On Fri, 7 Aug 2009, Marcus Moeller wrote: > 2009/8/7 R P Herrold <herrold at centos.org>: >> You don't like reputational vetting and a meritocracy, or how >> it is run by the people in charge who have as one goal: not >> distributing malware. I get it. Thank you. > Hey Russ, it's open source. You can just review the spec and > comment it until it's ready for release. Source could be > fetched directly from upstream and patches could be verified > easily. If you want my attention seeking to persuade, do not start a communication: 'Hey' as I consider it rude. You are right -- I 'can' but I have no plans to do so as it is not safe as stated, as trojaned content can leak in. I guess it is the case that you do not read. I have clearly said: I am just not interested in 'competing' with El Repo, or RPMforge, or EPEL ... It is also a truth I have observed that because there are doers and talkers, that after a while the doers tire of talk, withdraw from the talkers, and build a future. ... It is fantasy to think that the effort expended by the central project members would continue if 'guided' or 'controlled' by the hands of others with less technical skills And in a later piece: either people do not read, or will not believe what we write. If a person wishes to be advanced in the project, contribute to the project. [It is not clear to me WHY people think there is some huge benefit for being a 'project insider' as it is really just a chance to do more work. Early access to QA is just not that hard to earn] We are not likely to hold your hand much, but will answer questions well framed [see: /topic in #centos for the link]. Be a self starter. Do something material. Some things to do to gain my notice as a contributor of merit: 1. The bug tracker is open self serve for people to sign up. Add its RSS feed, and read every one as it crosses [I do]. Start working through the bugs to replicate or note an inability to replicate issues; Work through the bug tracker from latest to earliest, seeing if there is a similar upstream bug, or a fix, or if an issue is CentOS local. Note your results. That would be useful 2. The -docs ML is open for proposals of new content into the wiki. Add its RSS feed, and read every diff as it crosses [I do]. Fix broken stuff that can be fixed at once. Some even believe it is more useful to re-write documentation locally rather than feeding improvements upstream so that it flows back down and out into RHEL, Fedora, etc as well as just CentOS [I do not, and referred you to Fedora earlier in this thread] 3. Set up a local mirror of SRPMs, not just of the released Enterprise sources of upstream, but its RawHide as well. I do this, and have a daily 'diff' report to scan for new material to review. Start building and testing and filing bugs to make the .spec files more general and less distribution specific, so that cross pollination can occur. You may get rejected (I often am), but I try to improve the breed 4. The same problems repeat time and again in the Forums. Add its RSS feed, and read every new post as it crosses [I do]. Add pointers or content as needed, and 'cc' into updates on the thread [I do]. I have noticed a trend, that lately the three or four regulars are moving content more to the correct tree location, and asking questioners to do their research, and dropping out-links to answers rather than doing so in line. I do this as well when I form an answer, as it provides the linkage hints Google needs to note 'reputation' and to weave answers together. 5. Join the main IRC channel or mailing list, and confirm you can answer every question posed for a solid week; if not, fill in your knowledge gaps with experimentation. At that point, start thoughtfully pointing a person toward the answers. Spoon-feeding is NOT a good thing, and does not gain any points in my eyes, as that is not the stated purpose of the channel. The mailing list is looser as to /on topic/ but when a person repeatedly recommends 'non-CentOS' approaches over acceptable CentOS product, I'll certainly notice ... and that is perhaps not a good thing for further advancement. I _USE_ tinydns some places where it is the right fit, but I don't mention it here 6. Once you have demonstrated skills, ask to be admitted to the next QA effort (we get three of four point update chances a year), and do QA. People who sign up and are admitted often slack off [don't participate in the ML, don't file reports, are not in IRC], and by that inaction demonstrate they are are not interested in progressing further. People _do_ get busy with real life or have to rest from burnout and take time off 7. Once you have demonstrated skills, ask for some special project to build some element of needed infrastructure that is not otherwise getting done, and do it. John Pierce's post earlier this week certainly caught my eye, as he demonstrated self-starter problem solving skills in a complex space I had not seen before. He is now on my 'watch list' to draw into the project Will any of those 'earn' a centos.org mailing address as someone lamented they lacked earlier in this thread? Sometimes, but frankly, we don't give those out easily. I saw a remark earlier: > In the meanwhile some things ... are getting a bit clearer > so I guess we are on the right track. 'We' can perhaps be read here as a generic 'things are on the right track' -- but frankly, the only 'we' that I would look to for authoritative statements as to the project are people with a '@centos.org' in their email address. There is back channel coordination, infrastructure, and much more And even then (as an example) I might not accurately KNOW exact status of the project as it is moving along. My QA work on AMD K6-II support went back and forth in an email and IRC interchange with three of the eight signers participating yesterday. I (sadly) happened to have the right answer as it turned out, and a hoped for patch for its support is not working properly yet. I saw the draft 4.8 release notes go out and come back in translation, and while I have not read the final copy, I know that a fourth person in the QA loop was watching the thread for changes You (Marcus) have established yourself as irrelevant to me. I will not presently be supporting you for further advancement into the CentOS infrastructure if you seek or are proposed for such, until I see some 'merit' outside of talking > I do not see any problem here. Of course you do not -- you are not doing the work to write code, nor implement a trial setup, nor see the errors nor solve them. It is easy to tell others to do something How about you stop posting to a mailing list and do some work? I am certainly not going to pursue your visions unless you pay me to do so. Similarly I will not propose that others be forced to work toward your 'arm waving' visions within the aegis of the CentOS project > Maybe, but I like the idea of setting up a community backed > Enterprise OS and CentOS is a great choice for that task. And I would like a pony As before as I told Ned: > BTW, I and many others really like the Wiki Then we differ, but great stuff still happens -- that's how FOSS works Here as well, we differ -- CentOS at its core is about boring, and stable and conservative as a core value. You are in the wrong place if you think otherwise. It makes a fine BASE to build on, as Dag's archive has long demonstrated, but there is NOT a good fit for a beginner to start doing invasive changes to get 'the latest and greatest' to compile. That is the 'rap' as to Axel's archive, and why people end up frustrated using it and moan and groan about their ignorance and NOT READING our clear warnings on the wiki's Repositories page I'll go further -- complaints about RPMforge being down, or affirmations that EPEL is the cat's whiskers on CentOS channels will not just be silently ignored by me here any more. I will start remarking about them just not being supported here. I will probably start adding a <!> to wiki content, warning people using such outside archives that such content is NOT vetted, nor supported by CentOS, but rather by the relevant project's support mechanisms (if any) [Al]pine just flashed that Johnny could not sleep either and posted something -- I'll stop now and go snooze a bit -- Russ herrold