
> content should be published BEFORE the users attempt to download an iso.
>
>
>
>> The full message follows:
>>
>> >>
>> I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me
>> some sort of answer.
>> I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located
>> a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring
>> varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I
>> have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how
>> do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed
>> to know what they are looking for.
>> When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with
>> ".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely
>> candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no
>> idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave
>> CentOs to the experts?
>> I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user
>> level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone
>> who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very
>> unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended
>> user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to
>> choose which version of CentOs to use?
>> If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to
>> answer my question, I will be grateful.
>> <<



From rbowen at redhat.com  Tue Aug 18 14:01:03 2020
From: rbowen at redhat.com (Rich Bowen)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 10:01:03 -0400
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Installing CentOS - user feedback
In-Reply-To: <7dbb55e7-000e-ad14-30c3-201bcefa848d@nobugconsulting.ro>
References: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
 <7dbb55e7-000e-ad14-30c3-201bcefa848d@nobugconsulting.ro>
Message-ID: <2c9bc431-5f5e-00a5-ee1c-600afadce6de@redhat.com>



On 8/17/20 7:34 PM, Manuel Wolfshant wrote:

> Leaving that aside, AFAIK the main web site is not under community 
> control. It was taken over by RedHat eons ago ( not that it was 
> accessible for us, the members of the CentOS teams, before that anyway ) 
> and I bet that there are most 5 people who can modify it. If memory 
> serves I am part of the wiki translation team for 12 years or so and 
> AFAIK none of those who can edit the wiki had ever had any sort of 
> influence on the pages published on www.c.o. We actually had to _beg_ to 
> have links in the main website point to the wiki ( which _was_ under our 
> control ) so that we could publish information we thought that 
> could/would be useful for the users.

FYI: Anyone can submit pull requests at 
https://git.centos.org/centos/centos.org

> 
> 
> In an ideal world, we would have some sort of AJAX that would 
> dynamically describe each and every iso link on the main pages of the 
> web site. But that's a job for web designers and content publishers. I 
> fully recommend to whoever will be tasked with this project to look at 
> the wiki maintained by the arch community. THAT is how things should be 
> done, from my point of view. And, with all due respect, I mean that as 
> opposed to access.r.c and www.r.c which are awful to navigate unless you 
> know exactly what you want.. and sometimes not even then.
> 
> wolfy
> 
> 
> PS: I created the very very first 0_README.txt file that is now included 
> in the isos/$ARCH folder. A file which usually is ignored for the simple 
> reason that end users almost never reach it but whose content should be 
> published BEFORE the users attempt to download an iso.
> 
> 
> 
>> The full message follows:
>>
>> >>
>> I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me
>> some sort of answer.
>> I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located
>> a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring
>> varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I
>> have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how
>> do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed
>> to know what they are looking for.
>> When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with
>> ".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely
>> candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no
>> idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave
>> CentOs to the experts?
>> I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user
>> level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone
>> who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very
>> unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended
>> user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to
>> choose which version of CentOs to use?
>> If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to
>> answer my question, I will be grateful.
>> <<
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CentOS-docs mailing list
>> CentOS-docs at centos.org
>> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> CentOS-docs mailing list
> CentOS-docs at centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
> 



From git at centos.org  Thu Aug 27 15:29:30 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 15:29:30 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (622617c ->
	b2cf591)
Message-ID: <20200827152930.14861.33957@ip-8-43-84-211.rdu2c.centos.org>

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    from 622617c  Updated gpg keys list with new Infra key
     add b2cf591  Replace missing licensing policy doc

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From git at centos.org  Thu Aug 27 18:14:08 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 18:14:08 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (b2cf591 ->
	d408e8c)
Message-ID: <20200827181408.19591.89198@ip-8-43-84-211.rdu2c.centos.org>

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    from b2cf591  Replace missing licensing policy doc
     add d408e8c  Date is now accurate for the original file. - This file was lost from the website in a migration. - Rich recreated this file and put in the date of 2020-04-10 as a placeholder - I looked into my local checkout and am fixing the date here

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From git at centos.org  Thu Aug 27 19:55:05 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 19:55:05 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (d408e8c ->
	397faa6)
Message-ID: <20200827195505.6811.47968@ip-8-43-84-211.rdu2c.centos.org>

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    from d408e8c  Date is now accurate for the original file. - This file was lost from the website in a migration. - Rich recreated this file and put in the date of 2020-04-10 as a placeholder - I looked into my local checkout and am fixing the date here
     add 397faa6  Calendar updates

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 community/irc-meetings.ical | 90 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++--------
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From git at centos.org  Fri Aug 28 12:38:06 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 12:38:06 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (397faa6 ->
	da4b999)
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From git at centos.org  Sat Aug 29 06:14:19 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 06:14:19 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated: Backported
 https://github.com/CentOS/Calendar/pull/39/files for calendar rendering
Message-ID: <20200829061419.16811.43580@ip-8-43-84-211.rdu2c.centos.org>

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in repository centos/centos.org.

The following commit(s) were added to refs/heads/master by this push:
     new b881fc0  Backported https://github.com/CentOS/Calendar/pull/39/files for calendar rendering
b881fc0 is described below

commit b881fc0319f0e5b596955ab4ba8e05421384841d
Author: Fabian Arrotin <arrfab at centos.org>
AuthorDate: Sat Aug 29 08:14:11 2020 +0200

    Backported https://github.com/CentOS/Calendar/pull/39/files for calendar rendering
    
    Signed-off-by: Fabian Arrotin <arrfab at centos.org>
---
 community/calendar.md | 8 +++++++-
 1 file changed, 7 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-)

diff --git a/community/calendar.md b/community/calendar.md
index 26d62df..7ca7854 100644
--- a/community/calendar.md
+++ b/community/calendar.md
@@ -1,4 +1,10 @@
-# CentOS IRC meetings
+---
+title: "CentOS IRC meetings"
+title_lead: ""
+layout: page
+permalink: /:path/:basename/index.html
+toc: true
+---
 
 ## Meeting schedule
 

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From billings at negate.org  Mon Aug 31 21:28:58 2020
From: billings at negate.org (Jonathan Billings)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 17:28:58 -0400
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Misleading information on main page about Centos
	Stream
Message-ID: <ED837E68-6118-4DDC-B753-957B6F5DE78B@negate.org>

Not sure if this is a Docs issue or others...

I came across this page:

https://www.centos.org/centos-stream/

> CentOS Steam
> 
> Rolling-release distro that tracks just ahead of Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL) development, positioned as a midstream between Fedora Linux and RHEL. For anyone interested in participating and collaborating in the RHEL ecosystem, CentOS Stream is your reliable platform for innovation.

This is pretty misleading. Isn?t Stream just a collection of repos that offer pre-release packages for the next RHEL point release?  It?s not a midstream between Fedora and RHEL. 
--
Jonathan Billings <billings at negate.org>
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From git at centos.org  Mon Aug  3 16:47:22 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 16:47:22 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (c10c954 ->
	32db764)
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    from c10c954  fix nfv schedule
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From git at centos.org  Mon Aug  3 16:48:08 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 16:48:08 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (32db764 ->
	11ef743)
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    from 32db764  Typo
     add 11ef743  Update calendars.

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From git at centos.org  Wed Aug 12 14:36:50 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:36:50 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (11ef743 ->
	5924358)
Message-ID: <20200812143650.31545.57734@ip-8-43-84-211.rdu2c.centos.org>

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    from 11ef743  Update calendars.
     add 5924358  calendars

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 community/irc-meetings.ical | 16 ++++++++--------
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From git at centos.org  Thu Aug 13 13:29:12 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:29:12 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated: Updated
 gpg keys list with new Infra key
Message-ID: <20200813132912.7245.92225@ip-8-43-84-211.rdu2c.centos.org>

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arrfab pushed a commit to branch master
in repository centos/centos.org.

The following commit(s) were added to refs/heads/master by this push:
     new 622617c  Updated gpg keys list with new Infra key
622617c is described below

commit 622617c6ac68f8200f2cc8153ce14ecdaac7e3f7
Author: Fabian Arrotin <arrfab at centos.org>
AuthorDate: Thu Aug 13 15:29:05 2020 +0200

    Updated gpg keys list with new Infra key
    
    Signed-off-by: Fabian Arrotin <arrfab at centos.org>
---
 keys.md                           |  8 ++++++++
 keys/RPM-GPG-KEY-CentOS-SIG-Infra | 32 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 2 files changed, 40 insertions(+)

diff --git a/keys.md b/keys.md
index 44688bf..d9c505b 100644
--- a/keys.md
+++ b/keys.md
@@ -160,6 +160,12 @@ The following keys are used to sign community led efforts within the CentOS Proj
     pub  2048R/2F297ECC 2016-05-18 CentOS PaaS SIG (https://wiki.centos.org/SpecialInterestGroup/PaaS) <security at centos.org>
     Key fingerprint = C5E8 AB44 6FA7 893D 7490  51F1 C34C 5BD4 2F29 7ECC
 
+#### Infra SIG
+[download key ](/keys/RPM-GPG-KEY-CentOS-SIG-Infra)
+
+    pub 2048R/F56D1621 2020-08-13 CentOS Infra SIG (https://wiki.centos.org/SpecialInterestGroup/Core) <security at centos.org>
+    Key fingerprint = 2F3B 7058 BCFA C3AB 0C72  B1BC 8B44 4FCE F56D 1621
+
 ### AltArch keys
 
 Community driven ports of CentOS to other platforms.
@@ -181,3 +187,5 @@ Community driven ports of CentOS to other platforms.
 
     pub  2048R/F533F4FA 2015-11-27 CentOS AltArch SIG - PowerPC (https://wiki.centos.org/SpecialInterestGroup/AltArch) <security at centos.org>
     Key fingerprint = BAFA 3436 FC50 768E 3C3C  2E4E A963 BBDB F533 F4FA
+
+
diff --git a/keys/RPM-GPG-KEY-CentOS-SIG-Infra b/keys/RPM-GPG-KEY-CentOS-SIG-Infra
new file mode 100644
index 0000000..a366504
--- /dev/null
+++ b/keys/RPM-GPG-KEY-CentOS-SIG-Infra
@@ -0,0 +1,32 @@
+-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
+Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
+
+mQENBF81MQoBCADdqd33HEmIacxp/JjeqG4BpJlS3LAQ6sF/B4FL0lUdWOh7QakR
+E7V4JsvqdOqZtEYa/L5GbMX9yhWBYwEPavDkDImMCisrbtTUIH37GlrWy2p17yBE
+IyUUlUWQs0SJtXuPv2y5wp38LucYubMJX/DI6sxd7MULv5cLsJnRuZxua2XSgE4a
+cRjtrG5IyUgQhtjP11RJeuJXtrga4FmYWuCTLFRoQW7W6O4JgB0fPI+vdBLY/VUR
+GIn/MOrFYSFuBPS2Vp5MY3yAmW/x8dyUuJ/VeYFdUT0LI56lOl/OChQW7y4RRCNX
+F3nWcbENp9dTiyeOK1l36RundmmJ6i0igvCjABEBAAG0WkNlbnRPUyBJbmZyYSBT
+SUcgKGh0dHBzOi8vd2lraS5jZW50b3Mub3JnL1NwZWNpYWxJbnRlcmVzdEdyb3Vw
+L0NvcmUpIDxzZWN1cml0eUBjZW50b3Mub3JnPokBOQQTAQIAIwUCXzUxCgIbAwcL
+CQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEItET871bRYh39wH/3inWPDQS0V1
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+Xe32vxs6FjSGci5V6LZ8lfS5gi3/5f0A4UdX4ibZaauV4umI+c4c+QTwlcqFnrkI
++IPHugORPVyfx87hny/R4KDOiJRaVQRLWfWUEtrAmPJPI78XqciOmHK3y1gqqdOI
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+pyK7MIrNA+W7tBpl9X92PiuLmFNKViCUK3Sj/N/4XJHoQ03FXEvHmcB7yZsBfHOr
+sQL4Nb4wJsA+i38cqtGljvK807aYCaImE+NRrkBcaQznsHfKls7pvW2N1t1ll7GR
+0Mx/LMCfQxcPhSWkhsj+BEt/cBNlMeZD4C7RMjuX2ZBY7Y0AEQEAAYkBHwQYAQIA
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+IrhfWhk1aSwhEBnBJR+herI0cQAiW6sAV7/3+GHHSSj2NT745h0rg65+
+=Au+4
+-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
+

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From rbowen at redhat.com  Mon Aug 17 19:54:01 2020
From: rbowen at redhat.com (Rich Bowen)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 15:54:01 -0400
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Documentation SIG: Participation wanted
In-Reply-To: <6f5fee6c-95ab-a4e4-44ea-3ac7b78d90de@redhat.com>
References: <6f5fee6c-95ab-a4e4-44ea-3ac7b78d90de@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <a0c34817-9c6a-b9d2-e7f1-68c755b47715@redhat.com>

Sorry, folks, i know I have made zero progress on this. The last two 
months have been unexpectedly busy. I hope to get back to this soon, 
unless someone wants to pick up the charge.

On 6/30/20 2:20 PM, Rich Bowen wrote:
> Hi, folks,
> 
> I've been working through the CentOS wiki for more than a year now, 
> trying to identify and fix outdated/wrong/obsolete content. It's a 
> daunting task, and I'm losing.
> 
> I would very much like to gather a group of people who are:
> 
> * Knowledgeable about CentOS
> * Good with words
> * Have a little time
> 
> who would be willing and able to review the content of the wiki, and fix 
> the bits that are incorrect.
> 
> The CentOS Documentation SIG (which doesn't actually exist in any 
> meaningful way) is, according to the wiki:
> 
> responsible for the content of the Wiki, and other public sources of 
> documentation. This includes, but is not limited to:
> 
> * Determining, and imposing, a hierarchy/architecture of content in the 
> wiki
> * Editing/pruning existing content when it is incorrect/outdated/obsolete
> * Recruiting subject matter experts to do some of that editing
> * Recruiting translators to keep our various translations in sync
> 
> [Ref: https://wiki.centos.org/SpecialInterestGroup/Documentation ]
> 
> If any of the above appeals to you, I would ask you to let me know. I 
> would like to create a SIG around the wiki. Please let me know if you're 
> interested. I know that there are a number of you who are consistently 
> active on this list. I would like to find a way to give us a little more 
> power/authority over the wiki to make higher-level editorial decisions 
> about information architecture. Also, having a formal SIG might be a way 
> to engage more people to join the effort and dedicate some time to it.
> 



From rbowen at redhat.com  Mon Aug 17 20:04:09 2020
From: rbowen at redhat.com (Rich Bowen)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 16:04:09 -0400
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Installing CentOS - user feedback
Message-ID: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>

A few days ago I got email from a user who was attempting to install 
CentOS. I've included their full message below, but, to summarize, when 
one clicks on the "CentOS Linux" link on the front page of centos.org 
one is given a matrix of choices, and no guidance. On choosing one 
option - say, x84_64 ISO, one is then given another list of options and 
no guidance. Pick one of *those* options and you are yet again given a 
list of options and no guidance.

Now, it could be argued that someone who doesn't know what to choose is 
not our target audience, and I suppose that would be an ok position to 
hold. But wouldn't it be great to lower the bar just a little, and offer 
some guidance as to which links one should click?

I'd like to see several things:

1) On the front page, where it says "We offer two Linux distros:", there 
would be at least some hint of what this choice entails

2) On the download page - https://www.centos.org/centos-linux/ - a 
little explanation of what the various options there are.

So far, this is all just edits to centos.org. The next two steps involve 
pushing changes to the mirror network, and I honestly have no idea what 
is involved there.

3) Adding phrasing to 
http://isoredirect.centos.org/centos/8/isos/x86_64/ that indicates what 
that inscrutable list of links means.

and finally, possibly not even possible:

4) Add words to http://centos4.zswap.net/8.2.2004/isos/x86_64/ (as a 
random example) that say what the various options mean. This is probably 
not possible, since these are just autoindex generated pages. We could, 
however, offer Apache httpd and nginx configuration recommendations 
which will provide that additional information for sites that chose to 
follow the instructions.

And, really, #1 and #2 are the most important here.

The full message follows:

 >>
I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me
some sort of answer.
I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located
a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring
varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I
have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how
do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed
to know what they are looking for.
When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with
".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely
candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no
idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave
CentOs to the experts?
I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user
level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone
who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very
unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended
user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to
choose which version of CentOs to use?
If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to
answer my question, I will be grateful.
<<



From thibaut.perrin at gmail.com  Mon Aug 17 20:19:43 2020
From: thibaut.perrin at gmail.com (Thibaut Perrin)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 22:19:43 +0200
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Installing CentOS - user feedback
In-Reply-To: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
References: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <CACR6vxF6Z4puUH19A+bLdBR4NFrDph4fNOsfzQ7HxaT-Za2ZAA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Rich,

Just for 1), when you choose the distro you want, written in white on blue
on top of that you have a phrasing that describes (agreed, it could be
better positioned, but it's there) :
CentOS Linux
=> Consistent, manageable platform that suits a wide variety of
deployments. For some open source communities, it is a solid, predictable
base to build upon.

CentOS Stream
=> Rolling-release distro that tracks just ahead of Red Hat Enterprise
Linux (RHEL) development, positioned as a midstream between Fedora Linux
and RHEL. For anyone interested in participating and collaborating in the
RHEL ecosystem, CentOS Stream is your reliable platform for innovation.

I agree on the missing points, and also the "Documentation" page includes
doc for 7 & 8, even if you're on the 6.10 choice. Which means there's not
even documentation links for 6 while it's still possible to download it ?

On the other points, once you choose x86_64, there should be more guidance
on the mirror page I'd say. You'll find the following ISO files, here is a
list of which you'll find and what usage.
Maybe the mirror parent page could include a readme or a redirect to the
ISO page as well for that matter ?

I think the fewest places the info is stored, the less likely we'll forget
an update when there is one.

Thanks,


On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 10:04 PM Rich Bowen <rbowen at redhat.com> wrote:

> A few days ago I got email from a user who was attempting to install
> CentOS. I've included their full message below, but, to summarize, when
> one clicks on the "CentOS Linux" link on the front page of centos.org
> one is given a matrix of choices, and no guidance. On choosing one
> option - say, x84_64 ISO, one is then given another list of options and
> no guidance. Pick one of *those* options and you are yet again given a
> list of options and no guidance.
>
> Now, it could be argued that someone who doesn't know what to choose is
> not our target audience, and I suppose that would be an ok position to
> hold. But wouldn't it be great to lower the bar just a little, and offer
> some guidance as to which links one should click?
>
> I'd like to see several things:
>
> 1) On the front page, where it says "We offer two Linux distros:", there
> would be at least some hint of what this choice entails
>
> 2) On the download page - https://www.centos.org/centos-linux/ - a
> little explanation of what the various options there are.
>
> So far, this is all just edits to centos.org. The next two steps involve
> pushing changes to the mirror network, and I honestly have no idea what
> is involved there.
>
> 3) Adding phrasing to
> http://isoredirect.centos.org/centos/8/isos/x86_64/ that indicates what
> that inscrutable list of links means.
>
> and finally, possibly not even possible:
>
> 4) Add words to http://centos4.zswap.net/8.2.2004/isos/x86_64/ (as a
> random example) that say what the various options mean. This is probably
> not possible, since these are just autoindex generated pages. We could,
> however, offer Apache httpd and nginx configuration recommendations
> which will provide that additional information for sites that chose to
> follow the instructions.
>
> And, really, #1 and #2 are the most important here.
>
> The full message follows:
>
>  >>
> I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me
> some sort of answer.
> I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located
> a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring
> varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I
> have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how
> do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed
> to know what they are looking for.
> When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with
> ".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely
> candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no
> idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave
> CentOs to the experts?
> I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user
> level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone
> who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very
> unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended
> user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to
> choose which version of CentOs to use?
> If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to
> answer my question, I will be grateful.
> <<
>
> _______________________________________________
> CentOS-docs mailing list
> CentOS-docs at centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
>
-------------- next part --------------
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From rbowen at redhat.com  Mon Aug 17 20:30:06 2020
From: rbowen at redhat.com (Rich Bowen)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 16:30:06 -0400
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Installing CentOS - user feedback
In-Reply-To: <CACR6vxF6Z4puUH19A+bLdBR4NFrDph4fNOsfzQ7HxaT-Za2ZAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
 <CACR6vxF6Z4puUH19A+bLdBR4NFrDph4fNOsfzQ7HxaT-Za2ZAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c8897642-20ef-c9b7-26ab-e6a057a27c26@redhat.com>



On 8/17/20 4:19 PM, Thibaut Perrin wrote:
> Hi Rich,
> 
> Just for 1), when you choose the distro you want, written in white on 
> blue on top of that you have a phrasing that describes (agreed, it could 
> be better positioned, but it's there) :
> CentOS Linux
> => Consistent, manageable platform that suits a wide variety of 
> deployments. For some open source communities, it is a solid, 
> predictable base to build upon.
> 
> CentOS Stream
> => Rolling-release distro that tracks just ahead of Red Hat Enterprise 
> Linux (RHEL) development, positioned as a midstream between Fedora Linux 
> and RHEL. For anyone interested in participating and collaborating in 
> the RHEL ecosystem, CentOS Stream is your reliable platform for innovation.

Yes, these are good, but are both *after* you've made the choice of 
which button to click. I have been told (not in writing, but just at 
events) that it's not clear why one would pick one or the other. Maybe 
we could do a shorter form of those as a mouseover?

> 
> I agree on the missing points,?and also the "Documentation" page 
> includes doc for 7 & 8, even if you're on the?6.10 choice. Which means 
> there's not even documentation links for 6 while it's still possible to 
> download it ?

Oops. I hadn't noticed that. Although, we're just 2 months out from 6 
EOL, so probably not something we're going to spend much time fixing, 
I'd guess?

> 
> On the other points, once you choose x86_64, there should be more 
> guidance on the mirror page I'd say. You'll find the following ISO 
> files, here is a list of which you'll find and what usage.
> Maybe the mirror parent page could include a readme or a redirect to the 
> ISO page as well for that matter ?
> 
> I think the fewest places the info is stored, the less likely we'll 
> forget an update when there is one.

Definitely, I agree.


> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 10:04 PM Rich Bowen <rbowen at redhat.com 
> <mailto:rbowen at redhat.com>> wrote:
> 
>     A few days ago I got email from a user who was attempting to install
>     CentOS. I've included their full message below, but, to summarize, when
>     one clicks on the "CentOS Linux" link on the front page of
>     centos.org <http://centos.org>
>     one is given a matrix of choices, and no guidance. On choosing one
>     option - say, x84_64 ISO, one is then given another list of options and
>     no guidance. Pick one of *those* options and you are yet again given a
>     list of options and no guidance.
> 
>     Now, it could be argued that someone who doesn't know what to choose is
>     not our target audience, and I suppose that would be an ok position to
>     hold. But wouldn't it be great to lower the bar just a little, and
>     offer
>     some guidance as to which links one should click?
> 
>     I'd like to see several things:
> 
>     1) On the front page, where it says "We offer two Linux distros:",
>     there
>     would be at least some hint of what this choice entails
> 
>     2) On the download page - https://www.centos.org/centos-linux/ - a
>     little explanation of what the various options there are.
> 
>     So far, this is all just edits to centos.org <http://centos.org>.
>     The next two steps involve
>     pushing changes to the mirror network, and I honestly have no idea what
>     is involved there.
> 
>     3) Adding phrasing to
>     http://isoredirect.centos.org/centos/8/isos/x86_64/ that indicates what
>     that inscrutable list of links means.
> 
>     and finally, possibly not even possible:
> 
>     4) Add words to http://centos4.zswap.net/8.2.2004/isos/x86_64/ (as a
>     random example) that say what the various options mean. This is
>     probably
>     not possible, since these are just autoindex generated pages. We could,
>     however, offer Apache httpd and nginx configuration recommendations
>     which will provide that additional information for sites that chose to
>     follow the instructions.
> 
>     And, really, #1 and #2 are the most important here.
> 
>     The full message follows:
> 
>      ?>>
>     I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me
>     some sort of answer.
>     I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located
>     a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring
>     varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I
>     have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how
>     do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed
>     to know what they are looking for.
>     When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with
>     ".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely
>     candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no
>     idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave
>     CentOs to the experts?
>     I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user
>     level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone
>     who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very
>     unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended
>     user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to
>     choose which version of CentOs to use?
>     If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to
>     answer my question, I will be grateful.
>     <<
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     CentOS-docs mailing list
>     CentOS-docs at centos.org <mailto:CentOS-docs at centos.org>
>     https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> CentOS-docs mailing list
> CentOS-docs at centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
> 



From wolfy at nobugconsulting.ro  Mon Aug 17 23:34:59 2020
From: wolfy at nobugconsulting.ro (Manuel Wolfshant)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 02:34:59 +0300
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Installing CentOS - user feedback
In-Reply-To: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
References: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <7dbb55e7-000e-ad14-30c3-201bcefa848d@nobugconsulting.ro>

On 8/17/20 11:04 PM, Rich Bowen wrote:
> A few days ago I got email from a user who was attempting to install 
> CentOS. I've included their full message below, but, to summarize, 
> when one clicks on the "CentOS Linux" link on the front page of 
> centos.org one is given a matrix of choices, and no guidance. On 
> choosing one option - say, x84_64 ISO, one is then given another list 
> of options and no guidance. Pick one of *those* options and you are 
> yet again given a list of options and no guidance.
>
> Now, it could be argued that someone who doesn't know what to choose 
> is not our target audience, and I suppose that would be an ok position 
> to hold. But wouldn't it be great to lower the bar just a little, and 
> offer some guidance as to which links one should click?
>
> I'd like to see several things:
>
> 1) On the front page, where it says "We offer two Linux distros:", 
> there would be at least some hint of what this choice entails
>
> 2) On the download page - https://www.centos.org/centos-linux/ - a 
> little explanation of what the various options there are.
>
> So far, this is all just edits to centos.org. The next two steps 
> involve pushing changes to the mirror network, and I honestly have no 
> idea what is involved there.
>
> 3) Adding phrasing to 
> http://isoredirect.centos.org/centos/8/isos/x86_64/ that indicates 
> what that inscrutable list of links means.
>
> and finally, possibly not even possible:
>
> 4) Add words to http://centos4.zswap.net/8.2.2004/isos/x86_64/ (as a 
> random example) that say what the various options mean. This is 
> probably not possible, since these are just autoindex generated pages. 
> We could, however, offer Apache httpd and nginx configuration 
> recommendations which will provide that additional information for 
> sites that chose to follow the instructions.
>
> And, really, #1 and #2 are the most important here.
>
Rich, I fully agree with that user and frankly, I command him for 
reaching out and telling you ( and us ) his concerns. I for one would 
have quit and not looked back. Been there, done that.

Leaving that aside, AFAIK the main web site is not under community 
control. It was taken over by RedHat eons ago ( not that it was 
accessible for us, the members of the CentOS teams, before that anyway ) 
and I bet that there are most 5 people who can modify it. If memory 
serves I am part of the wiki translation team for 12 years or so and 
AFAIK none of those who can edit the wiki had ever had any sort of 
influence on the pages published on www.c.o. We actually had to _beg_ to 
have links in the main website point to the wiki ( which _was_ under our 
control ) so that we could publish information we thought that 
could/would be useful for the users.


In an ideal world, we would have some sort of AJAX that would 
dynamically describe each and every iso link on the main pages of the 
web site. But that's a job for web designers and content publishers. I 
fully recommend to whoever will be tasked with this project to look at 
the wiki maintained by the arch community. THAT is how things should be 
done, from my point of view. And, with all due respect, I mean that as 
opposed to access.r.c and www.r.c which are awful to navigate unless you 
know exactly what you want.. and sometimes not even then.

wolfy


PS: I created the very very first 0_README.txt file that is now included 
in the isos/$ARCH folder. A file which usually is ignored for the simple 
reason that end users almost never reach it but whose content should be 
published BEFORE the users attempt to download an iso.



> The full message follows:
>
> >>
> I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me
> some sort of answer.
> I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located
> a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring
> varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I
> have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how
> do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed
> to know what they are looking for.
> When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with
> ".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely
> candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no
> idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave
> CentOs to the experts?
> I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user
> level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone
> who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very
> unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended
> user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to
> choose which version of CentOs to use?
> If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to
> answer my question, I will be grateful.
> <<
>
> _______________________________________________
> CentOS-docs mailing list
> CentOS-docs at centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs




From wolfy at nobugconsulting.ro  Mon Aug 17 23:41:09 2020
From: wolfy at nobugconsulting.ro (Manuel Wolfshant)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 02:41:09 +0300
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Installing CentOS - user feedback
In-Reply-To: <7dbb55e7-000e-ad14-30c3-201bcefa848d@nobugconsulting.ro>
References: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
 <7dbb55e7-000e-ad14-30c3-201bcefa848d@nobugconsulting.ro>
Message-ID: <9fd4ff07-1981-51b3-7fcf-ede9e6195b45@nobugconsulting.ro>

On 8/18/20 2:34 AM, Manuel Wolfshant wrote:
> On 8/17/20 11:04 PM, Rich Bowen wrote:
>> A few days ago I got email from a user who was attempting to install 
>> CentOS. I've included their full message below, but, to summarize, 
>> when one clicks on the "CentOS Linux" link on the front page of 
>> centos.org one is given a matrix of choices, and no guidance. On 
>> choosing one option - say, x84_64 ISO, one is then given another list 
>> of options and no guidance. Pick one of *those* options and you are 
>> yet again given a list of options and no guidance.
>>
>> Now, it could be argued that someone who doesn't know what to choose 
>> is not our target audience, and I suppose that would be an ok 
>> position to hold. But wouldn't it be great to lower the bar just a 
>> little, and offer some guidance as to which links one should click?
>>
>> I'd like to see several things:
>>
>> 1) On the front page, where it says "We offer two Linux distros:", 
>> there would be at least some hint of what this choice entails
>>
>> 2) On the download page - https://www.centos.org/centos-linux/ - a 
>> little explanation of what the various options there are.
>>
>> So far, this is all just edits to centos.org. The next two steps 
>> involve pushing changes to the mirror network, and I honestly have no 
>> idea what is involved there.
>>
>> 3) Adding phrasing to 
>> http://isoredirect.centos.org/centos/8/isos/x86_64/ that indicates 
>> what that inscrutable list of links means.
>>
>> and finally, possibly not even possible:
>>
>> 4) Add words to http://centos4.zswap.net/8.2.2004/isos/x86_64/ (as a 
>> random example) that say what the various options mean. This is 
>> probably not possible, since these are just autoindex generated 
>> pages. We could, however, offer Apache httpd and nginx configuration 
>> recommendations which will provide that additional information for 
>> sites that chose to follow the instructions.


Oh, sweet. I just noticed that below the /8/isos tree there is no 
description similar to 
http://centos4.zswap.net/7/isos/x86_64/0_README.txt. Wonderful choice, 
dropping each and every hint that [barely] existed.


>>
>> And, really, #1 and #2 are the most important here.
>>
> Rich, I fully agree with that user and frankly, I command him for 
> reaching out and telling you ( and us ) his concerns. I for one would 
> have quit and not looked back. Been there, done that.
>
> Leaving that aside, AFAIK the main web site is not under community 
> control. It was taken over by RedHat eons ago ( not that it was 
> accessible for us, the members of the CentOS teams, before that anyway 
> ) and I bet that there are most 5 people who can modify it. If memory 
> serves I am part of the wiki translation team for 12 years or so and 
> AFAIK none of those who can edit the wiki had ever had any sort of 
> influence on the pages published on www.c.o. We actually had to _beg_ 
> to have links in the main website point to the wiki ( which _was_ 
> under our control ) so that we could publish information we thought 
> that could/would be useful for the users.
>
>
> In an ideal world, we would have some sort of AJAX that would 
> dynamically describe each and every iso link on the main pages of the 
> web site. But that's a job for web designers and content publishers. I 
> fully recommend to whoever will be tasked with this project to look at 
> the wiki maintained by the arch community. THAT is how things should 
> be done, from my point of view. And, with all due respect, I mean that 
> as opposed to access.r.c and www.r.c which are awful to navigate 
> unless you know exactly what you want.. and sometimes not even then.
>
> wolfy
>
>
> PS: I created the very very first 0_README.txt file that is now 
> included in the isos/$ARCH folder. A file which usually is ignored for 
> the simple reason that end users almost never reach it but whose 
> content should be published BEFORE the users attempt to download an iso.
>
>
>
>> The full message follows:
>>
>> >>
>> I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me
>> some sort of answer.
>> I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located
>> a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring
>> varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I
>> have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how
>> do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed
>> to know what they are looking for.
>> When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with
>> ".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely
>> candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no
>> idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave
>> CentOs to the experts?
>> I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user
>> level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone
>> who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very
>> unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended
>> user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to
>> choose which version of CentOs to use?
>> If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to
>> answer my question, I will be grateful.
>> <<



From rbowen at redhat.com  Tue Aug 18 14:01:03 2020
From: rbowen at redhat.com (Rich Bowen)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 10:01:03 -0400
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Installing CentOS - user feedback
In-Reply-To: <7dbb55e7-000e-ad14-30c3-201bcefa848d@nobugconsulting.ro>
References: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
 <7dbb55e7-000e-ad14-30c3-201bcefa848d@nobugconsulting.ro>
Message-ID: <2c9bc431-5f5e-00a5-ee1c-600afadce6de@redhat.com>



On 8/17/20 7:34 PM, Manuel Wolfshant wrote:

> Leaving that aside, AFAIK the main web site is not under community 
> control. It was taken over by RedHat eons ago ( not that it was 
> accessible for us, the members of the CentOS teams, before that anyway ) 
> and I bet that there are most 5 people who can modify it. If memory 
> serves I am part of the wiki translation team for 12 years or so and 
> AFAIK none of those who can edit the wiki had ever had any sort of 
> influence on the pages published on www.c.o. We actually had to _beg_ to 
> have links in the main website point to the wiki ( which _was_ under our 
> control ) so that we could publish information we thought that 
> could/would be useful for the users.

FYI: Anyone can submit pull requests at 
https://git.centos.org/centos/centos.org

> 
> 
> In an ideal world, we would have some sort of AJAX that would 
> dynamically describe each and every iso link on the main pages of the 
> web site. But that's a job for web designers and content publishers. I 
> fully recommend to whoever will be tasked with this project to look at 
> the wiki maintained by the arch community. THAT is how things should be 
> done, from my point of view. And, with all due respect, I mean that as 
> opposed to access.r.c and www.r.c which are awful to navigate unless you 
> know exactly what you want.. and sometimes not even then.
> 
> wolfy
> 
> 
> PS: I created the very very first 0_README.txt file that is now included 
> in the isos/$ARCH folder. A file which usually is ignored for the simple 
> reason that end users almost never reach it but whose content should be 
> published BEFORE the users attempt to download an iso.
> 
> 
> 
>> The full message follows:
>>
>> >>
>> I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me
>> some sort of answer.
>> I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located
>> a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring
>> varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I
>> have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how
>> do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed
>> to know what they are looking for.
>> When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with
>> ".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely
>> candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no
>> idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave
>> CentOs to the experts?
>> I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user
>> level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone
>> who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very
>> unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended
>> user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to
>> choose which version of CentOs to use?
>> If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to
>> answer my question, I will be grateful.
>> <<
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CentOS-docs mailing list
>> CentOS-docs at centos.org
>> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> CentOS-docs mailing list
> CentOS-docs at centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
> 



From git at centos.org  Thu Aug 27 15:29:30 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 15:29:30 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (622617c ->
	b2cf591)
Message-ID: <20200827152930.14861.33957@ip-8-43-84-211.rdu2c.centos.org>

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    from 622617c  Updated gpg keys list with new Infra key
     add b2cf591  Replace missing licensing policy doc

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From git at centos.org  Thu Aug 27 18:14:08 2020
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Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 18:14:08 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (b2cf591 ->
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From git at centos.org  Thu Aug 27 19:55:05 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 19:55:05 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (d408e8c ->
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    from d408e8c  Date is now accurate for the original file. - This file was lost from the website in a migration. - Rich recreated this file and put in the date of 2020-04-10 as a placeholder - I looked into my local checkout and am fixing the date here
     add 397faa6  Calendar updates

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From git at centos.org  Fri Aug 28 12:38:06 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 12:38:06 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (397faa6 ->
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From git at centos.org  Sat Aug 29 06:14:19 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 06:14:19 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated: Backported
 https://github.com/CentOS/Calendar/pull/39/files for calendar rendering
Message-ID: <20200829061419.16811.43580@ip-8-43-84-211.rdu2c.centos.org>

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The following commit(s) were added to refs/heads/master by this push:
     new b881fc0  Backported https://github.com/CentOS/Calendar/pull/39/files for calendar rendering
b881fc0 is described below

commit b881fc0319f0e5b596955ab4ba8e05421384841d
Author: Fabian Arrotin <arrfab at centos.org>
AuthorDate: Sat Aug 29 08:14:11 2020 +0200

    Backported https://github.com/CentOS/Calendar/pull/39/files for calendar rendering
    
    Signed-off-by: Fabian Arrotin <arrfab at centos.org>
---
 community/calendar.md | 8 +++++++-
 1 file changed, 7 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-)

diff --git a/community/calendar.md b/community/calendar.md
index 26d62df..7ca7854 100644
--- a/community/calendar.md
+++ b/community/calendar.md
@@ -1,4 +1,10 @@
-# CentOS IRC meetings
+---
+title: "CentOS IRC meetings"
+title_lead: ""
+layout: page
+permalink: /:path/:basename/index.html
+toc: true
+---
 
 ## Meeting schedule
 

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From billings at negate.org  Mon Aug 31 21:28:58 2020
From: billings at negate.org (Jonathan Billings)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 17:28:58 -0400
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Misleading information on main page about Centos
	Stream
Message-ID: <ED837E68-6118-4DDC-B753-957B6F5DE78B@negate.org>

Not sure if this is a Docs issue or others...

I came across this page:

https://www.centos.org/centos-stream/

> CentOS Steam
> 
> Rolling-release distro that tracks just ahead of Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL) development, positioned as a midstream between Fedora Linux and RHEL. For anyone interested in participating and collaborating in the RHEL ecosystem, CentOS Stream is your reliable platform for innovation.

This is pretty misleading. Isn?t Stream just a collection of repos that offer pre-release packages for the next RHEL point release?  It?s not a midstream between Fedora and RHEL. 
--
Jonathan Billings <billings at negate.org>
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From git at centos.org  Mon Aug  3 16:47:22 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 16:47:22 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (c10c954 ->
	32db764)
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    from c10c954  fix nfv schedule
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From git at centos.org  Mon Aug  3 16:48:08 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 16:48:08 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (32db764 ->
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    from 32db764  Typo
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From git at centos.org  Wed Aug 12 14:36:50 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:36:50 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (11ef743 ->
	5924358)
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    from 11ef743  Update calendars.
     add 5924358  calendars

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From git at centos.org  Thu Aug 13 13:29:12 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:29:12 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated: Updated
 gpg keys list with new Infra key
Message-ID: <20200813132912.7245.92225@ip-8-43-84-211.rdu2c.centos.org>

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arrfab pushed a commit to branch master
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The following commit(s) were added to refs/heads/master by this push:
     new 622617c  Updated gpg keys list with new Infra key
622617c is described below

commit 622617c6ac68f8200f2cc8153ce14ecdaac7e3f7
Author: Fabian Arrotin <arrfab at centos.org>
AuthorDate: Thu Aug 13 15:29:05 2020 +0200

    Updated gpg keys list with new Infra key
    
    Signed-off-by: Fabian Arrotin <arrfab at centos.org>
---
 keys.md                           |  8 ++++++++
 keys/RPM-GPG-KEY-CentOS-SIG-Infra | 32 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 2 files changed, 40 insertions(+)

diff --git a/keys.md b/keys.md
index 44688bf..d9c505b 100644
--- a/keys.md
+++ b/keys.md
@@ -160,6 +160,12 @@ The following keys are used to sign community led efforts within the CentOS Proj
     pub  2048R/2F297ECC 2016-05-18 CentOS PaaS SIG (https://wiki.centos.org/SpecialInterestGroup/PaaS) <security at centos.org>
     Key fingerprint = C5E8 AB44 6FA7 893D 7490  51F1 C34C 5BD4 2F29 7ECC
 
+#### Infra SIG
+[download key ](/keys/RPM-GPG-KEY-CentOS-SIG-Infra)
+
+    pub 2048R/F56D1621 2020-08-13 CentOS Infra SIG (https://wiki.centos.org/SpecialInterestGroup/Core) <security at centos.org>
+    Key fingerprint = 2F3B 7058 BCFA C3AB 0C72  B1BC 8B44 4FCE F56D 1621
+
 ### AltArch keys
 
 Community driven ports of CentOS to other platforms.
@@ -181,3 +187,5 @@ Community driven ports of CentOS to other platforms.
 
     pub  2048R/F533F4FA 2015-11-27 CentOS AltArch SIG - PowerPC (https://wiki.centos.org/SpecialInterestGroup/AltArch) <security at centos.org>
     Key fingerprint = BAFA 3436 FC50 768E 3C3C  2E4E A963 BBDB F533 F4FA
+
+
diff --git a/keys/RPM-GPG-KEY-CentOS-SIG-Infra b/keys/RPM-GPG-KEY-CentOS-SIG-Infra
new file mode 100644
index 0000000..a366504
--- /dev/null
+++ b/keys/RPM-GPG-KEY-CentOS-SIG-Infra
@@ -0,0 +1,32 @@
+-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
+Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
+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+B9GCXWkSoqO7VwwVGDrWV8CB03P6DaV6b8EaWi7m2WJPwM51Ry3I1edqGHe33395
+LkAquwQSp0KjV6dqGTWrWmWUejgPYaG59grFxO1U3KlFu91Lrk3ciXE4jdpx2SM2
+cw+J5uD8qu067BMUQnMaAKEOx7cg0DW/QmVjtuECWm05m8mQ/tbaDuPU/sFabKtK
+IrhfWhk1aSwhEBnBJR+herI0cQAiW6sAV7/3+GHHSSj2NT745h0rg65+
+=Au+4
+-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
+

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From rbowen at redhat.com  Mon Aug 17 19:54:01 2020
From: rbowen at redhat.com (Rich Bowen)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 15:54:01 -0400
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Documentation SIG: Participation wanted
In-Reply-To: <6f5fee6c-95ab-a4e4-44ea-3ac7b78d90de@redhat.com>
References: <6f5fee6c-95ab-a4e4-44ea-3ac7b78d90de@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <a0c34817-9c6a-b9d2-e7f1-68c755b47715@redhat.com>

Sorry, folks, i know I have made zero progress on this. The last two 
months have been unexpectedly busy. I hope to get back to this soon, 
unless someone wants to pick up the charge.

On 6/30/20 2:20 PM, Rich Bowen wrote:
> Hi, folks,
> 
> I've been working through the CentOS wiki for more than a year now, 
> trying to identify and fix outdated/wrong/obsolete content. It's a 
> daunting task, and I'm losing.
> 
> I would very much like to gather a group of people who are:
> 
> * Knowledgeable about CentOS
> * Good with words
> * Have a little time
> 
> who would be willing and able to review the content of the wiki, and fix 
> the bits that are incorrect.
> 
> The CentOS Documentation SIG (which doesn't actually exist in any 
> meaningful way) is, according to the wiki:
> 
> responsible for the content of the Wiki, and other public sources of 
> documentation. This includes, but is not limited to:
> 
> * Determining, and imposing, a hierarchy/architecture of content in the 
> wiki
> * Editing/pruning existing content when it is incorrect/outdated/obsolete
> * Recruiting subject matter experts to do some of that editing
> * Recruiting translators to keep our various translations in sync
> 
> [Ref: https://wiki.centos.org/SpecialInterestGroup/Documentation ]
> 
> If any of the above appeals to you, I would ask you to let me know. I 
> would like to create a SIG around the wiki. Please let me know if you're 
> interested. I know that there are a number of you who are consistently 
> active on this list. I would like to find a way to give us a little more 
> power/authority over the wiki to make higher-level editorial decisions 
> about information architecture. Also, having a formal SIG might be a way 
> to engage more people to join the effort and dedicate some time to it.
> 



From rbowen at redhat.com  Mon Aug 17 20:04:09 2020
From: rbowen at redhat.com (Rich Bowen)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 16:04:09 -0400
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Installing CentOS - user feedback
Message-ID: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>

A few days ago I got email from a user who was attempting to install 
CentOS. I've included their full message below, but, to summarize, when 
one clicks on the "CentOS Linux" link on the front page of centos.org 
one is given a matrix of choices, and no guidance. On choosing one 
option - say, x84_64 ISO, one is then given another list of options and 
no guidance. Pick one of *those* options and you are yet again given a 
list of options and no guidance.

Now, it could be argued that someone who doesn't know what to choose is 
not our target audience, and I suppose that would be an ok position to 
hold. But wouldn't it be great to lower the bar just a little, and offer 
some guidance as to which links one should click?

I'd like to see several things:

1) On the front page, where it says "We offer two Linux distros:", there 
would be at least some hint of what this choice entails

2) On the download page - https://www.centos.org/centos-linux/ - a 
little explanation of what the various options there are.

So far, this is all just edits to centos.org. The next two steps involve 
pushing changes to the mirror network, and I honestly have no idea what 
is involved there.

3) Adding phrasing to 
http://isoredirect.centos.org/centos/8/isos/x86_64/ that indicates what 
that inscrutable list of links means.

and finally, possibly not even possible:

4) Add words to http://centos4.zswap.net/8.2.2004/isos/x86_64/ (as a 
random example) that say what the various options mean. This is probably 
not possible, since these are just autoindex generated pages. We could, 
however, offer Apache httpd and nginx configuration recommendations 
which will provide that additional information for sites that chose to 
follow the instructions.

And, really, #1 and #2 are the most important here.

The full message follows:

 >>
I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me
some sort of answer.
I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located
a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring
varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I
have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how
do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed
to know what they are looking for.
When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with
".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely
candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no
idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave
CentOs to the experts?
I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user
level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone
who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very
unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended
user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to
choose which version of CentOs to use?
If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to
answer my question, I will be grateful.
<<



From thibaut.perrin at gmail.com  Mon Aug 17 20:19:43 2020
From: thibaut.perrin at gmail.com (Thibaut Perrin)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 22:19:43 +0200
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Installing CentOS - user feedback
In-Reply-To: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
References: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <CACR6vxF6Z4puUH19A+bLdBR4NFrDph4fNOsfzQ7HxaT-Za2ZAA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Rich,

Just for 1), when you choose the distro you want, written in white on blue
on top of that you have a phrasing that describes (agreed, it could be
better positioned, but it's there) :
CentOS Linux
=> Consistent, manageable platform that suits a wide variety of
deployments. For some open source communities, it is a solid, predictable
base to build upon.

CentOS Stream
=> Rolling-release distro that tracks just ahead of Red Hat Enterprise
Linux (RHEL) development, positioned as a midstream between Fedora Linux
and RHEL. For anyone interested in participating and collaborating in the
RHEL ecosystem, CentOS Stream is your reliable platform for innovation.

I agree on the missing points, and also the "Documentation" page includes
doc for 7 & 8, even if you're on the 6.10 choice. Which means there's not
even documentation links for 6 while it's still possible to download it ?

On the other points, once you choose x86_64, there should be more guidance
on the mirror page I'd say. You'll find the following ISO files, here is a
list of which you'll find and what usage.
Maybe the mirror parent page could include a readme or a redirect to the
ISO page as well for that matter ?

I think the fewest places the info is stored, the less likely we'll forget
an update when there is one.

Thanks,


On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 10:04 PM Rich Bowen <rbowen at redhat.com> wrote:

> A few days ago I got email from a user who was attempting to install
> CentOS. I've included their full message below, but, to summarize, when
> one clicks on the "CentOS Linux" link on the front page of centos.org
> one is given a matrix of choices, and no guidance. On choosing one
> option - say, x84_64 ISO, one is then given another list of options and
> no guidance. Pick one of *those* options and you are yet again given a
> list of options and no guidance.
>
> Now, it could be argued that someone who doesn't know what to choose is
> not our target audience, and I suppose that would be an ok position to
> hold. But wouldn't it be great to lower the bar just a little, and offer
> some guidance as to which links one should click?
>
> I'd like to see several things:
>
> 1) On the front page, where it says "We offer two Linux distros:", there
> would be at least some hint of what this choice entails
>
> 2) On the download page - https://www.centos.org/centos-linux/ - a
> little explanation of what the various options there are.
>
> So far, this is all just edits to centos.org. The next two steps involve
> pushing changes to the mirror network, and I honestly have no idea what
> is involved there.
>
> 3) Adding phrasing to
> http://isoredirect.centos.org/centos/8/isos/x86_64/ that indicates what
> that inscrutable list of links means.
>
> and finally, possibly not even possible:
>
> 4) Add words to http://centos4.zswap.net/8.2.2004/isos/x86_64/ (as a
> random example) that say what the various options mean. This is probably
> not possible, since these are just autoindex generated pages. We could,
> however, offer Apache httpd and nginx configuration recommendations
> which will provide that additional information for sites that chose to
> follow the instructions.
>
> And, really, #1 and #2 are the most important here.
>
> The full message follows:
>
>  >>
> I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me
> some sort of answer.
> I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located
> a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring
> varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I
> have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how
> do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed
> to know what they are looking for.
> When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with
> ".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely
> candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no
> idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave
> CentOs to the experts?
> I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user
> level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone
> who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very
> unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended
> user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to
> choose which version of CentOs to use?
> If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to
> answer my question, I will be grateful.
> <<
>
> _______________________________________________
> CentOS-docs mailing list
> CentOS-docs at centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
>
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From rbowen at redhat.com  Mon Aug 17 20:30:06 2020
From: rbowen at redhat.com (Rich Bowen)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 16:30:06 -0400
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Installing CentOS - user feedback
In-Reply-To: <CACR6vxF6Z4puUH19A+bLdBR4NFrDph4fNOsfzQ7HxaT-Za2ZAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
 <CACR6vxF6Z4puUH19A+bLdBR4NFrDph4fNOsfzQ7HxaT-Za2ZAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c8897642-20ef-c9b7-26ab-e6a057a27c26@redhat.com>



On 8/17/20 4:19 PM, Thibaut Perrin wrote:
> Hi Rich,
> 
> Just for 1), when you choose the distro you want, written in white on 
> blue on top of that you have a phrasing that describes (agreed, it could 
> be better positioned, but it's there) :
> CentOS Linux
> => Consistent, manageable platform that suits a wide variety of 
> deployments. For some open source communities, it is a solid, 
> predictable base to build upon.
> 
> CentOS Stream
> => Rolling-release distro that tracks just ahead of Red Hat Enterprise 
> Linux (RHEL) development, positioned as a midstream between Fedora Linux 
> and RHEL. For anyone interested in participating and collaborating in 
> the RHEL ecosystem, CentOS Stream is your reliable platform for innovation.

Yes, these are good, but are both *after* you've made the choice of 
which button to click. I have been told (not in writing, but just at 
events) that it's not clear why one would pick one or the other. Maybe 
we could do a shorter form of those as a mouseover?

> 
> I agree on the missing points,?and also the "Documentation" page 
> includes doc for 7 & 8, even if you're on the?6.10 choice. Which means 
> there's not even documentation links for 6 while it's still possible to 
> download it ?

Oops. I hadn't noticed that. Although, we're just 2 months out from 6 
EOL, so probably not something we're going to spend much time fixing, 
I'd guess?

> 
> On the other points, once you choose x86_64, there should be more 
> guidance on the mirror page I'd say. You'll find the following ISO 
> files, here is a list of which you'll find and what usage.
> Maybe the mirror parent page could include a readme or a redirect to the 
> ISO page as well for that matter ?
> 
> I think the fewest places the info is stored, the less likely we'll 
> forget an update when there is one.

Definitely, I agree.


> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 10:04 PM Rich Bowen <rbowen at redhat.com 
> <mailto:rbowen at redhat.com>> wrote:
> 
>     A few days ago I got email from a user who was attempting to install
>     CentOS. I've included their full message below, but, to summarize, when
>     one clicks on the "CentOS Linux" link on the front page of
>     centos.org <http://centos.org>
>     one is given a matrix of choices, and no guidance. On choosing one
>     option - say, x84_64 ISO, one is then given another list of options and
>     no guidance. Pick one of *those* options and you are yet again given a
>     list of options and no guidance.
> 
>     Now, it could be argued that someone who doesn't know what to choose is
>     not our target audience, and I suppose that would be an ok position to
>     hold. But wouldn't it be great to lower the bar just a little, and
>     offer
>     some guidance as to which links one should click?
> 
>     I'd like to see several things:
> 
>     1) On the front page, where it says "We offer two Linux distros:",
>     there
>     would be at least some hint of what this choice entails
> 
>     2) On the download page - https://www.centos.org/centos-linux/ - a
>     little explanation of what the various options there are.
> 
>     So far, this is all just edits to centos.org <http://centos.org>.
>     The next two steps involve
>     pushing changes to the mirror network, and I honestly have no idea what
>     is involved there.
> 
>     3) Adding phrasing to
>     http://isoredirect.centos.org/centos/8/isos/x86_64/ that indicates what
>     that inscrutable list of links means.
> 
>     and finally, possibly not even possible:
> 
>     4) Add words to http://centos4.zswap.net/8.2.2004/isos/x86_64/ (as a
>     random example) that say what the various options mean. This is
>     probably
>     not possible, since these are just autoindex generated pages. We could,
>     however, offer Apache httpd and nginx configuration recommendations
>     which will provide that additional information for sites that chose to
>     follow the instructions.
> 
>     And, really, #1 and #2 are the most important here.
> 
>     The full message follows:
> 
>      ?>>
>     I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me
>     some sort of answer.
>     I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located
>     a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring
>     varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I
>     have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how
>     do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed
>     to know what they are looking for.
>     When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with
>     ".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely
>     candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no
>     idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave
>     CentOs to the experts?
>     I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user
>     level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone
>     who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very
>     unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended
>     user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to
>     choose which version of CentOs to use?
>     If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to
>     answer my question, I will be grateful.
>     <<
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     CentOS-docs mailing list
>     CentOS-docs at centos.org <mailto:CentOS-docs at centos.org>
>     https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> CentOS-docs mailing list
> CentOS-docs at centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
> 



From wolfy at nobugconsulting.ro  Mon Aug 17 23:34:59 2020
From: wolfy at nobugconsulting.ro (Manuel Wolfshant)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 02:34:59 +0300
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Installing CentOS - user feedback
In-Reply-To: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
References: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <7dbb55e7-000e-ad14-30c3-201bcefa848d@nobugconsulting.ro>

On 8/17/20 11:04 PM, Rich Bowen wrote:
> A few days ago I got email from a user who was attempting to install 
> CentOS. I've included their full message below, but, to summarize, 
> when one clicks on the "CentOS Linux" link on the front page of 
> centos.org one is given a matrix of choices, and no guidance. On 
> choosing one option - say, x84_64 ISO, one is then given another list 
> of options and no guidance. Pick one of *those* options and you are 
> yet again given a list of options and no guidance.
>
> Now, it could be argued that someone who doesn't know what to choose 
> is not our target audience, and I suppose that would be an ok position 
> to hold. But wouldn't it be great to lower the bar just a little, and 
> offer some guidance as to which links one should click?
>
> I'd like to see several things:
>
> 1) On the front page, where it says "We offer two Linux distros:", 
> there would be at least some hint of what this choice entails
>
> 2) On the download page - https://www.centos.org/centos-linux/ - a 
> little explanation of what the various options there are.
>
> So far, this is all just edits to centos.org. The next two steps 
> involve pushing changes to the mirror network, and I honestly have no 
> idea what is involved there.
>
> 3) Adding phrasing to 
> http://isoredirect.centos.org/centos/8/isos/x86_64/ that indicates 
> what that inscrutable list of links means.
>
> and finally, possibly not even possible:
>
> 4) Add words to http://centos4.zswap.net/8.2.2004/isos/x86_64/ (as a 
> random example) that say what the various options mean. This is 
> probably not possible, since these are just autoindex generated pages. 
> We could, however, offer Apache httpd and nginx configuration 
> recommendations which will provide that additional information for 
> sites that chose to follow the instructions.
>
> And, really, #1 and #2 are the most important here.
>
Rich, I fully agree with that user and frankly, I command him for 
reaching out and telling you ( and us ) his concerns. I for one would 
have quit and not looked back. Been there, done that.

Leaving that aside, AFAIK the main web site is not under community 
control. It was taken over by RedHat eons ago ( not that it was 
accessible for us, the members of the CentOS teams, before that anyway ) 
and I bet that there are most 5 people who can modify it. If memory 
serves I am part of the wiki translation team for 12 years or so and 
AFAIK none of those who can edit the wiki had ever had any sort of 
influence on the pages published on www.c.o. We actually had to _beg_ to 
have links in the main website point to the wiki ( which _was_ under our 
control ) so that we could publish information we thought that 
could/would be useful for the users.


In an ideal world, we would have some sort of AJAX that would 
dynamically describe each and every iso link on the main pages of the 
web site. But that's a job for web designers and content publishers. I 
fully recommend to whoever will be tasked with this project to look at 
the wiki maintained by the arch community. THAT is how things should be 
done, from my point of view. And, with all due respect, I mean that as 
opposed to access.r.c and www.r.c which are awful to navigate unless you 
know exactly what you want.. and sometimes not even then.

wolfy


PS: I created the very very first 0_README.txt file that is now included 
in the isos/$ARCH folder. A file which usually is ignored for the simple 
reason that end users almost never reach it but whose content should be 
published BEFORE the users attempt to download an iso.



> The full message follows:
>
> >>
> I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me
> some sort of answer.
> I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located
> a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring
> varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I
> have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how
> do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed
> to know what they are looking for.
> When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with
> ".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely
> candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no
> idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave
> CentOs to the experts?
> I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user
> level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone
> who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very
> unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended
> user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to
> choose which version of CentOs to use?
> If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to
> answer my question, I will be grateful.
> <<
>
> _______________________________________________
> CentOS-docs mailing list
> CentOS-docs at centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs




From wolfy at nobugconsulting.ro  Mon Aug 17 23:41:09 2020
From: wolfy at nobugconsulting.ro (Manuel Wolfshant)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 02:41:09 +0300
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Installing CentOS - user feedback
In-Reply-To: <7dbb55e7-000e-ad14-30c3-201bcefa848d@nobugconsulting.ro>
References: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
 <7dbb55e7-000e-ad14-30c3-201bcefa848d@nobugconsulting.ro>
Message-ID: <9fd4ff07-1981-51b3-7fcf-ede9e6195b45@nobugconsulting.ro>

On 8/18/20 2:34 AM, Manuel Wolfshant wrote:
> On 8/17/20 11:04 PM, Rich Bowen wrote:
>> A few days ago I got email from a user who was attempting to install 
>> CentOS. I've included their full message below, but, to summarize, 
>> when one clicks on the "CentOS Linux" link on the front page of 
>> centos.org one is given a matrix of choices, and no guidance. On 
>> choosing one option - say, x84_64 ISO, one is then given another list 
>> of options and no guidance. Pick one of *those* options and you are 
>> yet again given a list of options and no guidance.
>>
>> Now, it could be argued that someone who doesn't know what to choose 
>> is not our target audience, and I suppose that would be an ok 
>> position to hold. But wouldn't it be great to lower the bar just a 
>> little, and offer some guidance as to which links one should click?
>>
>> I'd like to see several things:
>>
>> 1) On the front page, where it says "We offer two Linux distros:", 
>> there would be at least some hint of what this choice entails
>>
>> 2) On the download page - https://www.centos.org/centos-linux/ - a 
>> little explanation of what the various options there are.
>>
>> So far, this is all just edits to centos.org. The next two steps 
>> involve pushing changes to the mirror network, and I honestly have no 
>> idea what is involved there.
>>
>> 3) Adding phrasing to 
>> http://isoredirect.centos.org/centos/8/isos/x86_64/ that indicates 
>> what that inscrutable list of links means.
>>
>> and finally, possibly not even possible:
>>
>> 4) Add words to http://centos4.zswap.net/8.2.2004/isos/x86_64/ (as a 
>> random example) that say what the various options mean. This is 
>> probably not possible, since these are just autoindex generated 
>> pages. We could, however, offer Apache httpd and nginx configuration 
>> recommendations which will provide that additional information for 
>> sites that chose to follow the instructions.


Oh, sweet. I just noticed that below the /8/isos tree there is no 
description similar to 
http://centos4.zswap.net/7/isos/x86_64/0_README.txt. Wonderful choice, 
dropping each and every hint that [barely] existed.


>>
>> And, really, #1 and #2 are the most important here.
>>
> Rich, I fully agree with that user and frankly, I command him for 
> reaching out and telling you ( and us ) his concerns. I for one would 
> have quit and not looked back. Been there, done that.
>
> Leaving that aside, AFAIK the main web site is not under community 
> control. It was taken over by RedHat eons ago ( not that it was 
> accessible for us, the members of the CentOS teams, before that anyway 
> ) and I bet that there are most 5 people who can modify it. If memory 
> serves I am part of the wiki translation team for 12 years or so and 
> AFAIK none of those who can edit the wiki had ever had any sort of 
> influence on the pages published on www.c.o. We actually had to _beg_ 
> to have links in the main website point to the wiki ( which _was_ 
> under our control ) so that we could publish information we thought 
> that could/would be useful for the users.
>
>
> In an ideal world, we would have some sort of AJAX that would 
> dynamically describe each and every iso link on the main pages of the 
> web site. But that's a job for web designers and content publishers. I 
> fully recommend to whoever will be tasked with this project to look at 
> the wiki maintained by the arch community. THAT is how things should 
> be done, from my point of view. And, with all due respect, I mean that 
> as opposed to access.r.c and www.r.c which are awful to navigate 
> unless you know exactly what you want.. and sometimes not even then.
>
> wolfy
>
>
> PS: I created the very very first 0_README.txt file that is now 
> included in the isos/$ARCH folder. A file which usually is ignored for 
> the simple reason that end users almost never reach it but whose 
> content should be published BEFORE the users attempt to download an iso.
>
>
>
>> The full message follows:
>>
>> >>
>> I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me
>> some sort of answer.
>> I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located
>> a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring
>> varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I
>> have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how
>> do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed
>> to know what they are looking for.
>> When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with
>> ".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely
>> candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no
>> idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave
>> CentOs to the experts?
>> I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user
>> level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone
>> who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very
>> unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended
>> user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to
>> choose which version of CentOs to use?
>> If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to
>> answer my question, I will be grateful.
>> <<



From rbowen at redhat.com  Tue Aug 18 14:01:03 2020
From: rbowen at redhat.com (Rich Bowen)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 10:01:03 -0400
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Installing CentOS - user feedback
In-Reply-To: <7dbb55e7-000e-ad14-30c3-201bcefa848d@nobugconsulting.ro>
References: <61e2816b-ff32-e853-e1f3-6adce4443282@redhat.com>
 <7dbb55e7-000e-ad14-30c3-201bcefa848d@nobugconsulting.ro>
Message-ID: <2c9bc431-5f5e-00a5-ee1c-600afadce6de@redhat.com>



On 8/17/20 7:34 PM, Manuel Wolfshant wrote:

> Leaving that aside, AFAIK the main web site is not under community 
> control. It was taken over by RedHat eons ago ( not that it was 
> accessible for us, the members of the CentOS teams, before that anyway ) 
> and I bet that there are most 5 people who can modify it. If memory 
> serves I am part of the wiki translation team for 12 years or so and 
> AFAIK none of those who can edit the wiki had ever had any sort of 
> influence on the pages published on www.c.o. We actually had to _beg_ to 
> have links in the main website point to the wiki ( which _was_ under our 
> control ) so that we could publish information we thought that 
> could/would be useful for the users.

FYI: Anyone can submit pull requests at 
https://git.centos.org/centos/centos.org

> 
> 
> In an ideal world, we would have some sort of AJAX that would 
> dynamically describe each and every iso link on the main pages of the 
> web site. But that's a job for web designers and content publishers. I 
> fully recommend to whoever will be tasked with this project to look at 
> the wiki maintained by the arch community. THAT is how things should be 
> done, from my point of view. And, with all due respect, I mean that as 
> opposed to access.r.c and www.r.c which are awful to navigate unless you 
> know exactly what you want.. and sometimes not even then.
> 
> wolfy
> 
> 
> PS: I created the very very first 0_README.txt file that is now included 
> in the isos/$ARCH folder. A file which usually is ignored for the simple 
> reason that end users almost never reach it but whose content should be 
> published BEFORE the users attempt to download an iso.
> 
> 
> 
>> The full message follows:
>>
>> >>
>> I stumbled on your address on a Centos Faq page. I hope you can give me
>> some sort of answer.
>> I have been searching for a way to ask a question, but have not located
>> a forum. As I am fairly new to Linux generally, I am exploring
>> varieties, and Centos surfaced as an interesting option. But, again, I
>> have a problem no one else considers worthy of asking or answering: how
>> do I choose? Apparently the user in the download directory is supposed
>> to know what they are looking for.
>> When I followed the link to "download CentOs", I chose a link with
>> ".iso" on it. This opened another page, so I picked another likely
>> candidate. I went four or five branches deep before I gave up. I have no
>> idea why I would want one branch or the other. Should I just leave
>> CentOs to the experts?
>> I really wish that on the home page there was a specification for "user
>> level". Do developers assume that the user is expert, and that someone
>> who is not qualified will get exhausted and go away? It seems very
>> unkind to make that assumption and not say so. If I am not the intended
>> user, please tell me! Otherwise, could someone please explain how to
>> choose which version of CentOs to use?
>> If you could forward this letter to someone who can take the time to
>> answer my question, I will be grateful.
>> <<
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> CentOS-docs mailing list
>> CentOS-docs at centos.org
>> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> CentOS-docs mailing list
> CentOS-docs at centos.org
> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
> 



From git at centos.org  Thu Aug 27 15:29:30 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 15:29:30 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (622617c ->
	b2cf591)
Message-ID: <20200827152930.14861.33957@ip-8-43-84-211.rdu2c.centos.org>

This is an automated email from the git hooks/post-receive script.

rbowen pushed a change to branch master
in repository centos/centos.org.

    from 622617c  Updated gpg keys list with new Infra key
     add b2cf591  Replace missing licensing policy doc

No new revisions were added by this update.

Summary of changes:
 legal/licensing-policy.md | 72 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 1 file changed, 72 insertions(+)
 create mode 100644 legal/licensing-policy.md

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From git at centos.org  Thu Aug 27 18:14:08 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 18:14:08 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (b2cf591 ->
	d408e8c)
Message-ID: <20200827181408.19591.89198@ip-8-43-84-211.rdu2c.centos.org>

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rbowen pushed a change to branch master
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    from b2cf591  Replace missing licensing policy doc
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From git at centos.org  Thu Aug 27 19:55:05 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 19:55:05 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (d408e8c ->
	397faa6)
Message-ID: <20200827195505.6811.47968@ip-8-43-84-211.rdu2c.centos.org>

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rbowen pushed a change to branch master
in repository centos/centos.org.

    from d408e8c  Date is now accurate for the original file. - This file was lost from the website in a migration. - Rich recreated this file and put in the date of 2020-04-10 as a placeholder - I looked into my local checkout and am fixing the date here
     add 397faa6  Calendar updates

No new revisions were added by this update.

Summary of changes:
 community/calendar.md       | 21 +++++++++--
 community/irc-meetings.ical | 90 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++--------
 2 files changed, 92 insertions(+), 19 deletions(-)

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From git at centos.org  Fri Aug 28 12:38:06 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 12:38:06 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated (397faa6 ->
	da4b999)
Message-ID: <20200828123806.18579.36199@ip-8-43-84-211.rdu2c.centos.org>

This is an automated email from the git hooks/post-receive script.

rbowen pushed a change to branch master
in repository centos/centos.org.

    from 397faa6  Calendar updates
     add da4b999  Tweak to force rebuild.

No new revisions were added by this update.

Summary of changes:
 community/calendar.md | 5 +++--
 1 file changed, 3 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)

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From git at centos.org  Sat Aug 29 06:14:19 2020
From: git at centos.org (git at centos.org)
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 06:14:19 +0000
Subject: [CentOS-docs] [centos/centos.org] branch master updated: Backported
 https://github.com/CentOS/Calendar/pull/39/files for calendar rendering
Message-ID: <20200829061419.16811.43580@ip-8-43-84-211.rdu2c.centos.org>

This is an automated email from the git hooks/post-receive script.

arrfab pushed a commit to branch master
in repository centos/centos.org.

The following commit(s) were added to refs/heads/master by this push:
     new b881fc0  Backported https://github.com/CentOS/Calendar/pull/39/files for calendar rendering
b881fc0 is described below

commit b881fc0319f0e5b596955ab4ba8e05421384841d
Author: Fabian Arrotin <arrfab at centos.org>
AuthorDate: Sat Aug 29 08:14:11 2020 +0200

    Backported https://github.com/CentOS/Calendar/pull/39/files for calendar rendering
    
    Signed-off-by: Fabian Arrotin <arrfab at centos.org>
---
 community/calendar.md | 8 +++++++-
 1 file changed, 7 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-)

diff --git a/community/calendar.md b/community/calendar.md
index 26d62df..7ca7854 100644
--- a/community/calendar.md
+++ b/community/calendar.md
@@ -1,4 +1,10 @@
-# CentOS IRC meetings
+---
+title: "CentOS IRC meetings"
+title_lead: ""
+layout: page
+permalink: /:path/:basename/index.html
+toc: true
+---
 
 ## Meeting schedule
 

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From billings at negate.org  Mon Aug 31 21:28:58 2020
From: billings at negate.org (Jonathan Billings)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 17:28:58 -0400
Subject: [CentOS-docs] Misleading information on main page about Centos
	Stream
Message-ID: <ED837E68-6118-4DDC-B753-957B6F5DE78B@negate.org>

Not sure if this is a Docs issue or others...

I came across this page:

https://www.centos.org/centos-stream/

> CentOS Steam
> 
> Rolling-release distro that tracks just ahead of Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL) development, positioned as a midstream between Fedora Linux and RHEL. For anyone interested in participating and collaborating in the RHEL ecosystem, CentOS Stream is your reliable platform for innovation.

This is pretty misleading. Isn?t Stream just a collection of repos that offer pre-release packages for the next RHEL point release?  It?s not a midstream between Fedora and RHEL. 
--
Jonathan Billings <billings at negate.org>
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