On Sat, 2011-07-09 at 20:13 +0200, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:

But you should also be prepared to help them with install and primary setup, like adding third party repositories for audio/video codecs and similar.

One of the most useful things I discovered was:-

yum install gstreamer*

which installs seemingly everything required to run the most popular audio and video applications in Gnome.

On Sat, 2011-07-09 at 20:25 +0200, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:

Always Learning wrote:

...

On Sat, 2011-07-09 at 20:13 +0200, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:

...

But you should also be prepared to help them with install and primary setup, like adding third party repositories for audio/video codecs and similar.

One of the most useful things I discovered was:-

yum install gstreamer*

which installs seemingly everything required to run the most popular audio and video applications in Gnome.

Most but not all. Windows users have only mp3 music, especially if they have illegal copies like >90% of people in South East Europe. For those you need non-free codecs.

If MP3 music 'works' (meaning it successfully plays on Centos/Gnome) why would additional codecs be required ?

I'm not very knowledgeable about codecs, which I assume are the audio equivalent of printer drivers. I understand "yum install gstreamer*" adds the legal and the 'bad' codecs which makes unplayable music playable in Centos/Gnome.

Keith Roberts wrote:

I get all my extra codes from here:

rpm -ivh http://www1.mplayerhq.hu/MPlayer/releases/codecs/mplayer-codecs-20061022-1.i...

rpm -ivh http://www1.mplayerhq.hu/MPlayer/releases/codecs/mplayer-codecs-extra-200610...

I can play most audio and video formats on Centos 5.6 including MP3's and M$ format videos :)

Also not part of the official centos repo. And include codecs with license issues. Compare those "mplayer-codecs" packages and those shiped with Fedora and CentOS (or just look at Fedora and CentOS srpms) and you will see which codecs are removed from (official) Fedora and CentOS rpm's

Ljubomir

On Sat, 2011-07-09 at 20:42 +0200, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:

Always Learning wrote:

...

On Sat, 2011-07-09 at 20:25 +0200, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:

...

Most but not all. Windows users have only mp3 music, especially if they have illegal copies like >90% of people in South East Europe. For those you need non-free codecs.

If MP3 music 'works' (meaning it successfully plays on Centos/Gnome) why would additional codecs be required ?

Does it? It was not my experience on either CentOS or Fedora. MP3 codecs are proprietary, and are not distributed by Red Hat distro's (RHEL and Fedora)

...

I'm not very knowledgeable about codecs, which I assume are the audio equivalent of printer drivers. I understand "yum install gstreamer*" adds the legal and the 'bad' codecs which makes unplayable music playable in Centos/Gnome.

As far as I know there is no codec in base repo that can play MP3 files. Not with Gstreamer nor with Xine.

Ljubomir _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos

Here is my setup which includes a few packages from rpmforge. Same setup on a dozen desktops with various hardware. All play mp3.

~]$ rpm -qa | grep gstreamer gstreamer-ffmpeg-0.10.11-1.el6.rf.x86_64 phonon-backend-gstreamer-4.6.2-17.el6.x86_64 gstreamer-plugins-bad-free-0.10.19-2.el6.x86_64 gstreamer-plugins-ugly-0.10.16-2.el6.rf.x86_64 gstreamer-plugins-bad-free-extras-0.10.19-2.el6.x86_64 gstreamer-python-0.10.16-1.1.el6.x86_64 PackageKit-gstreamer-plugin-0.5.8-13.el6.x86_64 gstreamer-tools-0.10.29-1.el6.x86_64 gstreamer-plugins-good-0.10.23-1.el6.x86_64 gstreamer-0.10.29-1.el6.x86_64 gstreamer-plugins-bad-0.10.19-3.el6.rf.x86_64 gstreamer-plugins-base-0.10.29-1.el6.x86_64 [bmcclure@house ~]$

Cheers, B.J.

RHEL 6.0, Linux 2.6.32-131.2.1.el6.x86_64

On Sat, 2011-07-09 at 21:09 +0200, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:

B.J. McClure wrote:

...

Here is my setup which includes a few packages from rpmforge. Same setup on a dozen desktops with various hardware. All play mp3.

~]$ rpm -qa | grep gstreamer gstreamer-ffmpeg-0.10.11-1.el6.rf.x86_64 phonon-backend-gstreamer-4.6.2-17.el6.x86_64 gstreamer-plugins-bad-free-0.10.19-2.el6.x86_64 gstreamer-plugins-ugly-0.10.16-2.el6.rf.x86_64 gstreamer-plugins-bad-free-extras-0.10.19-2.el6.x86_64 gstreamer-python-0.10.16-1.1.el6.x86_64 PackageKit-gstreamer-plugin-0.5.8-13.el6.x86_64 gstreamer-tools-0.10.29-1.el6.x86_64 gstreamer-plugins-good-0.10.23-1.el6.x86_64 gstreamer-0.10.29-1.el6.x86_64 gstreamer-plugins-bad-0.10.19-3.el6.rf.x86_64 gstreamer-plugins-base-0.10.29-1.el6.x86_64 [bmcclure@house ~]$

RPMForge is not "the base/official repo", and you are using -ugly- package for MP3

Gee, I think I mentioned that in the first line of my post.

Quote: "GStreamer Ugly Plug-ins is a set of plug-ins that have good quality and correct functionality, but distributing them might pose problems. The license on either the plug-ins or the supporting libraries might not be how we'd like. The code might be widely known to present patent problems."

Most everyone is aware of that, however, there is a legal distinction between "using" and "distributing", at least where I live.

Cheers, B.J.

Ljubomir _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos

RHEL 6.0, Linux 2.6.32-131.2.1.el6.x86_64

On Sat, 2011-07-09 at 22:00 +0200, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:

This whole thong started from third party repos and @Always Learning insisting MP3 is supported from official RHEL/CentOS repos:

I do not believe I suggested mp3 is supported by ANY repo.

I did mention ...

...

One of the most useful things I discovered was:-

yum install gstreamer*

which installs seemingly everything required to run the most popular audio and video applications in Gnome.

The asterisk after gstreamer includes extras relating to gstreamer.

On Sat, 2011-07-09 at 22:58 +0200, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:

But MP3 support in your case came from RPMForge package (gstreamer-plugins-ugly). I have seen later that you were not aware of that, but that statement on clean CentOS with only official repos would be a false one.

The truth is my mp3 playing ability was installed about a year ago when I was first introduced to Centos and I experienced a very rapid and steep learning curve (which I successfully overcame as usual). I do not know where the mp3 playing ability came from.

I am certain, however, it did NOT come from gstreamer-plugins-ugly because, at the time, I needed gstreamer-plugins-ugly for another task and I did not know then where to get it. My mp3 worked without gstreamer-plugins-ugly.

Ron Blizzard wrote:

On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 4:19 PM, Always Learning centos@u6.u22.net wrote:

...

The truth is my mp3 playing ability was installed about a year ago when I was first introduced to Centos and I experienced a very rapid and steep learning curve (which I successfully overcame as usual). I do not know where the mp3 playing ability came from.

To me it really doesn't matter where it (and the DVD stuff) comes from -- it's just a one-time repository set up anyhow and then it updates itself. What Windows users don't realize is that most of their codecs come from the add-on applications that need to be installed. At least it did in XP (not sure about Vista and Vista 7). Try playing a DVD without installing PowerDVD or burning CDs or DVDs without Nero (for example). The reason most Windows' users don't run into this issue is because their computers usually come pre-installed with OEM software. If you install Linux Mint (for one) you never have to worry about any of this either. And it's only a minor issue with CentOS and those distributions that don't come with codecs (and Flash, etc) pre-installed.

That is exactly why I intend to create "Desktop" version, regular CentOS with additional repositories and virtual package(s) pulling necessary real packages. If launched from main menu it could be done as an add-on package enhancing existing CentOS.

Ljubomir

On Sat, 2011-07-09 at 21:09 +0200, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:

RPMForge is not "the base/official repo", and you are using -ugly- package for MP3

Quote: "GStreamer Ugly Plug-ins is a set of plug-ins that have good quality and correct functionality, but distributing them might pose problems. The license on either the plug-ins or the supporting libraries might not be how we'd like. The code might be widely known to present patent problems."

Pragmatically, either one wants mp3 files to play or one is not too bothered if they do not play.

RPMForge is Dag and friends (uit Belgie). Many including me regard Dag enz. as a wonderful and very useful part of the wider Centos project.

Hi Ljubomir,

...

RPMForge is Dag and friends (uit Belgie). Many including me regard Dag enz. as a wonderful and very useful part of the wider Centos project.

Short version (I am hungry):

Experience (19 years of Windows phone support and 5 years of Linux administration and usage as a desktop surrounded by Windows users) says that in order to convert (reluctant) Windows user you have to fully replicate Windows environment with compatible Linux Apps. Period.

Experience 44 years - it makes me seem old :-( as computer programmer and the usual collection of other computer posts/tasks/assignments I truly believe with Centos and Gnome 90% of "ordinary" M$ Windoze users have what they need. If they use specialist databases and applications not HTML compatible (all mine are HTML compatible so they run on any operating system) they need something which will run in Centos/Gnome.

Dosbox is excellent running pure M$ DOS programmes. Virtualbox and Wine can also help.

Waiting for C6 with KVM as that does seem rather interesting.

Its time for the world to drift away from the M$ Windoze expensive nightmare. Centos is a very good alternative.

John R. Dennison wrote:

On Sat, Jul 09, 2011 at 10:14:28PM +0100, Always Learning wrote:

...

Its time for the world to drift away from the M$ Windoze expensive nightmare. Centos is a very good alternative.

While that might be true, the reality of the situation is different. Until you can provide a seamless drop-in replacement for Windows that does not require a change in work-flow habits learned over the course of, for some, many years such a switchover will _never_ happen en masse.

Well, larger and lager fear of malware, trojans and regular viruses is excellent motivator. Especially when you add need to pay for good AV/IS solution. My country men are poor and paying even 20 EUR per year for good AV/IS software is something they hate and most never do. And when you add the slowdown good AV/IS brings... jackpot.

Ljubomir

Always Learning wrote:

You will probably find that all USA anti-virus products have included a backdoor for at least the last ~15 years or longer. Uncle Sam wants to see inside your computer. Google tracks your browsing especially via Firefox. Why else would Google give Mozilla USD 50 million and more? In Firefox type into the URL box: about:config then search for these strings:-

goo

http

resum

That is why I only install Kaspersky Internet Security on any Windows PC requesting security software.

You must remember the wave of German Country and City computer networks converting to Linux. It was because they have seen Windows infrequently communicating with M$ servers even when their security specialists turned off *any* visible communication and update protocol/option.

Ljubomir

On Sat, Jul 09, 2011 at 10:36:02PM +0100, Always Learning wrote:

You will probably find that all USA anti-virus products have included a backdoor for at least the last ~15 years or longer. Uncle Sam wants to see inside your computer. Google tracks your browsing especially via Firefox. Why else would Google give Mozilla USD 50 million and more? In Firefox type into the URL box: about:config then search for these strings:-

Glad to see you've got your tin hat on. Any more conspiracy theories you'd like to share?

John

On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Always Learning centos@u6.u22.net wrote:

On Sat, 2011-07-09 at 16:45 -0500, John R. Dennison wrote:

...

Glad to see you've got your tin hat on.  Any more conspiracy theories you'd like to share?

Those with functioning brains should be able to realise the consequences of over-surveillance of civilian communities especially in times of peace :-)

Exactly. In the U.S. the whole Constitution was built around limiting government access to your private affairs. The Bill of Rights specifically laid it out:

"Amendment IV - The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

On Sat, Jul 09, 2011 at 11:27:52PM +0200, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:

Well, larger and lager fear of malware, trojans and regular viruses is excellent motivator. Especially when you add need to pay for good AV/IS solution. My country men are poor and paying even 20 EUR per year for good AV/IS software is something they hate and most never do. And when you add the slowdown good AV/IS brings... jackpot.

Meh. Avast, and others, have free licenses for non-commercial usage. If you're talking about commercial usage that's another story.

John

On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 12:00:03AM +0200, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:

Neah. I am talking on how those free AV's are not worth the time spent in installing them. Only heavy-hitters like KIS (KAV not so much) Symantec NIS and one or two others are capable to stop really nasty bug taking over. Even heavy-hitters any at risk if they have idiot controlling them.

Symantec is garbage and has been for many years. Don't care for Kaspersky from past use, but that was indeed KAV as I've not used anything else from them. Perhaps I should evaluate their KIS offering.

I've had absolutely no trouble whatsoever with Avast other than on my own personal desktop and that was strictly caused by my usage patterns and would not affect "normal" users in any way; I recommend and install avast on not only on family and friends boxes but on clients as well.

John

On Sunday, July 10, 2011 03:46 PM, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:

Also worth mentioning is that there is Kaspersky for Linux Workstations and Servers, and even for the Mac: http://www.kaspersky.com/applications_list

Aw, nobody put in a word for NOD32 from Eset?

On Sunday, July 10, 2011 09:52 PM, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:

Christopher Chan wrote:

...

On Sunday, July 10, 2011 03:46 PM, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:

...

Also worth mentioning is that there is Kaspersky for Linux Workstations and Servers, and even for the Mac: http://www.kaspersky.com/applications_list

Aw, nobody put in a word for NOD32 from Eset?

Well, I place it between Kaspersky KIS and above the rest. Some people do love it because of the ease of cracking it's license :-D .

Really? Talk about irony.

On Sat, 2011-07-09 at 16:21 -0500, John R. Dennison wrote:

On Sat, Jul 09, 2011 at 10:14:28PM +0100, Always Learning wrote:

...

Its time for the world to drift away from the M$ Windoze expensive nightmare. Centos is a very good alternative.

While that might be true, the reality of the situation is different. Until you can provide a seamless drop-in replacement for Windows that does not require a change in work-flow habits learned over the course of, for some, many years such a switchover will _never_ happen en masse.

[Iwao clears his throat, arranges his large stack of soap-boxes...]

Microsoft has decided to give alternatives a chance recently, by forcing customers into expensive upgrade cycles which provide no new real features but do require a series of awkward changes in workflow. Consider that OOo got a big boost when MS Office introduced the ribbon menu bar. Also consider the headway Apple is making -- and a transition to OS X workflows is a lot more traumatic to the lay user than transitioning to Gnome 2x, KDE or XFCE-ish environments. But it doesn't matter.

There is more to the market than chasing drop-in replacements (once again, look at Apple).

The real biggest problem is that very few on this side of the fence are any good at marketing -- and part of that is due to the fact that we tend to chase absolute truth and argue it at length, whereas the real heart of marketing is selling dreams in spite of reality (which is a little different than just flat out lying -- but FOSSy folks have difficulty with that concept). This is assisted by the technical nature of our arguments which provides some level of anambiguous reference for discussion. The problem with talking to real customers, however, is that they don't really care about the underlying tech, they care about the end result. So we talk one language to them and they think in another.

Consider that whenever we say "we have developed a superior video codec and container mechanism -- and its free for the world! Technical progress! Freedom!" the guy sitting across the table is usually quiety thinking something along the lines of "...<buzzzzz> does that mean it will put naked ladies on my screen or let me play UltraAwesome3DKnockoffSpaceFight III?" This scenario plays out in various ways depending on the market you're pitching to, of course, but this is roughly what happens. Microsoft, on the other hand, just says "Cool pixels! Look, now the menu bar FADES IN! Did you SEE that?!? And bikini girls at the presentation announcements! And Steve Ballmer walking out from BEHIND FOG! Wow! What a great new OS we have! Yep, email, web browser! Stuff! Cloud! Chat with your grandmother! Movies! Games! We have it all! And... security! Interoperation with all the security vendors you want!" Compare that glitz and marketing sex with, say, the frank and practical expert discussions you can have at the Red Hat booth at a trade show -- we lose unless we are marketing to fellow engineers, which is why Red Hat has cornered that specific market and chases nothing else.

The color of their discussions is entirely different from the way FOSS developers think about things. We have a customer culture problem, not a problem with achieving identical workflows to Windows. Once again, OS X is a good example of just how much if a difference people are willing to accept if the product is superior *and* it is conveyed to them in their language.

Microsoft's genius is that they just tell people what they want to hear, not what is accurate or even true in most cases. Microsoft hypes, FOSS whines. Look at how far they have come with absolutely inferior technology -- to this day! Its amazing and the brilliance underlying that is completely missed by the majority of the FOSS community -- probably because the open source movement is all about truth, and that makes FOSS hype far less titilating than MS hype. MS's discovery was not better technology -- it was that technology that is merely good enough can destroy the market position of superior products if conveyed in a manner that consumers can digest as opposed to the way the creators understand their engineering product.

-Iwao

On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 4:21 PM, John R. Dennison jrd@gerdesas.com wrote:

While that might be true, the reality of the situation is different. Until you can provide a seamless drop-in replacement for Windows that does not require a change in work-flow habits learned over the course of, for some, many years such a switchover will _never_ happen en masse.

I don't think it's going to happen en masse, but I think it is happening. As more and more of computer usage goes to the Web (for non-power users, which are the majority) it becomes easier and easier to accept something other than Windows. I think, for example, the Asus running MeeGo is going to be more successful than Asus' previous Linux netbooks because folks are getting used to using Android and iOS on the Internet. They are beginning to think of the web browser as a replacement for the desktop. I think Google's ChromeOS *might* have been a success, had they not over-priced the machines -- but, personally, I want local storage.

On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 4:14 PM, Always Learning centos@u6.u22.net wrote:

Experience 44 years - it makes me seem old :-( as computer programmer and the usual collection of other computer posts/tasks/assignments I truly believe with Centos and Gnome 90% of "ordinary" M$ Windoze users have what they need.  If they use specialist databases and applications not HTML compatible (all mine are HTML compatible so they run on any operating system) they need something which will run in Centos/Gnome.

I agree. I set my brother and family up with CentOS about two years ago and his whole family uses it -- once it was set up it has required zero maintenance from me. Basically I just had to put the RPM forge in the repository. I have family and friends who use Windows and I've spent a *lot* more time supporting them then I do my father and brother who use Linux.

That said, neither my Dad nor brother play major games on the computer, nor have they ever used M$ Office. My wife uses PowerPoint presentations and she doesn't want to change, so I support XP (on her Desktop) and Windows 7 on her Laptop. (The desktop came with Vista, but she had me install XP -- it took about 20 hours for her to make that decision -- Vista was a dog -- with apologies to dogs.)

So, anyhow, you (generic "you") might be surprised how many people could get along just fine with CentOS on the desktop now. A lot (I would almost say most) personal computer usage is now web-centered. Which is why Android and iOS (and others) are taking off.

For me, personally, I went completely to Linux about three years ago. I never was a big game player and *never* liked M$ Office. I used WordStar for DOS for years, then went to Lotus SmartSuite before moving to Linux. I use a couple specialized Windows programs (NetObjects Fusion and Screenwriter -- and sometimes dBASE for Windows) which run fine in a Windows 2000 virtual machine under VirtualBox. I also occasionally use DOSBox, where I can run WordStar for DOS and dBASE for DOS. That's about all the Linux non-native stuff I use.

On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 10:04 PM, Always Learning centos@u6.u22.net wrote:

I used Ami Pro 3 (from 1993) until I totally switched to Centos last year.

I liked Word Pro (never went as far back as Ami Pro) because it was "cleaner" than Office or WordPerfect. At first I tried WordStar for Windows, but it really wasn't WordStar and it was limited. Word Pro was just a better alternative. My Dad has Lotus SmartSuite installed in Wine, but he hardly ever uses it now -- he's gone to OpenOffice.

Keith Roberts wrote:

On Sat, 9 Jul 2011, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:

***snip***

...

Short version (I am hungry):

Experience (19 years of Windows phone support and 5 years of Linux administration and usage as a desktop surrounded by Windows users) says that in order to convert (reluctant) Windows user you have to fully replicate Windows environment with compatible Linux Apps. Period.

Maybe they'd take a shine to KDE4 or Gnome 3 desktops?

But that would mean using something like Fedora 15 with a maximum update lifetime of ~12 months, or another linux distro with a longer lifetime like Ubuntu ?

I see now that I was misunderstood. I was talking about Apps abilities. "My Windows app would do that automatically" "Why cant I lay MP3's at once? You did install Winamp-like app? In windows Winamp just plays my MP3's", and so on.

The look and feel are not so much the problem as behavior of Apps and the likeness of the App's them selves. Intuitive like-Windows app behavior.

Ljubomir

Keith Roberts wrote:

On Sat, 9 Jul 2011, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:

...

To: CentOS mailing list centos@centos.org From: Ljubomir Ljubojevic office@plnet.rs Subject: Re: [CentOS] Celebrating Centos 6.0 Day World-wide

Keith Roberts wrote:

...

On Sat, 9 Jul 2011, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:

***snip***

...

Short version (I am hungry):

Experience (19 years of Windows phone support and 5 years of Linux administration and usage as a desktop surrounded by Windows users) says that in order to convert (reluctant) Windows user you have to fully replicate Windows environment with compatible Linux Apps. Period.

Maybe they'd take a shine to KDE4 or Gnome 3 desktops?

But that would mean using something like Fedora 15 with a maximum update lifetime of ~12 months, or another linux distro with a longer lifetime like Ubuntu ?

I see now that I was misunderstood. I was talking about Apps abilities. "My Windows app would do that automatically" "Why cant I lay MP3's at once? You did install Winamp-like app? In windows Winamp just plays my MP3's", and so on.

The look and feel are not so much the problem as behavior of Apps and the likeness of the App's them selves. Intuitive like-Windows app behavior.

Yes I understand that Ljubomir. But you can also set the look of most desktops as well, so the Linux desktop windows have a 'Windozey look and feel'. But this still does not take into the way Linux apps work, as opposed to the same or similar Windoze apps. But I guess that's to be expected anyway.

The learning curve for most GUI apps is generally straight forward. Just common sense really. Almost any apps you would look for help under F1, and the File tab is going to be near that.

There are some apps under Linux that are difficult to master, like the GIMP. Another one that comes to mind is Blender IIRC.

But most other apps are just common sense to use in most cases IMHO.

OK. I am concluding this for tonight (it's 23:44 here).

I must be the only one keeping entire/beggining of the conversation in mind why replying. Either that or I am nutz.

Again to the begining of this sub-thread:

Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:

Always Learning wrote:

...

Pragmatically, either one wants mp3 files to play or one is not too bothered if they do not play.

Short version (I am hungry):

Experience (19 years of Windows phone support and 5 years of Linux administration and usage as a desktop surrounded by Windows users) says that in order to convert (reluctant) Windows user you have to fully replicate Windows environment with compatible Linux Apps. Period.

Ljubomir

So I was saying that having mp3 codecs(, seamless printing and scanning...) is important for convert from Windows and you guys started with GUI.....

Ljubomir

Christopher Chan wrote:

But seriously, one thing you have to understand is that threads always drift. People have different takes on what it is that is in the way of the mass adoption of the Linux desktop. Everybody has their pet app that would singlehandedly put Linux on the desktop. Like 3D Pinball. /me ducks.

Oh, I know that. And I also know I am too smart for my own good. Otherwise I would already have several kids and would be blissfully unaware of deeper issues of the world. /me sight

Ljubomir

On Monday, July 11, 2011 10:03 PM, Brunner, Brian T. wrote:

Ljubomir The Wise wrote:

...

Short version (I am hungry):

Experience (19 years of Windows phone support and 5 years of Linux administration and usage as a desktop surrounded by Windows users) says that in order to convert (reluctant) Windows user you have

to fully

...

replicate Windows environment with compatible Linux Apps. Period.

+googolplex! DirectX games, facebook, facebook games, other games, skype, garage-band, and many many more. Many of these *can* be tweaked into running under Linux, by somebody who knows how. My wife will *never* know how. Yum install "World of Warcraft" (or whatever game, which looks for the game installed on your NTFS file system, downloads anything needed, configures and leaves a ready-to-click-and-play WoW on the Linux side) or forget it, you're not ready to push Windows off the desktop.

I hear that WoW is going the way of the dodo due to lack of creativity there. Maybe you have some other more pressing example like....minesweeper?

Brunner, Brian T. wrote:

centos-bounces@centos.org wrote:

...

On Monday, July 11, 2011 10:03 PM, Brunner, Brian T. wrote:

...

Ljubomir The Wise wrote:

...

Short version (I am hungry):

Experience (19 years of Windows phone support and 5 years of Linux administration and usage as a desktop surrounded by Windows users) says that in order to convert (reluctant) Windows user you have to fully replicate Windows environment with compatible Linux Apps. Period.

+googolplex! DirectX games, facebook, facebook games, other games, skype, garage-band, and many many more. Many of these *can* be tweaked into running under Linux, by somebody who knows how. My wife will *never* know how. Yum install "World of Warcraft" (or whatever game, which looks for the game installed on your NTFS file system, downloads anything needed, configures and leaves a ready-to-click-and-play WoW on the Linux side) or forget it, you're not ready to push Windows off the desktop.

I hear that WoW is going the way of the dodo due to lack of creativity

Those voices aren't technologically savvy. WoW is still growing.

...

there. Maybe you have some other more pressing example like....minesweeper? _______________________________________________

I am at a loss parsing your reply as anything other than ignorant derision. Why do you think minesweeper is more pressing?

Perhaps an edit is appropriate: <satire>

...

I hear that WoW is going the way of the dodo due to lack of creativity there. Maybe you have some other more pressing example like....minesweeper?

</satire>

mark "I can stop playing minesweeper any time I want...."

Brunner, Brian T. wrote:

Ljubomir The Wise wrote:

...

Short version (I am hungry):

Experience (19 years of Windows phone support and 5 years of Linux administration and usage as a desktop surrounded by Windows users) says that in order to convert (reluctant) Windows user you have

to fully

...

replicate Windows environment with compatible Linux Apps. Period.

+googolplex! DirectX games, facebook, facebook games, other games, skype, garage-band, and many many more. Many of these *can* be tweaked into running under Linux, by somebody who knows how. My wife will *never* know how. Yum install "World of Warcraft" (or whatever game, which looks for the game installed on your NTFS file system, downloads anything needed, configures and leaves a ready-to-click-and-play WoW on the Linux side) or forget it, you're not ready to push Windows off the desktop.

Go to PlayOnLinux web site, download and install it. Then you can install 70+ games via their interface. Each will have their own tweaked wine configuration.

But I suggest using CentOS 6 for games, it is *much* closer to Fedora (newer all together).

Ljubomir

Always Learning wrote:

Hi Ljubomir,

...

...

If MP3 music 'works' (meaning it successfully plays on Centos/Gnome) why would additional codecs be required ?

...

Does it? It was not my experience on either CentOS or Fedora. MP3 codecs are proprietary, and are not distributed by Red Hat distro's (RHEL and Fedora)

I have been using C 5 for 13 months. Thus I am certainly not an expert on it or on Linux generally.

I have never ever had any problem whatsoever playing MP3 files on Centos 5.x

I use Audacity as my preferred audio programme, generally importing .wav files and exporting them as .mp3 files. The mp3 files simply play and I have never had a problem. Perhaps I obtained the correct codecs without being aware they were fundamental to playing MP3 on Centos/Gnome.

...

As far as I know there is no codec in base repo that can play MP3 files. Not with Gstreamer nor with Xine.

My repos are:-

CentOS-Base.repo CentOS-Debuginfo.repo CentOS-Media.repo CentOS-Vault.repo elrepo.repo epel.repo epel-testing.repo kbsingh-CentOS-Misc.repo rpmforge.repo

which specific codec do you need to play mp3 files in Centos ?

From your repos it could be gstreamer-plugins-ugly package from RPMForge. There are also *-freeworld packages from rpmfusion repo I think. I use Amarok 1.4.14 to play music.

Ljubomir

Lamar Owen wrote:

On Saturday, July 09, 2011 02:25:12 PM Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:

...

Most but not all. Windows users have only mp3 music, especially if they have illegal copies like >90% of people in South East Europe. For those you need non-free codecs.

It's not free, but Fluendo has a zero-cost MP3 decoder for the gstreamer framework. www.fluendo.com

But I assume it is still not part of the official repository since it is not open source which means it can be only in third party repositories which brings us back to the beginning:

Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:

But you should also be prepared to help them with install and primary setup, like adding third party repositories for audio/video codecs and similar.

Ljubomir

Greetings,

On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 11:47 PM, Always Learning centos@u6.u22.net wrote:

On Sat, 2011-07-09 at 20:13 +0200, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:

...

yum install gstreamer*

Is yum install vlc* better that gstreamer?

Ignorant queation: And whch repos should be included 1. for gstreamer and 2. for VLC?

On 09/07/2011 20:13, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:

I already have several friends lined up for installation. But you should also be prepared to help them with install and primary setup, like adding third party repositories for audio/video codecs and similar. Ljubomir

And the next ten years or free technical support :)

I do like Linux over other operating systems, but I wouldn't wish it on any of my non-techie friends...

CentOS is what I primarily work on for Server Labs, not usually desktop environments anyway.

Always Learning wrote:

On Sat, 2011-07-09 at 20:18 +0200, Giles Coochey wrote:

...

I do like Linux over other operating systems, but I wouldn't wish it on any of my non-techie friends...

CentOS is what I primarily work on for Server Labs, not usually desktop environments anyway.

One of my friends, a lady, not technical in any respect, uses Centos in preference to Windoze for her essential requirements like Facebook and web browsing. She thinks Centos is much faster than Windoze Vista on the same machine.

Centos is usable on home PCs.

I plan on creating CentOS 6.0 Desktop off-spin, changing only release package to add priorities and enable Plus and Extras repositories, and then add few selected third party repositories and/or hosting some extra packages not available via yum (VirtualBox, Shorewall, newer versions of OpenOffice,...). I might even see if CentOS and third party repos could create release packages with added Priority value, third party with chosen number higher then 1.

I already have something similar but it uses script to backup and delete current files in /etc/yum.repos.d and install modified .repo files with set priority value for chosen application.

Ljubomir

Joseph L. Casale wrote:

...

I plan on creating CentOS 6.0 Desktop off-spin, changing only release package to add priorities and enable Plus and Extras repositories

Let me know how that Extra repo addition goes:)

Ups. I am getting tired of replying tonight so... well I had in my mind that Extras is not Enabled by default. Was it always enabled?

Ljubomir

Giles Coochey wrote:

On 09/07/2011 20:13, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:

...

I already have several friends lined up for installation. But you should also be prepared to help them with install and primary setup, like adding third party repositories for audio/video codecs and similar. Ljubomir

And the next ten years or free technical support :)

I do like Linux over other operating systems, but I wouldn't wish it on any of my non-techie friends...

CentOS is what I primarily work on for Server Labs, not usually desktop environments anyway.

I have my on CentOS 5.x repository with things like OpenOffice 3.3, latest Skype (static) packed into rpm, and even virtual rpms that install from mine and other third repos all that I like in Desktop application of Linux.

CentOS 6.0 will be even better since it has newer base packages supporting new, better developed applications. When you add Wine+PlayOnLinux (70+ of newer games like Call of Duty 4), but with stability..., you have a winner.

Ljubomir

Keith Roberts wrote:

I'm *very* tempted to start again with a fresh install, and forget the updates - they don't do much anyway!

There is "Autopatcher" software, free. It downloads all updates from M$ site you might need and then you start the process of silent installation of patches. It can take 3-4 hours to update everithing (IE, Adobe, .Net, ...) but there are not many reboots, 2-3 maybe, depends. When you reboot just start paching process again and it will pick where it left off.

And NEVER EVER leave Automatic update..... EVER. If you do, better shoot your self in the head, it will heart far less.

Is there such a thing as a secure Windoze computer?

Sure. Any Powered down Windows is 100% secure :-)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13973805

'More than four million PCs have been enrolled in a botnet security experts say is almost "indestructible". The botnet, known as TDL, targets Windows PCs and is difficult to detect and shut down. Code that hijacks a PC hides in places security software rarely looks and the botnet is controlled using custom-made encryption.'

There is over a billion Windows PC's in the world... When users starts experiencing major slowdown they go and by new PC. What to say...

Ljubomir

Keith Roberts wrote:

On Sat, 9 Jul 2011, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:

...

There is "Autopatcher" software, free. It downloads all updates from M$ site you might need and then you start the process of silent installation of patches. It can take 3-4 hours to update everithing (IE, Adobe, .Net, ...) but there are not many reboots, 2-3 maybe, depends. When you reboot just start paching process again and it will pick where it left off.

Oh yes! I have heard about that before. All needed M$ updates on a CD or DVD. So you can update without having to do the downloads? Thanks for reminding me about that one Ljubomir!

It is not only CD/DVD. They were baned from distribution of M$ files, so you download Autopacher app (~700KB) and it will download everything you need. I keep it on USB flash, but DVD also works.

The only good thing I can say is there is quite alot of good GPL'd applications for Windoze on sourceforge and other websites.

There is also Comodo firewall (with some anti-malware addition). Not GPL but very much free:http://www.comodo.com/home/internet-security/firewall.php

I am mantioning it because he irritates me when he starts to check every app I start. Annoying Security software is often better.

But enough abput Windows or we will be flogged by folks here :-D

Ljubomir

Hoi Rudi,

CentOS is great as a server OS, but it won't replace our accountant's Windows 7 desktop - the amount of technical compatibilies issues we're going to sit with is just not worth it.

Don't use a jack hammer to drive in a nail :)

Centos 5.5 works well for my non-computer literate friends who use a computer for Facebook and web browsing.

I use Centos 5.6 on servers, desktops, home server/desktop, laptop, notebook/netbook and would never willingly return to ghastly M$ Windoze.

On Sat, 2011-07-09 at 22:22 +0200, Rudi Ahlers wrote:

On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 8:04 PM, Always Learning centos@u6.u22.net wrote:

    May I suggest that all us very grateful users of Centos make 6
    copies of
    Centos  6.0 (either i386 or/and X64) and hand then out to
    friends,
    colleagues or strangers (unknown members of the public) who
    might be
    interested in trying Centos ?

This is a great and noble idea but you're going to cause unwanted problems for some people. And often times those people would rather pay the 100pounds extra for Windows than have to try and actually become computer fundies.

My mother, father, in-laws, some friends and many of our client could benefit from the cost saving that Linux has to offer. But they won't change over, no matter you convinsing your story about computer liberty is, cause Linux simmply cannot replave Windows. Not for them at least. Linux doesn't work for everyone.

CentOS is great as a server OS, but it won't replace our accountant's Windows 7 desktop - the amount of technical compatibilies issues we're going to sit with is just not worth it.

Don't use a jack hammer to drive in a nail :)

---- most people primarily use a computer for web and e-mail and thus an iPad is probably all that they need except when they want to print something (ignoring for the moment that Apple pretty much makes you use a computer to interface/put things on/take things off an iPad).

What seems to be significant is people's perception of what a computer should be, do and how to use and thus Windows struggles to retain as much UI from the earlier versions with each new release in order to prevent mass defection.

The reality is that applications are becoming more and more web based SAAS and as the costs of specific applications needed on specific platforms (ie, Quickbooks) rise, web based SAAS will replace them. The point is that for end users, the OS is eventually going to become irrelevant.

Craig

On Sunday, July 10, 2011 05:12 AM, John R. Dennison wrote:

On Sat, Jul 09, 2011 at 02:05:26PM -0700, Craig White wrote:

...

The reality is that applications are becoming more and more web based SAAS and as the costs of specific applications needed on specific platforms (ie, Quickbooks) rise, web based SAAS will replace them. The point is that for end users, the OS is eventually going to become irrelevant.

Tell that to the gamers that drive computer sales and technology advances.

/me rotfl. How big is the PC gaming market again? Compared to that of the console gaming market and other software markets. Oh, and the fact that crap like the Intel Atom have become rather popular.

Where is the blooming mass market HMD? How many gamers play as depicted in .hack? Look at the blow gaming accessories such as joysticks, rudders and throttles have taken.

On 09/07/2011 23:20, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:

Craig White wrote:

...

The reality is that applications are becoming more and more web based SAAS and as the costs of specific applications needed on specific platforms (ie, Quickbooks) rise, web based SAAS will replace them. The point is that for end users, the OS is eventually going to become irrelevant.

Hm. First wider loss of internet access of something like Power loss in Japan will wake up most of the people that are now into Cloud based computing.

Actually, I think first major Cloud player to be majorly hacked will be a double whammy to kill off the 'cloud' mentality:

At least the following two will occur:

* Everyone will question the security and privacy of their data in the 'cloud'. * The cloud provider will shut down for a couple of weeks (like the Playstation saga) to investigate what was accessed and how.

Can your company afford to be without your apps and data for a couple of weeks, while some hacker organisation has it?

I think not.

On 10/07/2011 10:40, Ron Blizzard wrote:

On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 2:19 AM, Giles Coocheygiles@coochey.net wrote:

Can your company afford to be without your apps and data for a couple of weeks, while some hacker organisation has it?

I think not. But it's not like you can't do both. The Cloud has the benefits of convenience (available from anywhere) and flexibility (OS agnostic). You would hope 1) That people back up their work (at least to other locations in the Cloud), and 2) That they have a local substitute suite of applications. And it's not like local machines are immune to hardware and security break downs, especially for the majority who use Windows.

Well, do both then, but at double the cost!!

The whole point to CEOs and CFOs about going with the Cloud is that they will save money on IT infrastructure and possibly get rid of 'that scruffy guy in the basement 'who's done our IT for the last few years'... they never really trusted him anyway, and 'Joe and Bill' from 'ABC Cloud Consulting' seemed like 'my kind of people on the Golf course last Thursday afternoon.'

At this point my music is stored online (Amazon, listening to it now), a lot of my documents are created with Google Docs or Zoho, my email is almost completely online (has been for years), my recent pictures are stored and edited online (Picasa and Piknic), almost all my "TV" watching is done online (Hulu, Crackle, TheWB) and a big chunk of my movies are supplied from online sources (Hulu, Crackle, Netflix).

I'm not really referring to your music, movies and porn. I'm referring to the enterprise applications that corporations use.

On 10/07/2011 11:22, Ron Blizzard wrote:

On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 4:02 AM, Giles Coocheygiles@coochey.net wrote:

...

Well, do both then, but at double the cost!! The whole point to CEOs and CFOs about going with the Cloud is that they will save money on IT infrastructure and possibly get rid of 'that scruffy guy in the basement 'who's done our IT for the last few years'... they never really trusted him anyway, and 'Joe and Bill' from 'ABC Cloud Consulting' seemed like 'my kind of people on the Golf course last Thursday afternoon.'

I get your point about CEOs and CFOs (greed blunts good sense in many instances), but don't most corporations already have local and network backups? So they are already redundant. If they go to the Cloud I would assume they would continue local backups.

(offsite) Backups are usually sold as part of the Cloud service. The very fact that the data is not locally stored anymore makes local backups not very feasible anyway. Many corporations are considering moving their entire infrastructure to cloud or 'cloud-like' services.

Just look at http://www.microsoft.com/office365

It is not being sold as an add-on to enterprise infrastructure, it's being sold as a replacement.

The reference to 'porn' was meant to be a light hearted reference to 'your personal stuff', as opposed to 'your work stuff'.

On 10/07/2011 11:40, Ron Blizzard wrote:

On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 4:32 AM, Giles Coocheygiles@coochey.net wrote:

...

The reference to 'porn' was meant to be a light hearted reference to 'your personal stuff', as opposed to 'your work stuff'.

Okay, you've made good points. Sorry about over-reacting. I'll eventually learn that a CentOS desktop is the exception and try to think in terms of servers. Though I think this thread was basically started as a call to promoting CentOS on the desktop.

Maybe, perhaps I'm blabbering on in the wrong thread.

On the desktop side of things, I do like to run Centos full screen in a VM sometimes and I find the Linux environment does help to focus my mind on things a little - especially when trying to tackle a technical issue, whereas Windows 7 (my VM host environment), seems to provide me with a lot of distractions that seem to fog my mind when I'm trying to think about and resolve things on a technical level.

Again, please accept my apology.

No apology required.