On Fri, 2009-08-07 at 19:31 -0400, Mike A. Harris wrote: > <snip> > Yep, I think it is because people often want to travel straight from A > to Z without having to go through B, C, D, etc. Another subset of > people, "the talkers" want to dictate to the "doers" how things should > be done, often without wanting to (or perhaps without having the skills > to) actually do any solid contributions themselves. They can safely > just be ignored. ;o) I was with you up to that last line. In any organization, *sometimes* one of the most important skills (if it is lacking in other "community" members) is that of organizing and motivating and coordinating, ... All of this is just "talking" (well, planning, etc. - but the results of that is often only exhibited in "talking"). And what is characterized as "whining" can be seen as folks who mistakenly believe their input, as a community member (if that's what the "core" folks choose them to be viewed as) is valued and are trying to contribute. I only have one question that I want to add to this gawd-awful thread now. Who is the project serving? The "core" themselves or a "community" of users as well? If that is effectively and accurately answered, then the dynamics of the relationship(s) between users of the project and the "core" can be more clearly stated and understood. My observations in the past has indicated that this is not truly decided and inculcated in the project's "core" members. This one definition might have saved 90% of this thread. > - -- > Mike A. Harris > http://mharris.ca | https://twitter.com/mikeaharris > <snip sig stuff> -- Bill