led to the great compiler we have today. The same would hold for any large project (the kernel, firefox, etc.)
And... are you happy with the quality of the huge $h1t which is Firefox? Because I am not.
As for the Linux kernel, they pushed in all kind of crap. Back in 1996, I was running Linux with X in only 8 Megs of RAM! Now, I doubt I could even boot with such a memory...
Linux is not like Jesus. Linux is not "good", nor "great". It's only "much less worse" than Windows, and marginally better than the BSDs. Of course, it's open source and so on. But it's a huge crap like everything that's software nowadays.
I fail to see why tens of micro repos are easier to maintain consistent than a large one.
They're not. But at least you don't have to make people get along.
7,600 packages is really too much for a couple of
people to
maintain. Unless it's scaled *down*...
...or scale the maintainers up.
Still, 7,600 is unmaintainable. For their ~20k packages, both Debian and Ubuntu use dozens and dozens of packages. (And I won't mention the quality of Ubuntu's packages.) As for TUV, they decided they can only support ~2.5k packages, regardless of the fact that they're the #1 Linux company.
I maintain that RF is way too large to be properly maintainable.
Cheers, R-F
__________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.
beranger5ca@yahoo.com... , u have a problem with dag...and now it looks like u have a problem with linus torvalds himself.... u talk abt the need for cooperation,etc.... but you apparently dont get that 'you have to give respect to get respect' & 'give cooperation to get cooperation'
relax bro.
----- Original Message ----
From: Radu-Cristian FOTESCU beranger5ca@yahoo.ca To: CentOS mailing list centos@centos.org Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 9:51:54 AM Subject: Re: [CentOS] Dag's comment at linuxtag
led to the great compiler we have today. The same would hold for any large project (the kernel, firefox, etc.)
And... are you happy with the quality of the huge $h1t which is Firefox? Because I am not.
As for the Linux kernel, they pushed in all kind of crap. Back in 1996, I was running Linux with X in only 8 Megs of RAM! Now, I doubt I could even boot with such a memory...
Linux is not like Jesus. Linux is not "good", nor "great". It's only "much less worse" than Windows, and marginally better than the BSDs. Of course, it's open source and so on. But it's a huge crap like everything that's software nowadays.
I fail to see why tens of micro repos are easier to maintain consistent than a large one.
They're not. But at least you don't have to make people get along.
7,600 packages is really too much for a couple of
people to
maintain. Unless it's scaled *down*...
...or scale the maintainers up.
Still, 7,600 is unmaintainable. For their ~20k packages, both Debian and Ubuntu use dozens and dozens of packages. (And I won't mention the quality of Ubuntu's packages.) As for TUV, they decided they can only support ~2.5k packages, regardless of the fact that they're the #1 Linux company.
I maintain that RF is way too large to be properly maintainable.
On Mon, 29 Jun 2009, Linux Advocate wrote:
beranger5ca@yahoo.com... , u have a problem with dag...and now it looks like u have a problem with linus torvalds himself.... u talk abt the need for cooperation,etc.... but you apparently dont get that 'you have to give respect to get respect' & 'give cooperation to get cooperation'
I don't have a problem with Radu-Cristian, I think it's great that he provides me some feedback.
He wants me to do some things for him for free (unfortunately I am a freelancer and not a millionaire).
I want him to help me fix those things for free.
So I guess we are both very alike, we want each other to fix those things for free :)
Dag Wieers wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jun 2009, Linux Advocate wrote:
beranger5ca@yahoo.com... , u have a problem with dag...and now it looks like u have a problem with linus torvalds himself.... u talk abt the need for cooperation,etc.... but you apparently dont get that 'you have to give respect to get respect' & 'give cooperation to get cooperation'
I don't have a problem with Radu-Cristian, I think it's great that he provides me some feedback.
He wants me to do some things for him for free (unfortunately I am a freelancer and not a millionaire).
I want him to help me fix those things for free.
So I guess we are both very alike, we want each other to fix those things for free :)
Dag - you have a really *great* way with words :)
Radu-Cristian FOTESCU a écrit :
(And I won't mention the quality of Ubuntu's packages.) As for TUV, they decided they can only support ~2.5k packages, regardless of the fact that they're the #1 Linux company.
How many employees does Canonical have? AFAIK, it all started with a group of 30 odd Debian developers.
Compare this with the russian ALT Linux distribution: 150 paid full time developers only to maintain the distro.
As for Red Hat, according to recent news, they're moving from 2.000 to approximately 2.800 employees.
Niki
Niki Kovacs napsal(a):
How many employees does Canonical have? AFAIK, it all started with a group of 30 odd Debian developers.
Compare this with the russian ALT Linux distribution: 150 paid full time developers only to maintain the distro.
As for Red Hat, according to recent news, they're moving from 2.000 to approximately 2.800 employees.
Niki
Niki, that's starting the flame. Compare to PLD linux... more than 10000 RPMs... Not more that unpaid 40 people involved, actively committing only about 5 people... Regards, David
David Hrbác a écrit :
Niki, that's starting the flame. Compare to PLD linux... more than 10000 RPMs...
Well, no flame intended. So let me just add this. I'm a happy RPMForge repo user. No other third-party repos. I've learned how to circumvent the odd quirks in the repo (like: how do I use VLC and Audacity at the same time). And if a package is not in RPMForge (which happens, but rarely), well, I grab the SRPM and build it myself. I also have a small repo, but only for private use, so replication is easy.
So let's get this straight: huge pat on the shoulder for Dag. Thanks for your great repo !
Niki
Niki Kovacs napsal(a):
Well, no flame intended. So let me just add this. I'm a happy RPMForge repo user. No other third-party repos. I've learned how to circumvent the odd quirks in the repo (like: how do I use VLC and Audacity at the same time). And if a package is not in RPMForge (which happens, but rarely), well, I grab the SRPM and build it myself. I also have a small repo, but only for private use, so replication is easy.
Niki, I'm at the very same point. Only rpmforge and my repos user. David
On Tue, 30 Jun 2009, David Hrbác( wrote:
Niki Kovacs napsal(a):
Well, no flame intended. So let me just add this. I'm a happy RPMForge repo user. No other third-party repos. I've learned how to circumvent the odd quirks in the repo (like: how do I use VLC and Audacity at the same time). And if a package is not in RPMForge (which happens, but rarely), well, I grab the SRPM and build it myself. I also have a small repo, but only for private use, so replication is easy.
Niki, I'm at the very same point. Only rpmforge and my repos user.
David,
I am happy to add you to the RPMforge subversion so you can maintain those things from within RPMforge if you like.
Maybe this discussion can induce some change in how we work or who we accept.
david, could u tell me how to build frm SRPMS. i m not good in this area and would like to improve.
----- Original Message ----
From: David Hrbác( hrbac.conf@seznam.cz To: CentOS mailing list centos@centos.org Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 5:52:37 PM Subject: Re: [CentOS] Dag's comment at linuxtag
Niki Kovacs napsal(a):
Well, no flame intended. So let me just add this. I'm a happy RPMForge repo user. No other third-party repos. I've learned how to circumvent the odd quirks in the repo (like: how do I use VLC and Audacity at the same time). And if a package is not in RPMForge (which happens, but rarely), well, I grab the SRPM and build it myself. I also have a small repo, but only for private use, so replication is easy.
Niki, I'm at the very same point. Only rpmforge and my repos user. David _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Linux Advocate napsal(a):
david, could u tell me how to build frm SRPMS. i m not good in this area and would like to improve.
As usual wiki is the good place to start from: http://wiki.centos.org/HowTos/RebuildSRPM
I personally use the Mock: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Projects/Mock https://fedorahosted.org/mock/
There is also the Koji project, but it's too big to start with: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Projects/Koji
Regards, David
Niki, could u tell me howto build frm SRPM? i am not good at this area and would like to learn this.
----- Original Message ----
From: Niki Kovacs contact@kikinovak.net To: CentOS mailing list centos@centos.org Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 5:11:54 PM Subject: Re: [CentOS] Dag's comment at linuxtag
David Hrbác a écrit :
Niki, that's starting the flame. Compare to PLD linux... more than 10000 RPMs...
Well, no flame intended. So let me just add this. I'm a happy RPMForge repo user. No other third-party repos. I've learned how to circumvent the odd quirks in the repo (like: how do I use VLC and Audacity at the same time). And if a package is not in RPMForge (which happens, but rarely), well, I grab the SRPM and build it myself. I also have a small repo, but only for private use, so replication is easy.
So let's get this straight: huge pat on the shoulder for Dag. Thanks for your great repo !
Niki _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 14:18, Linux Advocatelinuxhousedn@yahoo.com wrote:
could u tell me howto build frm SRPM? i am not good at this area and would like to learn this.
This article in the Wiki should get you going... http://wiki.centos.org/HowTos/RebuildSRPM
HTH, Filipe
On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 14:18, Linux Advocatewrote:
could u tell me howto build frm SRPM? i am not good at this area and would
like to learn this.
This article in the Wiki should get you going... http://wiki.centos.org/HowTos/RebuildSRPM
HTH, Filipe
thanx.
At Tue, 30 Jun 2009 11:18:58 -0700 (PDT) CentOS mailing list centos@centos.org wrote:
Niki, could u tell me howto build frm SRPM? i am not good at this area and would like to learn this.
Simple form (should work with most packages):
# rpmbuild --rebuild package-version-release.srpm
'man rpmbuild' for more details.
This assumes that the spec file does not need tinkering with. Generally you don't need to mess with the spec file if the SRPM is/was built for your distro.
----- Original Message ----
From: Niki Kovacs contact@kikinovak.net To: CentOS mailing list centos@centos.org Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 5:11:54 PM Subject: Re: [CentOS] Dag's comment at linuxtag
David Hrbác a écrit :
Niki, that's starting the flame. Compare to PLD linux... more than 10000 RPMs...
Well, no flame intended. So let me just add this. I'm a happy RPMForge repo user. No other third-party repos. I've learned how to circumvent the odd quirks in the repo (like: how do I use VLC and Audacity at the same time). And if a package is not in RPMForge (which happens, but rarely), well, I grab the SRPM and build it myself. I also have a small repo, but only for private use, so replication is easy.
So let's get this straight: huge pat on the shoulder for Dag. Thanks for your great repo !
Niki _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
great. thanx.
----- Original Message ----
From: Robert Heller heller@deepsoft.com could u tell me howto build frm SRPM? i am not good at this area and would like to learn this.
Simple form (should work with most packages):
# rpmbuild --rebuild package-version-release.srpm
'man rpmbuild' for more details.
This assumes that the spec file does not need tinkering with. Generally you don't need to mess with the spec file if the SRPM is/was built for your distro.
On 06/30/2009 09:22 AM, David Hrbác( wrote:
that's starting the flame. Compare to PLD linux... more than 10000 RPMs... Not more that unpaid 40 people involved, actively committing only about 5 people...
I have much respect for the PLD guys, they have a fantastic system in place, and I think its spot on - spend the resources initially to get the process and systems right, then work on making life easy for the packagers, and see the people you can attract in.
- KB
On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 06:51:54PM -0700, Radu-Cristian FOTESCU wrote:
led to the great compiler we have today. The same would hold for any large project (the kernel, firefox, etc.)
And... are you happy with the quality of the huge $h1t which is Firefox? Because I am not.
Firefox was better than Mozilla. Epiphany is less bloated than Firefox. It's definitely worth noting that, Epiphany & Firefox popped up so quickly because they built on Mozilla's rendering, etc.
That's the powerful FLOS idea: get inspired and build upon previous work to suit current needs. The other very important ingredient is people putting efforts in common projects *and* even more people using the projects and giving *constructive* feedback.
As for the Linux kernel, they pushed in all kind of crap. Back in 1996, I was running Linux with X in only 8 Megs of RAM! Now, I doubt I could even boot with such a memory...
Things get pushed in the kernel, Xorg, etc. for a good reason, even if we fail to see it.
The 2.6 kernels boot and run just fine in maybe as few as 1Mb in embedded systems and brings features and performance the 1996 version simply lacked. That's a flexibility you don't find easily elsewhere, not to mention you get it for free.
Besides, the HW is getting cheaper and more efficient fast. I started programming on a 1MHz 8 bit system with 64kb of RAM, shared with the BIOS and the OS (maybe half of it left for the applications). Nowadays even a mouse driver may need much more memory.
I write this email on a HW that was in the supercomputer range 10 years ago or so. But I don't know of people that double their "SW developing efficiency" every 18 months as Moore law goes for the HW. That's why I value so much the creative efforts pushing forward all kinds of features, whether I need them or not. These efforts give me an environment that helps my productivity and stimulate my creativity like nothing else.
I fail to see why tens of micro repos are easier to maintain consistent than a large one.
They're not. But at least you don't have to make people get along.
And you get a source nightmare of packages that do not get along, too. This system may produce daily problems that are multiplied by tens of thousand of end users, each of them having to spend time fixing them themselves. That's a huge value trash, in my view.
I was using Dag's repo since the RH7 days. Along the years I explored alternatives as ATrpms, livna, etc. but I was always very glad to come back to the richness and stability of Dag, Matthias, Dries repos. For me they made a huge and wonderful job of putting up so much sheer value with so few resources. But things change and it's a pity to see it eroded by narrow choices, regardless of the efforts still thrown at it.
7,600 packages is really too much for a couple of
people to
maintain. Unless it's scaled *down*...
...or scale the maintainers up.
Still, 7,600 is unmaintainable. For their ~20k packages, both Debian and Ubuntu use dozens and dozens of packages. (And I won't mention the quality of Ubuntu's packages.) As for TUV, they decided they can only support ~2.5k packages, regardless of the fact that they're the #1 Linux company.
I maintain that RF is way too large to be properly maintainable.
Well, you just said a few lines up that enough maintainers are proven to keep up even 3x this size. Not to mention the (PLD, I think) examples someone else brought in the thread.
I see this whole issue as a matter of perceiving the real value of a well maintained and vast repo. Once that is well perceived, the effort required definitely looks a lot more worth it.
Mihai
-
Dag Wieers -
David Hrbác( -
Filipe Brandenburger -
Karanbir Singh -
Linux Advocate -
Mihai T. Lazarescu -
Ned Slider -
Niki Kovacs -
Radu-Cristian FOTESCU -
Robert Heller