Just to throw out the background on the thread... It was started questioning whether redhat is going to actively try and make it harder over time to clone it, thus making any derivatives of it untenable. I tried ubuntu and that is what this sub thread is about. I tried ubuntu from the standpoint of a non-developer, non-it-worker, hobbyist web site owner putting together a stand alone webserver. Ubuntu vs centos in this regard goes fully to centos. Having to get a degree in grub, iptable scripts, etc just to do a out of the box install of a virtual host is rather much in that regard. Centos had a much easier and somewhat more intuitive installer and installed a firewall that limited input to a bridged device and port 22. Ubuntu opened the virtual host to the entire lan, all ports, and added forwarding to non existent virtual bridge that had not been built yet. Ubu had forced me during the install to download packages and get on the net. Centos did not. From what I now understand of debian derived ubuntu is they are quite an excellent desktop system and are working on an interesting cloud infrastructure. I understand now that ubuntu command line stuff (non desktop) is for someone with much more knowledge of linux and all its programs than a person using centos would need to know. In that regard, not coming from a bank of servers and knowledgeable university background, ubuntu is a massive learning curve far beyond the pre-set-up nature of centos. I did want the ability to get newer programs in regards to web stuff like php. I may try to install some ubu as web servers, but not as the virtual host. It seems to require too much time and knowledge to properly secure it. With centos I can lock the virtual host down and access solely through the ipmi interface ensuring that as the only fail point. Right out of the box. Easily. I like the security and ease of it. As a virtual host, I found ubu install tedious, slow, and demanding way too much knowledge and skill to just simply start adding guests and go. Ubu virtual host is definitely requires much more configuration skills than centos. Something I do not feeling like having to learn when centos comes with it set to go. If you are from a university background or have worked with many types of linux for a long time, then maybe it is simple for you to take a few minutes out and configure the scripts for network, iptables, secure the box, check all the pre-installed stuff. But for me it would take much longer and I would never know what I missed.