Could we have a centos-offtopic list please, so anything that would be considered OT can be posted there?
That way it would keep anything considered as OT and list-noise off the main centos specific list.
So each users then has the option of being on the main centos list, and/or the centos-offtopic list as well.
That would keep the more experienced centos users happy, and allow us less experienced centos users to also learn from each other as well.
I for one like to learn from such posts as the [CentOS] OT: Hardware upgrade help, as 64 bit is something I'm interested in learning about from other centos users that wish to contribute to threads like these.
I think the centos-offtopic list should also be centos related, but not so strict postings as the current list is.
Kind Regards,
Keith Roberts
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--On Thursday, August 25, 2011 12:00 PM +0100 Keith Roberts keith@karsites.net wrote:
I think the centos-offtopic list should also be centos related, but not so strict postings as the current list is.
Perhaps a better split would be centos-tech for "on topic" stuff specifically about the OS and its packages, and something like centos-misc for everything else. And perhaps a centos-advocacy for stuff like the griping (whether justified or not) of the last few months, and for talking about rival distros. (This mirrors the way the comp.os.linux newsgroups are split.)
I consider the hardware threads on-topic insofar as they're about system requirements for running the OS. Getting hardware to work with Linux has always been an important issue.
On Thu, 25 Aug 2011, Kenneth Porter wrote:
To: CentOS mailing list centos@centos.org From: Kenneth Porter shiva@sewingwitch.com Subject: Re: [CentOS] Off topic list for centos please?
--On Thursday, August 25, 2011 12:00 PM +0100 Keith Roberts keith@karsites.net wrote:
I think the centos-offtopic list should also be centos related, but not so strict postings as the current list is.
Perhaps a better split would be centos-tech for "on topic" stuff specifically about the OS and its packages, and something like centos-misc for everything else. And perhaps a centos-advocacy for stuff like the griping (whether justified or not) of the last few months, and for talking about rival distros. (This mirrors the way the comp.os.linux newsgroups are split.)
That sounds like a good idea to me Ken.
Keith
I consider the hardware threads on-topic insofar as they're about system requirements for running the OS. Getting hardware to work with Linux has always been an important issue. _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
On Thu, 25 Aug 2011, Kenneth Porter wrote:
I think the centos-offtopic list should also be centos related, but not so strict postings as the current list is.
yeah -- just like there is presently any self control being shown by certain serial offenders here. We could set it up, but the people who need to use it wont't
Perhaps a better split would be centos-tech for "on topic" stuff
you know ... if the inmates were running the asylum, that would be a SUPER idea
This list has turned into such a high noise, low signal (but OPEN, DEMOCRATIC, and FREE SPEECH) cesspool that it has succeeded in driving away substantially all posters bringing content of tchnical merit here
tragedy of the commons, I guess
-- Russ herrold
On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 11:46 AM, R P Herrold herrold@owlriver.com wrote:
This list has turned into such a high noise, low signal (but OPEN, DEMOCRATIC, and FREE SPEECH) cesspool that it has succeeded in driving away substantially all posters bringing content of tchnical merit here
How much technical merit can there be on the topic of how Centos differs from RHEL (which is the only thing really specific to CentOS)? And if anything drove posters away from here it was certain people telling them their input wasn't wanted.
On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 10:37 AM, Lamar Owen lowen@pari.edu wrote:
On Thursday, August 25, 2011 12:53:20 PM Les Mikesell wrote:
And if anything drove posters away from here it was certain people telling them their input wasn't wanted.
Or correcting them in miniscule details and arguing about it ad nauseum.
Nothing is wrong with getting details right - telling people to go away is something else. And if there is _one_ thing that should be on topic and of utmost interest for CentOS users, it should be _when_ a version or update is going to be available. Practically everything else is about upstream or the tiny differences.
On 08/25/11 9:46 AM, R P Herrold wrote:
yeah -- just like there is presently any self control being shown by certain serial offenders here. We could set it up, but the people who need to use it wont't
sadly, we'd see the same crap cross-posted to all those lists....
On Thursday 25 Aug 2011 John R Pierce wrote:
On 08/25/11 9:46 AM, R P Herrold wrote:
yeah -- just like there is presently any self control being shown by certain serial offenders here. We could set it up, but the people who need to use it wont't
sadly, we'd see the same crap cross-posted to all those lists....
I read many lists, and I've seen more crap in this single thread than in all the other lists put together. Most of it comes from the self-righteous.
Anne
On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 12:53 PM, Karanbir Singh mail-lists@karan.org wrote:
On 08/25/2011 11:00 AM, Keith Roberts wrote:
Could we have a centos-offtopic list please, so anything that would be considered OT can be posted there?
an offtopic list would need to come with a lot more moderation here then.
- KB
areed, and the OT list would probably abused so much that it may be closed altogether.
My suggestion: Why not use mailman topics feature for this, and then the guys who feel everything where the word CentOS isn't exclusively mentioned is OT, can un-subscribe from those topics?
--On Thursday, August 25, 2011 12:53 PM +0100 Karanbir Singh mail-lists@karan.org wrote:
an offtopic list would need to come with a lot more moderation here then.
Are the -devel and -docs lists moderated?
A reason I suggest -tech is that it's usually fairly clear when a question isn't technical but either social or political (eg. advocacy).
OTOH, I don't think the technical traffic is high enough to warrant separate software and hardware lists (as would be the case with the generic Linux newsgroups).
On 08/25/2011 12:30 PM, Kenneth Porter wrote:
an offtopic list would need to come with a lot more moderation here then.
Are the -devel and -docs lists moderated?
I didnt imply holding postings back for moderation - but more along the lines of creating an identity for the list, and asking people to shift conversations to better suite the audience on there. And in those ways the -devel and -docs list are much more focused than the generic list here.
A reason I suggest -tech is that it's usually fairly clear when a question isn't technical but either social or political (eg. advocacy).
OTOH, I don't think the technical traffic is high enough to warrant separate software and hardware lists (as would be the case with the generic Linux newsgroups).
A large part of the value of this list comes from the varied and diverse membership. However, the main focus is still about CentOS itself. I try and keep up, but often fall behind reading this list - but it does look like a lot more people would rather see the hostility and arrogance on this list go away, rather than split the membership up into smaller groups.
An example worth looking at and considering is the centos-virt list. Quite a few people here are members there as well, and yet continue to post to this list about their virt specific issues.
The other issue that we have, which many other lists dont - is that the membership churn is quite high. And without exception, we fail quite comprehensively as a group to capitalise on that. What should be an amazing opportunity for us to bring in, nurture and hold onto content and tech specific talent - is repeatedly driven away, marginalised and put down.
Yes we have the people using this list repeatedly without contributing back, yes we have people on the list here who will, even after being pointed out, fail to adhere to list etiquette and we have people on there who will still stick in and try to help others through the noise. And yes we do have people who will rant on and on about things with dubious relevance, while they will still turn around and make very good relevant points some times. But guess what, we have all kinds of people on this list - even the occasional spammer.
One thing we definitely have in abundance is opinion on how this list should be run, whats OT and whats not and how people should go about starting to get help with issues they come up against. Since not everyone here would have a wiki.centos.org account, I've started a typewith.me page at http://typewith.me/B3hEsCAx97 ; how about everyone come together and thrash out a list policy, with guidelines and helpful content that might even become holding content at wiki.centos.org/GettingHelp and wiki.centos.org/EngageCommunity
Thoughts about this, put it here on the list. Thoughts ON the content, put them in the typewith.me page. If you have a wiki account, please use the login name there for your ID on the typewith.me page.
- KB
On Sun, 2011-08-28 at 13:58 +0100, Karanbir Singh wrote:
The other issue that we have, which many other lists dont - is that the membership churn is quite high. And without exception, we fail quite comprehensively as a group to capitalise on that. W
Please explain how, or why, the group should 'capitalise' on membership churn ? Churn, what the English once called 'turnover', means people departing. How could departees be 'capitalised on' ? Given a free 'I Love Centos' sticker as a memento ?
I favour publicising Centos more. It really is a brilliant product created and maintained by a tiny few who are mainly unknown to the vast quantity of world users.
I suggest an annual week long Centos event on every continent. For Europe, perhaps in sunny Belgium. To make it affordable for all it could be camping rather than expensive hotels and held in June, July or August.
On 08/28/2011 02:12 PM, Always Learning wrote:
The other issue that we have, which many other lists dont - is that the membership churn is quite high. And without exception, we fail quite comprehensively as a group to capitalise on that. W
Please explain how, or why, the group should 'capitalise' on membership churn ? Churn, what the English once called 'turnover', means people departing. How could departees be 'capitalised on' ? Given a free 'I Love Centos' sticker as a memento ?
ok, to me Churn implies people joining and leaving, turnover is high. We do have lots of people joining, but we have a lot of people leaving due to the various reasons, its that we should address. We have the benefit of lots of people coming in, lets capitalise on that to expand the user base, the knowledge base and the general community at large. Rather than fail in the way we do by driving away large numbers.
I suggest an annual week long Centos event on every continent. For Europe, perhaps in sunny Belgium. To make it affordable for all it could be camping rather than expensive hotels and held in June, July or August.
heh, I've been to belgium 8 times in the last 5 years. Its never failed to rain on me ( even snow one in a while ). A CentOS Conference would be nice, its been brought up often. If you want to help make it happen - come join the centos-promo list and lets see if we can do something.
- KB
On Sun, 2011-08-28 at 14:39 +0100, Karanbir Singh wrote:
heh, I've been to belgium 8 times in the last 5 years. Its never failed to rain on me ( even snow one in a while ). A CentOS Conference would be nice, its been brought up often. If you want to help make it happen - come join the centos-promo list and lets see if we can do something.
You, purposely ?, omitted the time of the year when it rained :-) Snow is unlikely in June, July and August in the northern hemisphere.
Yes, let us make it happen in 2012 when the streets of London are grid-locked (that's American for jammed) with Olympic traffic and parts of London grind to a halt. A welcome and refreshing break, good weather, stimulating thoughts and learning and discovering new things plus the tasty Belgium chips (USA = fries) and beer.
Promo here I come or should that be in Belgium Dutch (Flemish)
Ik ben op de weg naar Promo, bijna.
On Sunday, August 28, 2011 09:59 PM, Always Learning wrote:
On Sun, 2011-08-28 at 14:39 +0100, Karanbir Singh wrote:
heh, I've been to belgium 8 times in the last 5 years. Its never failed to rain on me ( even snow one in a while ). A CentOS Conference would be nice, its been brought up often. If you want to help make it happen - come join the centos-promo list and lets see if we can do something.
You, purposely ?, omitted the time of the year when it rained :-) Snow is unlikely in June, July and August in the northern hemisphere.
Maybe he meant hail :p
On Sun, 28 Aug 2011, Karanbir Singh wrote:
To: CentOS mailing list centos@centos.org From: Karanbir Singh mail-lists@karan.org Subject: Re: [CentOS] Off topic list for centos please?
On 08/28/2011 02:12 PM, Always Learning wrote:
The other issue that we have, which many other lists dont - is that the membership churn is quite high. And without exception, we fail quite comprehensively as a group to capitalise on that. W
Please explain how, or why, the group should 'capitalise' on membership churn ? Churn, what the English once called 'turnover', means people departing. How could departees be 'capitalised on' ? Given a free 'I Love Centos' sticker as a memento ?
ok, to me Churn implies people joining and leaving, turnover is high. We do have lots of people joining, but we have a lot of people leaving due to the various reasons, its that we should address. We have the benefit of lots of people coming in, lets capitalise on that to expand the user base, the knowledge base and the general community at large. Rather than fail in the way we do by driving away large numbers.
Well I've been on *many* mailing lists, and there's no way I could keep on them all at the same time :(
Apache, MySQL, SQLite, PHP install, Alpine, plus others. So my reasons to unsub from the list, would be to reduce the number of mails coming to my inbox each day. A classic example would be if I was moving house - get off as many lists as possible to reduce the backlog of emails for me to wade through after the move.
Kind Regards,
Keith Roberts
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On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 7:58 AM, Karanbir Singh mail-lists@karan.org wrote:
I didnt imply holding postings back for moderation - but more along the lines of creating an identity for the list, and asking people to shift conversations to better suite the audience on there. And in those ways the -devel and -docs list are much more focused than the generic list here.
I think the missing piece is something like an EL-admin list. That is, one where people could discuss things that are common issues on distributions based on RHEL and with access to the same set of 3rd party package repositories. That's not exactly Centos-specific, but Centos users are probably the largest single collection with the most experience, so the questions come up here - and sometimes it isn't obvious at the start whether the problem relates to the distribution packaging or an application.
The usual advice here for application-related issues is to go to the application's own list, but there the first and sometimes only response you will get is to 'upgrade to current' before discussing any problems. And that is seldom the right advice for EL-type distro users. Plus, there are often several different applications that can be used for any purpose and choosing the right one based on others' experiences should be the first step.
In any case, whether it should be managed by the Centos group or not, users need a list where those questions aren't met with hostility and the most likely response is a pointer to an appropriate packaged application version (since most common problems have already been solved somewhere).
I start with the view that the policy restrictions that make 3rd party package repositories necessary and not referenced in the base distro _are_ a Centos problem, even if inherited from upstream, so discussing the workarounds here should be on topic, even if not Centos-specific.
Greetings,
On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 9:59 PM, Les Mikesell lesmikesell@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 7:58 AM, Karanbir Singh mail-lists@karan.org wrote:
I didnt imply holding postings back for moderation
I start with the view that the policy restrictions that make 3rd party package repositories necessary and not referenced in the base distro _are_ a Centos problem, even if inherited from upstream, so discussing the workarounds here should be on topic, even if not Centos-specific.
-- Les Mikesell lesmikesell@gmail.com _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
+1
Though I have not not contributed to this lisy much, This is the primary email-ID where people learn I direct to most people in intent to become RH* certified.
It has helped them much.
So be it.
Long live centos at centos.org
On Thursday, August 25, 2011 06:53:35 AM Karanbir Singh wrote:
On 08/25/2011 11:00 AM, Keith Roberts wrote:
Could we have a centos-offtopic list please, so anything that would be considered OT can be posted there?
an offtopic list would need to come with a lot more moderation here then.
Agreed.
I'd suggest calling the list 'centos-social' after the IRC channel, with similar protocol for using it versus the main centos list. Makes things consistent, too, since then regardless of whether it's on IRC or e-mail the moderation can be 'take it to -social' across the board.
But there will always be those who will push the limit... simply because that's human nature.
On Aug 25, 2011, at 6:53 AM, Karanbir Singh mail-lists@karan.org wrote:
On 08/25/2011 11:00 AM, Keith Roberts wrote:
Could we have a centos-offtopic list please, so anything that would be considered OT can be posted there?
an offtopic list would need to come with a lot more moderation here then.
How about specific on-topic lists, such as:
centos.storage centos.deploy centos.manage centos.gui . .
It would be dead simple then to know what is and is not on/off topic.
-Ross
On Thu, 2011-08-25 at 10:34 -0400, Ross Walker wrote:
How about specific on-topic lists, such as:
centos.storage centos.deploy centos.manage centos.gui
If subscribing to a few, but not all, one could miss really interesting and informative, although unexpected, information in one of the others.
If someone wrote about storage and also mentioned 'gui' that person, according to your suggestion, should post to two lists and if they explained, at the same time, how they deployed it, 3 lists instead of one ? This inevitably means readers could seem multiple postings, although in different lists, for the same topic and if responding should they post 2 or 3 identical replies - one to each list containing the posting ?
Your idea could be modified to including on the subject line a one-word prefix for the topic. For example 'Storage: ......'
I concur with the others who thought OT traffic should be marked 'OT' on the subject line and filtered out. Meanwhile retaining one Centos Users list.
On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 04:32:10PM +0100, Always Learning wrote:
On Thu, 2011-08-25 at 10:34 -0400, Ross Walker wrote:
I have noticed that in other areas where I am subscribed to a tech list of this nature and where there are multiple lists supposedly to separate topics, it doesn't work very well. One of the lists tends to become dominant and people just post there, occasionally cross-posting to one of the others.
So, one list becomes general purpose and the others become mostly ignored. The result is a lot more people complaining about OT posts and arguing about where things should be posted - thus increasing the OT traffic.
So, if people will just be a little less quick to complain about OT posts, this list would see an actual reduction in OT posts.
////jerry
How about specific on-topic lists, such as:
centos.storage centos.deploy centos.manage centos.gui
If subscribing to a few, but not all, one could miss really interesting and informative, although unexpected, information in one of the others.
If someone wrote about storage and also mentioned 'gui' that person, according to your suggestion, should post to two lists and if they explained, at the same time, how they deployed it, 3 lists instead of one ? This inevitably means readers could seem multiple postings, although in different lists, for the same topic and if responding should they post 2 or 3 identical replies - one to each list containing the posting ?
Your idea could be modified to including on the subject line a one-word prefix for the topic. For example 'Storage: ......'
I concur with the others who thought OT traffic should be marked 'OT' on the subject line and filtered out. Meanwhile retaining one Centos Users list.
-- With best regards,
Paul. England, EU.
CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Keith Roberts wrote:
Could we have a centos-offtopic list please, so anything that would be considered OT can be posted there?
I don't think that is necessary; this newsgroup does not seem to me to be over-loaded with OT material, or indeed with material of any kind. Splitting it would just be a nuisance, in my case at least.
Surely it is easy enough to avoid reading an article labelled OT?
On 08/25/2011 08:47 AM Timothy Murphy wrote:
I don't think that is necessary; this newsgroup does not seem to me to be over-loaded with OT material, or indeed with material of any kind. Splitting it would just be a nuisance, in my case at least.
Surely it is easy enough to avoid reading an article labelled OT?
I agree. There isn't that much OT stuff here in the first place. And it's really not that hard to hit the delete key if you don't want to see it.
If there's going to be an OT list, why not also have a list for Stuff That Doesn't Answer the OP's Question and another for Discussions Gone Off on an Irrelevant Tangent... and another list: Threads I'm Not Interested In.
:)
On 08/25/2011 09:18 AM, ken wrote:
On 08/25/2011 08:47 AM Timothy Murphy wrote:
I don't think that is necessary; this newsgroup does not seem to me to be over-loaded with OT material, or indeed with material of any kind. Splitting it would just be a nuisance, in my case at least.
Surely it is easy enough to avoid reading an article labelled OT?
I agree. There isn't that much OT stuff here in the first place. And it's really not that hard to hit the delete key if you don't want to see it.
If there's going to be an OT list, why not also have a list for Stuff That Doesn't Answer the OP's Question and another for Discussions Gone Off on an Irrelevant Tangent... and another list: Threads I'm Not Interested In.
:)
I agree.
I use Thunderbird and all I do is press 't' and it marks the thread read and goes the next thread.
From: Timothy Murphy gayleard@eircom.net
Keith Roberts wrote:
Could we have a centos-offtopic list please, so anything that would be considered OT can be posted there?
I don't think that is necessary; this newsgroup does not seem to me to be over-loaded with OT material, or indeed with material of any kind. Splitting it would just be a nuisance, in my case at least.
Surely it is easy enough to avoid reading an article labelled OT?
Those who want to never see these OT posts could just create a simple mail filter in their mail client to automatically trash "* OT *" mails...
JD
On Thursday 25 Aug 2011 John Doe wrote:
From: Timothy Murphy gayleard@eircom.net
Keith Roberts wrote:
Could we have a centos-offtopic list please, so anything that would be considered OT can be posted there?
I don't think that is necessary; this newsgroup does not seem to me to be over-loaded with OT material, or indeed with material of any kind. Splitting it would just be a nuisance, in my case at least.
Surely it is easy enough to avoid reading an article labelled OT?
Those who want to never see these OT posts could just create a simple mail filter in their mail client to automatically trash "* OT *" mails...
How do you set a filter for "bike-shedding" :-D
Anne
Anne Wilson wrote:
On Thursday 25 Aug 2011 John Doe wrote:
From: Timothy Murphy gayleard@eircom.net
Keith Roberts wrote:
Could we have a centos-offtopic list please, so anything that would be considered OT can be posted there?
<snip>
Those who want to never see these OT posts could just create a simple mail filter in their mail client to automatically trash "* OT *" mails...
How do you set a filter for "bike-shedding" :-D
You've got a bike shed that runs linux? I'd like to see that....
mark
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Christopher Chan -
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John Doe -
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Karanbir Singh -
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ken -
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Timothy Murphy