Who cares? I find it amazing that these guys still keep on building and providing considering how their "users" treat them.
Team CentOS, keep your heads up. For me, you are still the best thing that happened since sliced bread.
Come on, community, where is your love?
My 2 pence,
Janne "Janski" AKA JNixus Nyman Founder of Newman IT Solutions Ltd
-----Original Message----- From: centos-request@centos.org Reply-to: centos@centos.org To: centos@centos.org Subject: CentOS Digest, Vol 76, Issue 16 Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 12:00:02 -0400
Re: [CentOS] EL 6 rollout strategies? (Scientific Linux)
On Mon, 2011-05-16 at 19:40 +0100, Janne TH. Nyman wrote:
Who cares? I find it amazing that these guys still keep on building and providing considering how their "users" treat them.
Team CentOS, keep your heads up. For me, you are still the best thing that happened since sliced bread.
Come on, community, where is your love?
My 2 pence,
Janne "Janski" AKA JNixus Nyman Founder of Newman IT Solutions Ltd
+1
On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 1:40 PM, Janne TH. Nyman jnyman@jbtec.org wrote:
Who cares? I find it amazing that these guys still keep on building and providing considering how their "users" treat them.
Team CentOS, keep your heads up. For me, you are still the best thing that happened since sliced bread.
Come on, community, where is your love?
My 2 pence,
Hopefully, deep down, the CentOS developers know that it's the same few whiners over and over and over and over again... like broken records. They've got it in their mind that they know so much better how it *should* be done. Armchair quarterbacks always *know* better.
At any rate, +1.
On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 2:40 PM, Janne TH. Nyman jnyman@jbtec.org wrote:
Who cares? I find it amazing that these guys still keep on building and providing considering how their "users" treat them.
Team CentOS, keep your heads up. For me, you are still the best thing that happened since sliced bread.
Come on, community, where is your love?
My 2 pence,
Janne "Janski" AKA JNixus Nyman Founder of Newman IT Solutions Ltd
These kind of ass-kissing posts are even worse than the flame wars. The flame wars at least usually start with some sort of reasonable criticism of the project, and have the *potential* to result in a discussion that ultimately improves the project. Ass kissing never has the potential to improve the project.
Flame wars only start once Johnny or some sycophant tells everyone to fuck off, thereby derailing any potential for a constructive discussion. At that point you're left with lots of very smart, very angry people who feel like they wasted their time promoting and using CentOS.
// Brian Mathis
On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 3:59 PM, Brian Mathis
These kind of ass-kissing posts are even worse than the flame wars. The flame wars at least usually start with some sort of reasonable criticism of the project, and have the *potential* to result in a discussion that ultimately improves the project. Ass kissing never has the potential to improve the project.
Flame wars only start once Johnny or some sycophant tells everyone to fuck off, thereby derailing any potential for a constructive discussion. At that point you're left with lots of very smart, very angry people who feel like they wasted their time promoting and using CentOS.
Give me a break. Any human being, who's been working his ass off for nearly seven months to get out three separate releases of CentOS, would lose patience when all that comes from the sidelines is the constant drip, drip, drip of unending whining from a few repeat-o-matic cranks. I've basically ignored this mailing list for months because of it -- and have just recently come back to read it, and I'm already fed up with it. How the developers have put up with it for months, I have no idea.
And, as for "ass-kissing" (as you so politely put it), I use and *like* CentOS and am grateful for all the work the developers put into it. And, especially since the ungrateful whiners can only bitch and bitch and bitch, I think every now and then the developers need to hear that there are those who appreciate their work.
As I've told Les, if you know so much better how to do this, why don't you rebuild your own Red Hat distribution? So much easier to "do it" when you're not actually "doing it," isn't it?
On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 5:11 PM, Ron Blizzard rb4centos@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 3:59 PM, Brian Mathis
These kind of ass-kissing posts are even worse than the flame wars. The flame wars at least usually start with some sort of reasonable criticism of the project, and have the *potential* to result in a discussion that ultimately improves the project. Ass kissing never has the potential to improve the project.
Flame wars only start once Johnny or some sycophant tells everyone to fuck off, thereby derailing any potential for a constructive discussion. At that point you're left with lots of very smart, very angry people who feel like they wasted their time promoting and using CentOS.
Give me a break. Any human being, who's been working his ass off for nearly seven months to get out three separate releases of CentOS, would lose patience when all that comes from the sidelines is the constant drip, drip, drip of unending whining from a few repeat-o-matic cranks. I've basically ignored this mailing list for months because of it -- and have just recently come back to read it, and I'm already fed up with it. How the developers have put up with it for months, I have no idea.
And, as for "ass-kissing" (as you so politely put it), I use and *like* CentOS and am grateful for all the work the developers put into it. And, especially since the ungrateful whiners can only bitch and bitch and bitch, I think every now and then the developers need to hear that there are those who appreciate their work.
As I've told Les, if you know so much better how to do this, why don't you rebuild your own Red Hat distribution? So much easier to "do it" when you're not actually "doing it," isn't it?
-- RonB -- Using CentOS 5.6
The constant "drip drip drip", as you put it, is generated from the disrespect shown to the users, not the other way around. Anyone who asks how much longer or how they can help is immediately slapped down and told to go away.
The understanding that's missing from the Devs and sycophants is that users are asking BECAUSE THEY CARE. BECAUSE THEY LIKE THE PROJECT. BECAUSE THEY UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS A LOT OF WORK. And their concern is met with nothing but derision and accusations of being constant freeloading whiners.
As for appreciating the developers, that is what all of the posts complaining about the process are about. People complain they can't help. People complain they can't do anything. People complain that when they ask, they are shut out instead of welcomed in. All of this comes from a desire to help the project.
The sycophants simply unable to have any real discussion. Those with criticisms have valid ones, but the responses do not actually address the problems -- they just ignite the flames. Anyone making personal attacks like calling people whiners or crybabies are really the ones causing the problem here, because there is no hope of ever making those constructive.
While the "whiners" my not have done anything to help, what have the "supporters" done? Any one of them could start digging in to the available and possibly back-channel information to have something to supply other than calling people names. Surely working to get that information out to users would stop these constant email chains more constructively than the name-calling? So I guess anyone not doing that is also a freeloading leech?
// Brian Mathis
On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Brian Mathis
The constant "drip drip drip", as you put it, is generated from the disrespect shown to the users, not the other way around. Anyone who asks how much longer or how they can help is immediately slapped down and told to go away.
Bullcrap. I've seen the same old droning by the same posters for at least a year now. It's not "constructive criticism" it's whining. When the developers tell you that adding more and more work will slow (not speed) CentOS development, they probably know what they're talking about. You think?
The understanding that's missing from the Devs and sycophants is that users are asking BECAUSE THEY CARE. BECAUSE THEY LIKE THE PROJECT. BECAUSE THEY UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS A LOT OF WORK. And their concern is met with nothing but derision and accusations of being constant freeloading whiners.
When all I see is constant whining, and empty "threats" to move to another distribution, what else can I conclude except that whiners will be whiners. If you suggest something, and it's rejected (for whatever reason) it's no longer "constructive criticism" to keep droning on about it. I don't see "concern," I see whining.
As for appreciating the developers, that is what all of the posts complaining about the process are about. People complain they can't help. People complain they can't do anything. People complain that when they ask, they are shut out instead of welcomed in. All of this comes from a desire to help the project.
No, what *some* users whine about is that they can't control the process. They're miffed because their "great" suggestions are rejected. I realize that I'm probably lumping all complainers into the same category -- sorry but I'm fed up with the constant drip, drip, drip. At the very least let the developers get out from under the workload before offering yet more "constructive criticism."
The sycophants simply unable to have any real discussion. Those with criticisms have valid ones, but the responses do not actually address the problems -- they just ignite the flames. Anyone making personal attacks like calling people whiners or crybabies are really the ones causing the problem here, because there is no hope of ever making those constructive.
"Ignite the flames?" Right. When I come here I see whining. I see complaints about the time required to rebuild CentOS. I see myself called a "sycophant" for defending the developers. But I'm the one "igniting the flames." What a pant load.
While the "whiners" my not have done anything to help, what have the "supporters" done? Any one of them could start digging in to the available and possibly back-channel information to have something to supply other than calling people names. Surely working to get that information out to users would stop these constant email chains more constructively than the name-calling? So I guess anyone not doing that is also a freeloading leech?
We "supporters" (like he quotes, by the way) don't see the huge "problem" the "concerned" constantly yammer on about. We appreciate all the hard work and realize that CentOS is not Red Hat and that, if we absolutely have to have the newest releases immediately, we can go with the "upstream."
Good thing the "concerned" don't engage in "name calling" like the us "sycophants."
On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 7:03 PM, Ron Blizzard rb4centos@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Brian Mathis
The constant "drip drip drip", as you put it, is generated from the disrespect shown to the users, not the other way around. Anyone who asks how much longer or how they can help is immediately slapped down and told to go away.
Bullcrap. I've seen the same old droning by the same posters for at least a year now. It's not "constructive criticism" it's whining. When the developers tell you that adding more and more work will slow (not speed) CentOS development, they probably know what they're talking about. You think?
The understanding that's missing from the Devs and sycophants is that users are asking BECAUSE THEY CARE. BECAUSE THEY LIKE THE PROJECT. BECAUSE THEY UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS A LOT OF WORK. And their concern is met with nothing but derision and accusations of being constant freeloading whiners.
When all I see is constant whining, and empty "threats" to move to another distribution, what else can I conclude except that whiners will be whiners. If you suggest something, and it's rejected (for whatever reason) it's no longer "constructive criticism" to keep droning on about it. I don't see "concern," I see whining.
As for appreciating the developers, that is what all of the posts complaining about the process are about. People complain they can't help. People complain they can't do anything. People complain that when they ask, they are shut out instead of welcomed in. All of this comes from a desire to help the project.
No, what *some* users whine about is that they can't control the process. They're miffed because their "great" suggestions are rejected. I realize that I'm probably lumping all complainers into the same category -- sorry but I'm fed up with the constant drip, drip, drip. At the very least let the developers get out from under the workload before offering yet more "constructive criticism."
The sycophants simply unable to have any real discussion. Those with criticisms have valid ones, but the responses do not actually address the problems -- they just ignite the flames. Anyone making personal attacks like calling people whiners or crybabies are really the ones causing the problem here, because there is no hope of ever making those constructive.
"Ignite the flames?" Right. When I come here I see whining. I see complaints about the time required to rebuild CentOS. I see myself called a "sycophant" for defending the developers. But I'm the one "igniting the flames." What a pant load.
While the "whiners" my not have done anything to help, what have the "supporters" done? Any one of them could start digging in to the available and possibly back-channel information to have something to supply other than calling people names. Surely working to get that information out to users would stop these constant email chains more constructively than the name-calling? So I guess anyone not doing that is also a freeloading leech?
We "supporters" (like he quotes, by the way) don't see the huge "problem" the "concerned" constantly yammer on about. We appreciate all the hard work and realize that CentOS is not Red Hat and that, if we absolutely have to have the newest releases immediately, we can go with the "upstream."
Good thing the "concerned" don't engage in "name calling" like the us "sycophants." -- RonB -- Using CentOS 5.6
People don't complain just for the fun of it (if that's the world you live in, I feel sorry for you), they complain because something is bothering them. In this case, it is the very real and measurable delays in releases that seem to be getting longer. Release delays are an incontrovertible fact in this case, and anyone arguing otherwise needs their logic unit replaced.
The case becomes even stronger given that, as you say, people have been complaining for "at least a year now". That shows a long term pattern of the same issue coming up over and over and bothering people. There really can be no stronger case that is supported by both logic and evidence that there is a problem. It has been mentioned in numerous blog posts, twitter posts, and tech magazines.
Given that the issue is so clear, it adds insult to insult when someone asks about it and is treated like the problem doesn't exist. Suggestions given by people are rejected flat out not because they don't like the suggestion, but by countering that the problem doesn't exist. This is what's so inflammatory and causes so many flame wars. Having a constructive discussion is derailed most frequently not by the complainers, but by the "if-you-don't-like-it-get-off-my-lawn"s.
// Brian Mathis
On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 8:46 PM, Brian Mathis
People don't complain just for the fun of it (if that's the world you live in, I feel sorry for you), they complain because something is bothering them. In this case, it is the very real and measurable delays in releases that seem to be getting longer. Release delays are an incontrovertible fact in this case, and anyone arguing otherwise needs their logic unit replaced.
Up until 6.0 (with three releases at once 6.0, 5.6 and 4.9) we've seen the average delay for 5.x releases was 41.5 days. 5.5 came out in 44 days. If you can't wait a month and a half (or even two months) you should probably buy Red Hat.
The case becomes even stronger given that, as you say, people have been complaining for "at least a year now". That shows a long term pattern of the same issue coming up over and over and bothering people. There really can be no stronger case that is supported by both logic and evidence that there is a problem. It has been mentioned in numerous blog posts, twitter posts, and tech magazines.
No, the same *very* few people have been complaining for over a year now. And they're not just complaining about delays, they're complaining about "lack of community input into what constitutes CentOS." Even to the point of saying that they should be "in the loop" in deciding what goes into CentOS ("like Fedora"). News to whiners, CentOS is a rebuild project, the goal is to rebuild Red Hat. (No further input needed on that subject.) As for length of time, CentOS 5.5 came out less than a year ago. It took 44 days. Again, if that's too long of a wait, maybe you should move to Red Hat.
Given that the issue is so clear, it adds insult to insult when someone asks about it and is treated like the problem doesn't exist. Suggestions given by people are rejected flat out not because they don't like the suggestion, but by countering that the problem doesn't exist. This is what's so inflammatory and causes so many flame wars. Having a constructive discussion is derailed most frequently not by the complainers, but by the "if-you-don't-like-it-get-off-my-lawn"s.
No, the issue isn't that "clear." The average time of releases has slipped from the original 28 days to 41.5 days (pre 5.6 and the triple whammy). For me the real issue *is* the whining. The constant drip, drip, dripping... and I'm just reading the mailing list. Imagine what it must be like for those who are actually doing the work.
Nothing is holding you to CentOS, so I'm guessing (despite the delays) it must fill a need you have. Maybe a little understanding (putting yourself in the other person's shoes) and a bit gratitude should be forthcoming.
And, by the way, not directed specifically at you, but reading between the lines it appears that one issue may be that some contractors are selling cheap "Red Hat" to their customers and then, when the customers ask "Where's the update?" they're scrambling to explain the situation. They need to be up front. "We're using a Red Hat rebuild, CentOS... updates are delayed. It's the nature of a rebuild."
On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 10:37 AM, Ron Blizzard wrote:
And, by the way, not directed specifically at you, but reading between the lines it appears that one issue may be that some contractors are selling cheap "Red Hat" to their customers and then, when the customers ask "Where's the update?" they're scrambling to explain the situation. They need to be up front. "We're using a Red Hat rebuild, CentOS... updates are delayed. It's the nature of a rebuild."
+1
Maybe all the non-technical discussions could go into a "CentOS Politics/Philosophy" new list...?
JD
On 05/17/2011 03:06 AM, John Doe wrote:
Maybe all the non-technical discussions could go into a "CentOS Politics/Philosophy" new list...?
And on that note, some required reading for everyone in this floating flame war. Don't skim it - read it.
http://www.shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html
On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 07:56 PM, Jerry Franz wrote:
On 05/17/2011 03:06 AM, John Doe wrote:
Maybe all the non-technical discussions could go into a "CentOS Politics/Philosophy" new list...?
And on that note, some required reading for everyone in this floating flame war. Don't skim it - read it.
"IRC channels and mailing lists are self-moderating with scale, because as the signal to noise ratio gets worse, people start to drop off, until it gets better, so people join, and so it gets worse. You get these sort of oscillating patterns. But it's self-correcting."
Who needs moderators? :-p
Interesting stuff about core groups and 'paranoid leaders that are good at identifying external enemies' - gee Shirky, did you have to put it that way? ;-P
On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 07:56:59 AM Jerry Franz wrote:
On 05/17/2011 03:06 AM, John Doe wrote:
Maybe all the non-technical discussions could go into a "CentOS Politics/Philosophy" new list...?
And on that note, some required reading for everyone in this floating flame war. Don't skim it - read it.
That is a good read; particularly the piece about the probability of a group asking for a moderator is directly proportional to the age of the group (not an exact quote).
Thanks for posting.
Lamar Owen wrote:
On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 07:56:59 AM Jerry Franz wrote:
On 05/17/2011 03:06 AM, John Doe wrote:
Maybe all the non-technical discussions could go into a "CentOS Politics/Philosophy" new list...?
And on that note, some required reading for everyone in this floating flame war. Don't skim it - read it.
That is a good read; particularly the piece about the probability of a group asking for a moderator is directly proportional to the age of the group (not an exact quote).
If we *really* need a moderator, here's an option: soc.religion.paganism has a robomoderator; on topic posts get autoapproved, obviously off-topic get bounced, and if there's any question, they get randomly bounced to a configurable number of human moderators, allowing for load balancing on the humans (and vacations, sick time, etc).
mark
On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 11:33:37 AM m.roth@5-cent.us wrote:
If we *really* need a moderator, here's an option: soc.religion.paganism has a robomoderator; on topic posts get autoapproved, obviously off-topic get bounced, and if there's any question, they get randomly bounced to a configurable number of human moderators, allowing for load balancing on the humans (and vacations, sick time, etc).
I had actually thought along the lines of the IRC centbot......just need IBM's Watson to do the decode of the post, and fire up a centbot e-mail based on it. Banning the thread in mailman after the centbot posts would be extra good. The hard part is the 'IBM's Watson doing the decode' .....
Although this sounds like a job for a Bayesian filter, really. Just need to feed the filter the CentOS list archives in their entirety, and categorize them....
Either that or adopt the Slashdot method of moderation: 'hey, you get five days, but if you reply to the thread you get no more....'
Am 17.05.11 17:33, schrieb m.roth@5-cent.us:
If we *really* need a moderator, here's an option: soc.religion.paganism has a robomoderator; on topic posts get autoapproved, obviously off-topic get bounced, and if there's any question, they get randomly bounced to a configurable number of human moderators, allowing for load balancing on the humans (and vacations, sick time, etc).
Well, too much work for what it is worth. I once helped moderating a newsgroup and that is a task I at least won't do again. Still hoping for some common sense :)
Cheers,
Ralph
On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 12:52:09AM +0200, Ralph Angenendt wrote:
Well, too much work for what it is worth. I once helped moderating a newsgroup and that is a task I at least won't do again. Still hoping for some common sense :)
+1
John
On 5/17/11, m.roth@5-cent.us m.roth@5-cent.us wrote:
If we *really* need a moderator, here's an option: soc.religion.paganism has a robomoderator; on topic posts get autoapproved, obviously off-topic get bounced, and if there's any question, they get randomly bounced to a configurable number of human moderators, allowing for load balancing on the humans (and vacations, sick time, etc).
As already said, this sounds really complicated. Coming from an IRC and vBB admin background, I'll suggest moderation using the reactive approach instead of a automated process.
In the context of a ML, the signature could include a link with an unique subscriber/msg hash that triggers an email to moderators only if a threshold is reached. This limit actual moderation only to threads/posts that are really offensive to the point people are willing to actively flag it rather than rely on some automated process to decide if something's really off-topic or offensive.
Emmanuel Noobadmin wrote:
On 5/17/11, m.roth@5-cent.us m.roth@5-cent.us wrote:
If we *really* need a moderator, here's an option: soc.religion.paganism has a robomoderator; on topic posts get autoapproved, obviously off-topic get bounced, and if there's any question, they get randomly bounced to a configurable number of human moderators, allowing for load balancing on the humans (and vacations, sick time, etc).
As already said, this sounds really complicated. Coming from an IRC and vBB admin background, I'll suggest moderation using the reactive approach instead of a automated process.
Not really. The perl script was written, um, around 1993 or '94, and it was based on one from talk.lang.russian? something like that. <snip>
mark
On 5/19/11, m.roth@5-cent.us m.roth@5-cent.us wrote:
As already said, this sounds really complicated. Coming from an IRC and vBB admin background, I'll suggest moderation using the reactive approach instead of a automated process.
Not really. The perl script was written, um, around 1993 or '94, and it was based on one from talk.lang.russian? something like that.
<snip>
<context>skeptic about automated censorship and 'communities' void of human expression</context>
The primary concern was that it would take a lot of tuning to get an automated filter working without bouncing perfectly legit posts. After all, this discussion about a need for moderation may very well fall into "obvious" off-topic. And being the continual victim of apparently some kind of automated filter on several mailing lists (including this one it seems as some of my posts never show up), I'm rather distrustful of automated moderation.
For example, a perfectly acceptable, from my POV, joke about a statement somebody made that lightens up the mood and give everybody a good chuckle may be considered OK by most subscribers but again, automated censors do not have a sense of humour.
If the filters are too lax, then the moderators would keep getting verification requests. After a while if false positives rate are too high, moderators will feel frustrated too or start ignoring anything they didn't come across first hand.
Hence I feel it's better to rely on the human flagging process. After all, if only the automated filter and maybe one person feels a thread/post should be a bounce, is that really deserving of a bounce?
On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 04:59:42PM -0400, Brian Mathis wrote:
Flame wars only start once Johnny or some sycophant tells everyone to fuck off, thereby derailing any potential for a constructive discussion. At that point you're left with lots of very smart, very angry people who feel like they wasted their time promoting and using CentOS.
If they were so smart they'd roll up their sleeves and do it themselves. If they were so smart you'd think that in all the time they've spent bitching about things they would have been able to churn out a rebuild on their own.
Additionally if they were so angry they'd spend some time looking into alternatives. The same crybabies are still here.
The chances of a constructive discussion pretty much went away months ago; the signal/noise ratio on this list has gone from quite good to effectively white-noise over the past few months with the constant crap from the same few loudmouths.
John
Same weekly/bi-monthly BS.
YAAWWWWNNNN
It always circles back to a#$holes and elbows.
- aurf
On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 7:17 PM, aurfalien@gmail.com wrote:
Same weekly/bi-monthly BS.
YAAWWWWNNNN
It always circles back to a#$holes and elbows.
This is the main reason I want CentOS 6 to come out. I'm hoping for a lull in the whining.
On May 16, 2011, at 5:22 PM, Ron Blizzard wrote:
On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 7:17 PM, aurfalien@gmail.com wrote:
Same weekly/bi-monthly BS.
YAAWWWWNNNN
It always circles back to a#$holes and elbows.
This is the main reason I want CentOS 6 to come out. I'm hoping for a lull in the whining.
I know, once Idol finishes and Centos 6 relz, we'll have to find some thing else to rail about.
- aurf
On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 7:25 PM, aurfalien@gmail.com wrote:
On May 16, 2011, at 5:22 PM, Ron Blizzard wrote:
On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 7:17 PM, aurfalien@gmail.com wrote:
Same weekly/bi-monthly BS.
YAAWWWWNNNN
It always circles back to a#$holes and elbows.
This is the main reason I want CentOS 6 to come out. I'm hoping for a lull in the whining.
I know, once Idol finishes and Centos 6 relz, we'll have to find some thing else to rail about.
I guess 6.1 is around the corner. Heck, this particular thread could still be going by the time 7.0 comes out.
on 5/16/2011 11:40 AM Janne TH. Nyman spake the following:
Who cares? I find it amazing that these guys still keep on building and providing considering how their "users" treat them.
Team CentOS, keep your heads up. For me, you are still the best thing that happened since sliced bread.
I always wondered what was the best thing BEFORE sliced bread... LOL
on 5/16/2011 11:40 AM Janne TH. Nyman spake the following:
Who cares? I find it amazing that these guys still keep on building and providing considering how their "users" treat them.
Team CentOS, keep your heads up. For me, you are still the best thing that happened since sliced bread.
I always wondered what was the best thing BEFORE sliced bread... LOL
CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
I never thought sliced bread was all that great.
Wouldn't it be better for people to donate money to help push things along faster?
I mean if your really upset about how long its taken to come out why don't you donate some money to help the people who are working for free?
IDK just my two cents.
On 05/16/2011 02:44 PM, nemus@grayhatlabs.com wrote:
I never thought sliced bread was all that great.
Wouldn't it be better for people to donate money to help push things along faster?
I mean if your really upset about how long its taken to come out why don't you donate some money to help the people who are working for free?
Love to. Actually got approval from my company to do so years ago: The project donations page has been down ("CentOS is currently reviewing our cash donation program. In the mean time we are not accepting any financial donations. We do appreciate though, if you want to - for example - help out with promo material. See our Wiki page on donations http://wiki.centos.org/Donate for more up to date information.") for around two years now.
It is very hard to take dev complaints about how 'no one wants to contribute' seriously when the devs have avoided setting up an easy mechanism for people to contribute money *to the project* for years now. Money doesn't solve all problems (and creates some new ones of its own), but it can pay developers, buy new servers for development, and create other resources.
But I will not throw money at the devs as no-string gifts to them as individuals. If they want to 'board the gravy train' by making a living from the project, I'm thrilled for them. I've no problem with people being compensated for their work. Form a formally chartered organization with accountable mechanisms for paying the devs. Go to town on it.
If they just want people to give them money personally (which some devs have, perhaps tongue in cheek, suggested on this list) with no accountability or expectation that that money actually specifically support the project, well, they can keep dreaming.
Am 17.05.11 13:37, schrieb Benjamin Franz:
On 05/16/2011 02:44 PM, nemus@grayhatlabs.com wrote:
I never thought sliced bread was all that great.
Wouldn't it be better for people to donate money to help push things along faster?
I mean if your really upset about how long its taken to come out why don't you donate some money to help the people who are working for free?
Love to. Actually got approval from my company to do so years ago: The project donations page has been down ("CentOS is currently reviewing our cash donation program. In the mean time we are not accepting any financial donations. We do appreciate though, if you want to - for example - help out with promo material. See our Wiki page on donations http://wiki.centos.org/Donate for more up to date information.") for around two years now.
Which somehow seems to be a sign that money is not what is needed by the project. It is after all a project run by people which have normal jobs on the side.
It is very hard to take dev complaints about how 'no one wants to contribute' seriously when the devs have avoided setting up an easy mechanism for people to contribute money *to the project* for years now. Money doesn't solve all problems (and creates some new ones of its own), but it can pay developers, buy new servers for development, and create other resources.
We're still looking for people offering things like promo swag which can then be given away at fairs (especially things like preprinted DVDs, Shirts and other giveaway things). Maybe I should update that page to point at the wiki page http://wiki.centos.org/Donate which already has some of that stuff. Money is not really what the project is after.
If they just want people to give them money personally (which some devs have, perhaps tongue in cheek, suggested on this list) with no accountability or expectation that that money actually specifically support the project, well, they can keep dreaming.
I wonder which devs that should have been - well I haven't read this list for some time, so I probably overlooked it.
Ralph
Janne TH. Nyman wrote:
Who cares? I find it amazing that these guys still keep on building and providing considering how their "users" treat them.
Team CentOS, keep your heads up. For me, you are still the best thing that happened since sliced bread.
Come on, community, where is your love?
My 2 pence,
+1111111111111
Ljubomir
-
aurfalien＠gmail.com -
Benjamin Franz -
Brian Mathis -
Christopher Chan -
Emmanuel Noobadmin -
Janne TH. Nyman -
Jerry Franz
-
John Doe -
John R. Dennison -
Lamar Owen -
Ljubomir Ljubojevic -
Louis Lagendijk -
m.roth＠5-cent.us -
nemus＠grayhatlabs.com -
Ralph Angenendt -
Ron Blizzard -
Scott Silva