Hiya everyone,
Is there a way to disable a thread that has degenerated into flaming? The recent "discussion" on /var/run descended into some quite nasty places and perhaps a lid should have been put on it. This seems to happen every few weeks and is somewhat embarrassing when I'm trying to persuade people of the "active and friendly Centos community"
It was a shame that no one actually read past the belligerence his original post enough to come up with a solution. It was quite clearly a problem with third party packages not coming with SELinux policies.
Cheers,
Andrew
On 10/10/2017 16:03, Andrew Holway wrote:
Hiya everyone,
Is there a way to disable a thread that has degenerated into flaming? The recent "discussion" on /var/run descended into some quite nasty places and perhaps a lid should have been put on it. This seems to happen every few weeks and is somewhat embarrassing when I'm trying to persuade people of the "active and friendly Centos community"
In Thunderbird, right click on a message in the thread, and click "Ignore Thread", for other mail user agents you can find a similar feature.
On 10/10/2017 11:03 AM, Andrew Holway wrote:
Hiya everyone,
Is there a way to disable a thread that has degenerated into flaming? The recent "discussion" on /var/run descended into some quite nasty places and perhaps a lid should have been put on it. This seems to happen every few weeks and is somewhat embarrassing when I'm trying to persuade people of the "active and friendly Centos community"
It was a shame that no one actually read past the belligerence his original post enough to come up with a solution. It was quite clearly a problem with third party packages not coming with SELinux policies.
Also just as clearly, everyone on the list said this wasn't standard CentOS practice, the third party repo/packages OP used was not built properly and to either find a package that did, or compile from source. At no point will anyone on this list try to fix a 'problem' by ignoring the 40+ years of UNIX design. Liability aside, if someone doesn't like what the majority say on the list, that's their problem. Trying to stick persistent data in /var/run isn't standard (or best) practice and, indeed, /var/run is literally designed to not be persistent. Any sane admin wouldn't countenance that, and most of us are sane, and experienced.
Let me ask, would you allow your kids to do something that was obviously dangerous? This is the same thing. We're here to guide those willing to learn the /best/ method of resolving problems. Some aren't willing to learn and refuse to believe the majority here know what we're talking about. The true answer to OPs question wasn't what he wanted to hear and continued ad nauseum to insist that's what he wants to do. Sometimes people just have to fail to learn.
Most of us make a living in IT, and get paid to do things within the parameters of the systems we manage. How hard is it to understand such a simple concept? What you insist on calling a flame war, was some of us, me included, trying to get people to understand that 1) OP is wrong trying to do it this way 2) that OPs package wasn't standard CentOS packaging and was dangerous to use on CentOS systems and 3) that there's no way any of us would offer a work around for something that will almost certainly result in lost data.
OP appeared, to me at least, to be quite immature in insisting going against how CentOS (and RHEL) is designed and would very likely have come back to the list raising hell over losing data and how it's our fault for his inability to listen to us. Don't you think that would have been a bigger blow to the 'active and friendly community' if we'd actually offered advice contrary to design/best practice? Would you take advice from someone you know has given dangerous advice in the past?
We have this discussion on every list I've ever been, or currently are on about every 6 months or so. I do my best to contribute to the list as often as I can, but I can't help people when they are deadset on doing dangerous things. Posts like his, and posts like yours make it harder for me to bother trying to help those unwilling to listen. I don't take it from my children, and I certainly won't from adults who won't listen.
On Tue, October 10, 2017 10:22 am, Mark Haney wrote:
On 10/10/2017 11:03 AM, Andrew Holway wrote:
Hiya everyone,
Is there a way to disable a thread that has degenerated into flaming? The recent "discussion" on /var/run descended into some quite nasty places and perhaps a lid should have been put on it. This seems to happen every few weeks and is somewhat embarrassing when I'm trying to persuade people of the "active and friendly Centos community"
It was a shame that no one actually read past the belligerence his original post enough to come up with a solution. It was quite clearly a problem with third party packages not coming with SELinux policies.
Also just as clearly, everyone on the list said this wasn't standard CentOS practice, the third party repo/packages OP used was not built properly and to either find a package that did, or compile from source. At no point will anyone on this list try to fix a 'problem' by ignoring the 40+ years of UNIX design. Liability aside, if someone doesn't like what the majority say on the list, that's their problem. Trying to stick persistent data in /var/run isn't standard (or best) practice and, indeed, /var/run is literally designed to not be persistent. Any sane admin wouldn't countenance that, and most of us are sane, and experienced.
Let me ask, would you allow your kids to do something that was obviously dangerous? This is the same thing. We're here to guide those willing to learn the /best/ method of resolving problems. Some aren't willing to learn and refuse to believe the majority here know what we're talking about. The true answer to OPs question wasn't what he wanted to hear and continued ad nauseum to insist that's what he wants to do. Sometimes people just have to fail to learn.
Most of us make a living in IT, and get paid to do things within the parameters of the systems we manage. How hard is it to understand such a simple concept? What you insist on calling a flame war, was some of us, me included, trying to get people to understand that 1) OP is wrong trying to do it this way 2) that OPs package wasn't standard CentOS packaging and was dangerous to use on CentOS systems and 3) that there's no way any of us would offer a work around for something that will almost certainly result in lost data.
OP appeared, to me at least, to be quite immature in insisting going against how CentOS (and RHEL) is designed and would very likely have come back to the list raising hell over losing data and how it's our fault for his inability to listen to us. Don't you think that would have been a bigger blow to the 'active and friendly community' if we'd actually offered advice contrary to design/best practice? Would you take advice from someone you know has given dangerous advice in the past?
We have this discussion on every list I've ever been, or currently are on about every 6 months or so. I do my best to contribute to the list as often as I can, but I can't help people when they are deadset on doing dangerous things. Posts like his, and posts like yours make it harder for me to bother trying to help those unwilling to listen. I don't take it from my children, and I certainly won't from adults who won't listen.
Thanks, Mark! Not only I agree with all you said, but these were the same points that I was seeing in this whole thread. The OP gave me the same feeling as I have when sometimes someone comes to me to fix their system, and when I start doing what I see necessary starts direct me what I should do next. Which brings these feelings: you already failed to fix it yourself, that is why you came to get me do that, now step back and observe how it is done...
Valeri
-- Mark Haney Network Engineer at NeoNova 919-460-3330 option 1 mark.haney@neonova.net www.neonova.net
CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
On 10/10/2017 11:22 AM, Mark Haney wrote:
We have this discussion on every list I've ever been, or currently are on about every 6 months or so. I do my best to contribute to the list as often as I can, but I can't help people when they are deadset on doing dangerous things. Posts like his, and posts like yours make it harder for me to bother trying to help those unwilling to listen. I don't take it from my children, and I certainly won't from adults who won't listen.
Hi Mark, been a while since I saw you last in Asheville.
The core issue in the /var/run thread is one of lack of civility. There is a civil way of calling someone to see their need for further thought and investigation; calling someone 'stupid' or 'an idiot' over something as small as /var/run directory persistence is, to my mind at least, its own brand of immaturity and will typically cause the person so being attacked to go on the defensive and harden their stance, and this is the textbook genesis of a flame.
I've been involved in Unix and related pursuits long enough to know that different people consider different things to be polite. And I've said my share of impolite things, especially back in the day when I had a Usenet leaf node over uucp and participated in news.admin and alt.flame, so I'm not being self-righteous here, just practical and realistic. I've been plonked before, and I've plonked before. (If anyone isn't familiar with the term 'plonk' it means to put in your killfile or ignore list, and there are a few people that have been on this list that I have killfiled in the past, several especially right around the releases of CentOS 5.6 and CentOS 6.0).
So, for the last several years, I have set a protocol for myself where, if words that would be considered uncivil by most people were present in my post, or if my wording became too much of an attack over the person, I simply don't send it. My wife and I have five children, so I'm more than a little familiar with a certain rabbit named Thumper and his famous adage "f you can't say something nice, don't say nothin' at all." Now, I don't agree with that adage as written, as I would rather use the word 'civil' instead of 'nice,' because 'civil' doesn't mean nice. Civil just means 'not nasty' even when you need to have 'Radical Candor.' But I reserve that sort of 'harsh civility' for my staff here when necessary, who get a much more civil tone than my children at home would, incidentally. But my staff aren't children. And the members of this list aren't my staff, and I will be civil to everyone on this list.
I'll drop a brief note about my opinion of /var/run later, so that anyone who wants to ignore that thread before I post can do so.
On 10/11/2017 02:44 PM, Lamar Owen wrote:
On 10/10/2017 11:22 AM, Mark Haney wrote:
We have this discussion on every list I've ever been, or currently are on about every 6 months or so. I do my best to contribute to the list as often as I can, but I can't help people when they are deadset on doing dangerous things. Posts like his, and posts like yours make it harder for me to bother trying to help those unwilling to listen. I don't take it from my children, and I certainly won't from adults who won't listen.
Hi Mark, been a while since I saw you last in Asheville.
Hey Lamar, long time no see. It's been a real long time actually, left ERC in late 2009 after 3 surgeries on my feet and couldn't walk enough to do anything useful (ended up having 2 more, an elbow rebuilt and just had surgery #7 to reconstruct a knee). We moved to Durham in 2013 and have been here since. Just got my last 2 daughters off to Virginia Tech this fall and it's empty nest time. I still don't know what to do with all my free time.
The core issue in the /var/run thread is one of lack of civility. There is a civil way of calling someone to see their need for further thought and investigation; calling someone 'stupid' or 'an idiot' over something as small as /var/run directory persistence is, to my mind at least, its own brand of immaturity and will typically cause the person so being attacked to go on the defensive and harden their stance, and this is the textbook genesis of a flame.
I do agree, to a point. Being Irish, my temper is always simmering, usually over ignorance or willful stupidity. But, sometimes you just have to be the bad guy when people are recalcitrant. Hence my stance in this thread. I honestly have no problem being the bad guy if I have to be. In this case, it was a situation where OP was already on the defensive after the first posts. My input was much later, and was civil, even if not completely polite. The fact remains trying slam that square peg into that round hole, despite repeated attempts to explain /why not to do it/ seems to me to be willfully stupid (or stubborn). I made my case in my replies that forcing this issue absolutely will result in lost data and few people who get paid to do this for a living will countenance such a thing. In a lot of ways, we view things from the perspective of our own jobs/environment/culture, putting ourselves in their position as it were. A lot of people join the list simply to get a question answered, a lot more hang out and help when they can. I think no one wants to see anyone put their data, or livelihood in jeopardy and certainly not with advice given by (other) professionals. Sometimes you just have to be the 'disappointed parent', and that's how I replied after a while. Right or wrong, I stand by it.
I've been involved in Unix and related pursuits long enough to know that different people consider different things to be polite. And I've said my share of impolite things, especially back in the day when I had a Usenet leaf node over uucp and participated in news.admin and alt.flame, so I'm not being self-righteous here, just practical and realistic. I've been plonked before, and I've plonked before. (If anyone isn't familiar with the term 'plonk' it means to put in your killfile or ignore list, and there are a few people that have been on this list that I have killfiled in the past, several especially right around the releases of CentOS 5.6 and CentOS 6.0).
Heh. I haven't seen that word in a long time. Plonk and netiquette are widely unused words these days.
So, for the last several years, I have set a protocol for myself where, if words that would be considered uncivil by most people were present in my post, or if my wording became too much of an attack over the person, I simply don't send it. My wife and I have five children, so I'm more than a little familiar with a certain rabbit named Thumper and his famous adage "f you can't say something nice, don't say nothin' at all." Now, I don't agree with that adage as written, as I would rather use the word 'civil' instead of 'nice,' because 'civil' doesn't mean nice. Civil just means 'not nasty' even when you need to have 'Radical Candor.' But I reserve that sort of 'harsh civility' for my staff here when necessary, who get a much more civil tone than my children at home would, incidentally. But my staff aren't children. And the members of this list aren't my staff, and I will be civil to everyone on this list.
I'll drop a brief note about my opinion of /var/run later, so that anyone who wants to ignore that thread before I post can do so.
I get it. I really do. And there were times I probably should have walked away from the entire thread. But, I want people to learn, and learn the right way (regardless of the multitude of 'right ways' in our line of work) and you just have to be very firm with those digging their heels in, if, for instance, they are in a position to do real harm, to data or otherwise.
Anyway, hope all is well with you and PARI. I need to get back down there with telescope sometime, the light pollution in RDU is just awful.
On 10/11/2017 04:05 PM, Mark Haney wrote:
On 10/11/2017 02:44 PM, Lamar Owen wrote:
Hi Mark, been a while since I saw you last in Asheville.
Hey Lamar, long time no see. ... [snip]
Yeah, too long. Come by and visit some time.
The core issue in the /var/run thread is one of lack of civility. ...
I do agree, to a point. Being Irish, my temper is always simmering, usually over ignorance or willful stupidity.
I'm Irish, too, and that's why I have to set the protocol for myself that I do, and many times I'll let a post sit in a compose window half the day before I cancel it (or send it, as the case may be). I've had to perform podondectomies too many times..... (surgical removal of foot from mouth.....) If you never put the foot in your mouth, you never have to remove it.
But, sometimes you just have to be the bad guy when people are recalcitrant. ... Right or wrong, I stand by it.
Ok, fair enough. And I wasn't singling you out by any means; since I actually know you personally I figured you wouldn't mind my using your post as the reply point.
I get it. I really do. And there were times I probably should have walked away from the entire thread. But, I want people to learn, and learn the right way (regardless of the multitude of 'right ways' in our line of work) and you just have to be very firm with those digging their heels in, if, for instance, they are in a position to do real harm, to data or otherwise.
People tend to dig in their heels when they're being dragged a direction they don't want to go.... But, again, I'm not by any means singling you out. Some people, as I have learned the hard way with my eldest two children, just have to learn things the hard way. I'll share my experience; but in the end some people have to lose data to understand why some things are they way they are. And I might be doing them a favor in the long run by letting them.
But maybe I'm just too fatigued these days. I just get tired of dragging anchors and pushing chains.
Anyway, hope all is well with you and PARI. I need to get back down there with telescope sometime, the light pollution in RDU is just awful.
Thanks; let me know when you come up and I'll show you around at some of things that have changed (like our Redstone rocket engine on display, and the ATS-6 satellite on loan from the Smithsonian). Just don't try to get any information right now from our website; it's down due to a double failure on our ISP's fiber ring; redundancy works great, until you get two trees 50 miles apart that decide to crash down on your fiber within two hours of each other, taking out connectivity in both directions. Give it a few hours.
Let's take any more replies off-list, though.
Am 10.10.2017 um 17:03 schrieb Andrew Holway andrew.holway@gmail.com:
Is there a way to disable a thread that has degenerated into flaming? The recent "discussion" on /var/run descended into some quite nasty places and perhaps a lid should have been put on it. This seems to happen every few weeks and is somewhat embarrassing when I'm trying to persuade people of the "active and friendly Centos community"
A community has always at least "17%" of unpleasant behaviour - thats natural! The other part is very "active and friendly". Everything else is not realistic. :-)
It was a shame that no one actually read past the belligerence his original post enough to come up with a solution. It was quite clearly a problem with third party packages not coming with SELinux policies.
-- LF
-
Andrew Holway -
Giles Coochey -
Lamar Owen -
Leon Fauster -
Mark Haney -
Valeri Galtsev