As the OP for this thread, it saddens me to see that the thread I started has now been used as a forum for behavior of the worst kind seen in professional circles.
I'm a longtime user of CentOS and merely wanted to know of users' past experiences transitioning between SL and CentOS. My first experience with CentOS was as a transition from Whitebox to CentOS, and the process was as simple as swapping out perhap 3 RPMs and a "yum update". That's it, and that same server is still chugging along today many years later.
Both CentOS and WBEL had the same goal, near-perfect compatibility with RHEL, but SL has slightly different goals. What are users' past experiences doing a "hot swap out" of SL for CentOS and/or vice versa?
I have tremendoud respect for the CentOS project. The developers here cast an extremely long shadow that we should all admire and respect. This is a bit of a dark time here, prompted by a delayed release of EL6 that was already delayed by Red Hat for their own (probably similar) reasons. SysAdmin frustration is at a high point as a result of these combined factors, causing many involved to question even the very best of decisions.
I suspect that the many requests for ETAs are exacerbating the issue that the CentOS developers simply cannot predict a final release date, which is further exacerbated by the otherwise noteworthy, high-quality QA now in place, which is causing requests for build changes that delay the release and cause need for further QA checks on packages rebuild due to deps changes.
It's a perfect storm of factors that, together, result in the current situation. I'm a developer; this type of situation is unfortunately common and can be frustrating for all involved, and just cannot be completely avoided!
The choices are clear, however:
1) Stick w/CentOS, get a high quality, highly compatible release at little/no cost, with an uncertain release date. 2) Switch to SL, get a high quality, reduced compatibility release (due to slightly different goals and qualities) at little/no cost, right now; 3) Switch to RHEL, get a quality release at significant cost, right now. 4) Complain loudly about how it's not perfect and/or get angry at people who question your motives and/or competence after years of otherwise successful cooperation.
I wish option #4 was not so commonly exercised here. It really might be a good time to consider moderation. Anybody want to volunteer as a moderator?
-Benjamin Smith
On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 11:17 PM, Benjamin Smith lists@benjamindsmith.com wrote:
The choices are clear, however:
- Stick w/CentOS, get a high quality, highly compatible release at
little/no cost, with an uncertain release date.
I would say the "uncertain release date" is pretty much moot now, as CentOS has reached QA. According to the calendar, the date CentOS (tentatively) is going to start syncing to the mirrors is May 31st.
http://qaweb.dev.centos.org/qa/
On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 12:17 PM, Benjamin Smith wrote:
I wish option #4 was not so commonly exercised here. It really might be a good time to consider moderation. Anybody want to volunteer as a moderator?
The Centos ML does quite well without a moderator imho. No need to go draconian like other projects/'communities'
On Tue, 17 May 2011, Christopher Chan wrote:
The Centos ML does quite well without a moderator imho. No need to go draconian like other projects/'communities'
I think a moderated mailing list around release time sounds like bliss to me.
jh
On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 05:50 PM, John Hodrien wrote:
On Tue, 17 May 2011, Christopher Chan wrote:
The Centos ML does quite well without a moderator imho. No need to go draconian like other projects/'communities'
I think a moderated mailing list around release time sounds like bliss to me.
Yeah...for you...think of the poor moderator!
On Tue, 17 May 2011, Christopher Chan wrote:
I think a moderated mailing list around release time sounds like bliss to me.
Yeah...for you...think of the poor moderator!
Well, we could sign up on a rota...
jh
On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 05:58:31PM +0800, Christopher Chan wrote:
Yeah...for you...think of the poor moderator!
I'd be more than happy to moderate the list. I can assure you that the current trolls will be back in their cages safely under their bridges in short order.
John
On 17 May 2011 11:03, John R. Dennison jrd@gerdesas.com wrote:
On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 05:58:31PM +0800, Christopher Chan wrote:
Yeah...for you...think of the poor moderator!
I'd be more than happy to moderate the list. I can assure you that the current trolls will be back in their cages safely under their bridges in short order.
John
Hang around in OpenBSD-misc or Full-Disclosure for a while to reset your values of ML behaviour :)
Idiot trolls like Radu Gheorghiu don't even make it into my fetchmailrc.
That being said, whining about the delay to the point where one of the people doing the work is obviously pissed off is just stupid.
from theo.c "Whiners. They scale really well."
mike sorry 4 adding to the decrease in SNR
On 05/17/2011 01:46 PM, Michael Simpson wrote:
On 17 May 2011 11:03, John R. Dennisonjrd@gerdesas.com wrote:
On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 05:58:31PM +0800, Christopher Chan wrote:
Yeah...for you...think of the poor moderator!
I'd be more than happy to moderate the list. I can assure you that the current trolls will be back in their cages safely under their bridges in short order.
JohnHang around in OpenBSD-misc or Full-Disclosure for a while to reset your values of ML behaviour :)
Idiot trolls like Radu Gheorghiu don't even make it into my fetchmailrc.
Why am I a troll, when I simply state my opinion? Is this mailling list the place where we can simply insult everyone we don't like? Michael, saying that I am an idiot, does that make you feel better? Do you feel reliefed now? Is CentOS 6 any closer now? What is wrong with you people?
That being said, whining about the delay to the point where one of the people doing the work is obviously pissed off is just stupid.
from theo.c "Whiners. They scale really well."
mike sorry 4 adding to the decrease in SNR _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 06:03 PM, John R. Dennison wrote:
On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 05:58:31PM +0800, Christopher Chan wrote:
Yeah...for you...think of the poor moderator!
I'd be more than happy to moderate the list. I can assure you that the current trolls will be back in their cages safely under their bridges in short order.
Hey all,
We have a volunteer!
we do not need post by post moderation so to speak
we need several lists...
two of which are
babies / horses behind list
adult list
when you prove your "centos helpfulness & community worth" on the babies list, you get to be in the adult list
this would seem easier to admin...
i would actually consider being *one* of the admins in an implementation like that...
- rh
While this sounds like humorous way to deal with the problem, what about all of us silent users who just watch the list for news and generally ignore the bonus nonsense that makes the list...
We the silent would miss out on important news...
On 5/17/2011 1:27 PM, R - elists wrote:
we do not need post by post moderation so to speak
we need several lists...
two of which are
babies / horses behind list
adult list
when you prove your "centos helpfulness& community worth" on the babies list, you get to be in the adult list
this would seem easier to admin...
i would actually consider being *one* of the admins in an implementation like that...
- rh
CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
centos-bounces@centos.org wrote:
While this sounds like humorous way to deal with the problem, what about all of us silent users who just watch the list for news and generally ignore the bonus nonsense that makes the list...
We the silent would miss out on important news...
Clearly, this would apply to the POSTING not reading abilities.
AND, we would necessarily start out with "adult" posting abilities.
What needs development: 1: After some time, if my posts irritate you (or yours me) then we post to the centos-moderator@centos.org address (currently non-existent), with a message subject of KARMA PLUS or KARMA MINUS and a message body of a name; 2: said name has their Karma adjusted accordingly. 3: At some configurable threshold of negative Karma, my (or your) posting rights turn off and we become a moderated poster. 4: If there is no moderator, we're made mute. 5: Every week, the negative Karma scores have +1 added; making the moderated status temporary. 6: No poster can adjust the karma of another poster more than once per week.
It ain't a perfect specification, but it'd be an improvement on what we have.
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On 17.5.2011 20:21, Brunner, Brian T. wrote:
centos-bounces@centos.org wrote:
While this sounds like humorous way to deal with the problem, what about all of us silent users who just watch the list for news and generally ignore the bonus nonsense that makes the list...
We the silent would miss out on important news...
Clearly, this would apply to the POSTING not reading abilities.
AND, we would necessarily start out with "adult" posting abilities.
What needs development: 1: After some time, if my posts irritate you (or yours me) then we post to the centos-moderator@centos.org address (currently non-existent), with a message subject of KARMA PLUS or KARMA MINUS and a message body of a name; 2: said name has their Karma adjusted accordingly. 3: At some configurable threshold of negative Karma, my (or your) posting rights turn off and we become a moderated poster. 4: If there is no moderator, we're made mute. 5: Every week, the negative Karma scores have +1 added; making the moderated status temporary. 6: No poster can adjust the karma of another poster more than once per week.
It ain't a perfect specification, but it'd be an improvement on what we have.
I am mostly silent and I am not pleased about many things that were said, but this is too much. I have to raise my voice.
If I understand correctly the things some people say is annoying you, so you think about ways to censoring them. Quite a low level of tolerance and thats baddest karma.
Maybe some of you feel assaulted, maybe some of you feel annoyed. I think pretty much everyone get peeved by threads like this but likely for different reasons. So many notions, so many slanting views, and also so many self conceptions. And this is a good thing in my opinion. Do not kill the C(ommunity) in CentOS, please.
Yes the traffic to noise ratio has been quite low lately, some things are repeated over and over and this is annoying me too, but the Noise ratio is quite high with purely technical things too, IMO. People could read manuals, people could search archives, etc. But I am drifting, back on topic: Please stop thinking about moderating == censoring.
Christopher Chan wrote:
On Tuesday, May 17, 2011 05:50 PM, John Hodrien wrote:
On Tue, 17 May 2011, Christopher Chan wrote:
The Centos ML does quite well without a moderator imho. No need to go draconian like other projects/'communities'
I think a moderated mailing list around release time sounds like bliss to me.
Yeah...for you...think of the poor moderator!
HAHAHAHAHA, YUP!
Ljubomir
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Benjamin Smith -
Brunner, Brian T. -
Christopher Chan -
John Hodrien -
John R. Dennison -
Josh -
Ljubomir Ljubojevic -
Markus Falb -
Michael Simpson -
R - elists -
Radu Gheorghiu -
Ron Blizzard