On 07/09/2014 01:31 PM, Les Mikesell wrote: > I'm not convinced that being open and receptive to changes from people > that aren't using and appear to not even like the existing, working > system is better than having a single community, all running the same > system because they already like it, and focusing on improving it > while keeping things they like and are currently using. I think you and I remember a different set of lists. I remember lots of griping about changes being forced down throats. Heh, a quick perusal of one of the lists' archives just a minute ago confirmed my recollection. > With the latter approach, there was a much better sense of the cost of > breaking things that previously worked. Do you remember the brouhaha over libc5 that 'just worked' versus the 'changed for no reason' glibc2? And don't get me started on the recollections over the GNOME 1 to 2 upgrade (or fvwm to GNOME, for that matter!), or the various KDE upgrades (and the entire lack of KDE for RHL 5.x due to the odd license for Qt, remember? Mandrake got its start being essentially RHL with KDE.... and of course the 'stripping' of KDE to 'cripple it down the GNOME level' (otherwise known as the 'Red Hat Desktop')) or the various kernel uprevs (2.4 broke my whatzit2000 that nobody else has! You CAN'T upgrade!!!!!). And then there was gcc 2.96. (I can feel the tremor in the Source just mentioning that....) And then all the i18n changes for 8.0 (I dealt with that one directly, since the PostgreSQL ANSI C default had to be changed to whatever was now localized.... too bad the Redneck install language has gone away.) And then there was the weed called Kudzu. The bad rep for x.0 releases started somewhere, remember? (Smooge was there, too, and has an extensive page about the differences (this link is from my bookmarks and memory; AFAIK it still works): http://www.smoogespace.com/documents/behind_the_names.html ). And I'm still waiting for my upgrade to Red Baron. ;-), in case you needed it.... Sorry Les, but I was there, and I have the e-mails. I guess people prefer being able to just gripe without the chance for real responsibility versus now having a bit of responsibility to help since the ability to actually do something about it is available. Not that I necessarily disagree with your observations, by the way. I'm just looking at the brushstrokes of the really big picture and remembering how at the time it seemed like we sometimes were just moving from one kluge to another (if you insist on the alternate spelling 'kludge' feel free to use it.....). But it was a blast being there and watching this thing called Linux find its wings, no? It is still a blast for me, even if I actually do serious work with several versions of Linux. And I'm looking forward to spending some quality time with systemd, of which I know very little, and seeing how I can make this new tool, which apparently a lot of really smart people think is a great idea, work for me (and I may find that I despise it; time will tell). I kind of feel like I've been given a new tool set with tools I've never seen, and finding out that a screwdriver and a chisel can actually be separate things! Or finding out what a 'fence wire' tool can *really* be used for..... ( see: http://www.garrettwade.com/images/330/66A0204.jpg ) And I have two previous versions of CentOS to fall back on while I learn the new tools; I have both C5 and C6 in production, and have plenty of time in which to do a proper analysis on the best way ('best way' of course being subjective; there is no such thing as an entirely objective 'best way') for me to leverage the new tools. The fact of the matter is that Red Hat would not bet the farm on systemd without substantial buy-in from a large number of people. The further fact the Debian and others have come to the same conclusion speaks volumes, whether any given person thinks it stupid or not. And I don't have enough data to know whether it's going to work for me or not; I'm definitely not going to knee-jerk about it, though. But the rumors of something 'killing' Linux have and will always be exaggerated. Systemd certainly isn't going to, if gcc 2.96 didn't. I mean, think about it: the first rev out of gcc 2.96 wouldn't even compile the Linux kernel, IIRC!
