All,
(and please do not turn this into the next long thread)
We have a small team which volunteers their time to create the CentOS releases. They are pounded right now with getting that done... it is as simple as that. Each of us 'chose' to use CentOS and with that choice comes nothing more.
Why are we complaining? To me, it is all very self-centered. Basically we're all complaining because we 'want' something. And yes, I'm on edge wanting something as well... but that is life with RedHat in general.
Some of the suggestions made:
1. Send money. OK, so using a very loose or reapplied definition of a word... we want to 'prostitute' the CentOS team. In other words, if we send money we have the 'right' to gripe and press for rapid releases? Demand services?
2. Add more staff. As a small business owner, the very last thing you want to do is add more staff when you are in a slammed state. It takes all of the 'productive' workers time to train the new staff and output slows to a crawl.
3. Make any other number of 'helpful' suggestions. Well, I think by now the CentOS team knows better than us how this needs to be done based on infrastructure and team members. And even if they aren't doing it right, we don't get to make demands that it be done differently as this is how they have decided to do it. Remember, you chose CentOS based on how they operate. You can go away if you like.
4. Bringing up other distros that are ahead of CentOS. This just an attempt at indirect pressure on the CentOS team to get a competition going. Only the team gets to choose their competition. CentOS 'rates' how it rates and that is up to the CentOS team and their decisions. Some cheerleading might be welcomed, as long as it doesn't become an "I cheer for you therefore you owe me".
5. MOST IMPORTANT---- discussing this right now is the wrong time. The CentOS team needs to be focused on the builds. They need to 'feel good'. They do not need these distractions, complaints, suggestions, pressures and generally negative comments at this moment in time. If it really bothers you, save it for later and bring it up when things are back to normal loads. Perhaps some good will come out of it, but not now. I know that most mean well, but look inside of yourself and the rush is about something you want... and YOU chose a FREE distro, which just so happens to convert to the paid version very easily.
6,7,8,9 and 10 (fill in your own but keep them to yourself)
If I were a member of the CentOS team right now, I'd likely be looking at the door. I positively would be needing to step back and take some time to myself to try to cool off and feel positive about what I'm doing. To me and from what I have heard from the CentOS team, very little of what is being said on the list is helping but instead is counterproductive at the moment. Obviously the team is 'reading' the list and 'obviously' some of us have pushed them further at a very high stress time, than they have ever been pushed before.
You may also note that upstream was also 'very late' with these new releases. Could it be we are discovering why? (please don't try to answer that)
Please please please... ease up, give them the time they need. Make notes for future conversations, but quit distracting them and making them feel bad. Or, write your scathing reply to a thread... get really down angry and in the dirt... then when you're done, just delete it.
CentOS team,
I do have just one suggestion (and I have no rights to ask this). It seems that the list goes quiet and waits for a while and then explodes a few days/weeks/months later with this banter. If you would consider a public release to this list, perhaps once per week during major releases with just some tidbit of how things are going, perhaps these threads wouldn't explode. With that would be the need for it to be an announcement or something that does not allow it to become a drawn out thread with hoards of perceived 'helpful' suggestions. I can't blame you for not doing this prior, as I'm sure it will fuel fires such as the one raging at the moment. Is there a way this could be done with a 'no-reply' setting or something?
With Much Appreciation, John Hinton
John Hinton wrote:
All,
(and please do not turn this into the next long thread)
<snip>
I am not a man of many words.. and i am usually very quiet on this list. But would just like to say that i appreciate all the CentOS team members immensely. I sincerely thank you all for the time you put in to what i consider the best free Linux distro available.
John Hinton wrote:
All,
(and please do not turn this into the next long thread)
<snip>
I am not a man of many words.. and i am usually very quiet on this list. But would just like to say that i appreciate all the CentOS team members immensely. I sincerely thank you all for the time you put in to what i consider the best free Linux distro available.
+1
On Mon, 2011-02-21 at 13:34 -0500, Corey A Johnson wrote:
I am not a man of many words.. and i am usually very quiet on this list. But would just like to say that i appreciate all the CentOS team members immensely. I sincerely thank you all for the time you put in to what i consider the best free Linux distro available.
Hear, hear.
With best regards,
Paul. England, EU.
Corey A Johnson wrote:
John Hinton wrote:
All,
(and please do not turn this into the next long thread)
<snip>
I am not a man of many words.. and i am usually very quiet on this list. But would just like to say that i appreciate all the CentOS team members immensely. I sincerely thank you all for the time you put in to what i consider the best free Linux distro available.
+10
On 02/21/2011 01:21 PM, John Hinton wrote:
All,
(and please do not turn this into the next long thread)
We have a small team which volunteers their time to create the CentOS releases. They are pounded right now with getting that done... it is as simple as that. Each of us 'chose' to use CentOS and with that choice comes nothing more.
Why are we complaining? To me, it is all very self-centered. Basically we're all complaining because we 'want' something. And yes, I'm on edge wanting something as well... but that is life with RedHat in general.
Some of the suggestions made:
- Send money. OK, so using a very loose or reapplied definition of a
word... we want to 'prostitute' the CentOS team. In other words, if we send money we have the 'right' to gripe and press for rapid releases? Demand services?
- Add more staff. As a small business owner, the very last thing you
want to do is add more staff when you are in a slammed state. It takes all of the 'productive' workers time to train the new staff and output slows to a crawl.
- Make any other number of 'helpful' suggestions. Well, I think by now
the CentOS team knows better than us how this needs to be done based on infrastructure and team members. And even if they aren't doing it right, we don't get to make demands that it be done differently as this is how they have decided to do it. Remember, you chose CentOS based on how they operate. You can go away if you like.
- Bringing up other distros that are ahead of CentOS. This just an
attempt at indirect pressure on the CentOS team to get a competition going. Only the team gets to choose their competition. CentOS 'rates' how it rates and that is up to the CentOS team and their decisions. Some cheerleading might be welcomed, as long as it doesn't become an "I cheer for you therefore you owe me".
- MOST IMPORTANT---- discussing this right now is the wrong time. The
CentOS team needs to be focused on the builds. They need to 'feel good'. They do not need these distractions, complaints, suggestions, pressures and generally negative comments at this moment in time. If it really bothers you, save it for later and bring it up when things are back to normal loads. Perhaps some good will come out of it, but not now. I know that most mean well, but look inside of yourself and the rush is about something you want... and YOU chose a FREE distro, which just so happens to convert to the paid version very easily.
6,7,8,9 and 10 (fill in your own but keep them to yourself)
If I were a member of the CentOS team right now, I'd likely be looking at the door. I positively would be needing to step back and take some time to myself to try to cool off and feel positive about what I'm doing. To me and from what I have heard from the CentOS team, very little of what is being said on the list is helping but instead is counterproductive at the moment. Obviously the team is 'reading' the list and 'obviously' some of us have pushed them further at a very high stress time, than they have ever been pushed before.
You may also note that upstream was also 'very late' with these new releases. Could it be we are discovering why? (please don't try to answer that)
Please please please... ease up, give them the time they need. Make notes for future conversations, but quit distracting them and making them feel bad. Or, write your scathing reply to a thread... get really down angry and in the dirt... then when you're done, just delete it.
CentOS team,
I do have just one suggestion (and I have no rights to ask this). It seems that the list goes quiet and waits for a while and then explodes a few days/weeks/months later with this banter. If you would consider a public release to this list, perhaps once per week during major releases with just some tidbit of how things are going, perhaps these threads wouldn't explode. With that would be the need for it to be an announcement or something that does not allow it to become a drawn out thread with hoards of perceived 'helpful' suggestions. I can't blame you for not doing this prior, as I'm sure it will fuel fires such as the one raging at the moment. Is there a way this could be done with a 'no-reply' setting or something?
With Much Appreciation, John Hinton
It took me this long to catch the joke in the subject. :)
I'll pipe in to say "thanks!" for the CentOS team's work. I wish I was in a position to assist myself. However, and I know this came up before, if the CentOS team could setup a proper parent company (a not for profit would be sufficient) then donations from corporate entities would be much easier.
I understand that difficulties of hiring new blood, but certainly more (powerful) development machines and the like might help. :)
- Add more staff. As a small business owner, the very last thing you
want to do is add more staff when you are in a slammed state. It takes all of the 'productive' workers time to train the new staff and output slows to a crawl.
.....................................................
- MOST IMPORTANT---- discussing this right now is the wrong time. The
CentOS team needs to be focused on the builds. They need to 'feel good'. They do not need these distractions, complaints, suggestions, pressures and generally negative comments at this moment in time. If it really bothers you, save it for later and bring it up when things are back to normal loads. Perhaps some good will come out of it, but not now. I know that most mean well, but look inside of yourself and the rush is about something you want... and YOU chose a FREE distro, which just so happens to convert to the paid version very easily.
As I stated on the other thread, this was discussed to death 18 months ago and I actually received assurances what has happened wouldn't happened. I am not holding anybody to what they said, but it adds further doubt about the sustainability of the distribution. Personally, I think it is better to lower expectation, but not leave it open ended, e.g. CentOS 6 will no more than another six months and 5.6 another 2 months. Perhaps we have been spoilt by the snappiness of the releases in the past. Plus, rename to something that doesn't suggest enterprise grade.
Anyway, I couldn't get Xen 4 +PVOPS kernel working with CentOS 5.5, so I have temporarily moved my Xen server to Debian, although the plan was to move it back when CentOS 6 came out, but I shall think of another plan.
Please please please... ease up, give them the time they need. Make notes for future conversations, but quit distracting them and making them feel bad. Or, write your scathing reply to a thread... get really down angry and in the dirt... then when you're done, just delete it.
The <delete> key works on everybody's keyboard.
On 02/21/2011 04:02 PM, Ian Murray wrote:
another six months and 5.6 another 2 months. Perhaps we have been spoilt by the snappiness of the releases in the past. Plus, rename to something that doesn't suggest enterprise grade.
You always have the option of paying for a RHEL license if you want "true" enterprise grade Linux.
CentOS fills a niche; People who need a very stable distro while not being willing or able to pay the Red Hat license fees. That it takes time to release does nothing to diminish it's "enterprise" quality. In fact, I'd argue that rushing it out the door would do more harm than good.
If you can't wait, go RHEL or Debian as you have. In the meantime, please leave the *volunteers* creating CentOS alone. They will release CentOS 6 when they are able to, and no sooner.
----- Original Message ----
From: Barry Brimer lists@brimer.org To: CentOS mailing list centos@centos.org Sent: Mon, 21 February, 2011 21:12:57 Subject: Re: [CentOS] Air Conditioning - ON!
On Mon, 21 Feb 2011, Ian Murray wrote:
Plus, rename to something that doesn't suggest enterprise grade.
How does the time between upstream release and downstream release have any effect on whether or not something is considered "enterprise grade"?
Because right now, if you are running 5.5 then you have no clue when any security updates are going to start coming your way again.... because RedHat security updates are against 5.6, which you don't have yet. It has already been said before that backporting the security updates to current CentOS release (5.5) is not a trivial task and yet more work for the devs (and breaks the binary compatibility rule.)
You get me wrong here. I am not having a go about how long the updates are taking...(if you think I am, you are not reading my comments properly)... take as long as you want... just please don't dress the distribution as enterprise ready as the build infrastructure is quite heavily dependent on one or two people by the looks of it. Illness or some other personal circumstance chance could easily de-rail the process altogether. Rename it is JKos or something.
On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 12:33:39AM +0000, Ian Murray wrote:
You get me wrong here. I am not having a go about how long the updates are taking...(if you think I am, you are not reading my comments properly)... take as long as you want... just please don't dress the distribution as enterprise ready as the build infrastructure is quite heavily dependent on one or two people by the looks of it. Illness or some other personal circumstance chance could easily de-rail the process altogether. Rename it is JKos or something.
No one is taking you wrong here; you are indeed having a go about it, to use your terminology. How about the project renames the distribution to "IfYouDontLikeItYouAreNotForcedToUseItOS"?
John
No one is taking you wrong here;
Did you check with everybody before you spoke for them all?
How about the project renames the distribution to "IfYouDontLikeItYouAreNotForcedToUseItOS"?
That is a fantastic idea because IMHO it would be a much fairer assessment of the distribution than alluding to the "Enterprise" aspect.
Getting back to the issue of release times... why don't the developers declare that minor (dot) releases will be within six months and major release within a year of upstream release. And any discussion before that will not be entered into.
If you can't adjust the release time, then adjust the expectations.
How about the project renames the distribution to"IfYouDontLikeItYouAreNotForcedToUseItOS"?
That is a fantastic idea because IMHO it would be a much fairer assessment of the distribution than alluding to the "Enterprise" aspect.
Calling it Enterprise is important because doing so establishes the *origin* and the *objective* of the work: a BUG-FOR-BUG-IDENTICAL de-branding/re-branding of Red Hat ENTERPRISE Linux.
If you can't adjust the release time, then adjust the expectations.
We have: It's done when it's done. That's what we expect, and that's what we get. On time, every time. Or, as I put it: <voice=tantric chant>"Oh Mani Padme When It's Done Mmmmmmm"</voice>
I humbly beseech all the "why/when/how/etc ... done?" folks to please hush. You do not speed up the work and may slow it down.
//me ******************************************************************* This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. www.Hubbell.com - Hubbell Incorporated**
Calling it Enterprise is important because doing so establishes the *origin* and the *objective* of the work: a BUG-FOR-BUG-IDENTICAL de-branding/re-branding of Red Hat ENTERPRISE Linux.
How about BugforbugIdenticaldebreandingrebrandingofupstreamenterpriselinuxOS?
Only joking. I take your point, but the critical fixes being held up for a dot release isn't really very Enterprise friendly either. I think it fair to say that CentOS is not suitable for the enterprise unless the servers are non-public, on a secure network and the risk of internal hacking is low. That is just an unfortunate nature of a rebuild project but it does make the release time a sensitive matter.
Karanbir tweeted during FOSDEM that the Belgian police use CentOS. As everyone who is paying attention knows that any exploit that RedHat has released an updated package for post is 5.6 is sat waiting to be exploited on those police servers because it won't make the CentOS repositories until 5.6 is out. I wonder if the Belgian police know that.
So.... if anybody can be bothered to check the errata from upstream and want to do some mischief.....fill your boots...
http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?url=http://www.polfed-fedpol.be
If you can't adjust the release time, then adjust the expectations.
We have: It's done when it's done. That's what we expect, and that's what we get. On time, every time.
I did think about that when when I made my earlier comment. The trouble is is that it obviously isn't working because we have these list flame-ups.
On 02/22/2011 02:35 PM, Ian Murray wrote:
Calling it Enterprise is important because doing so establishes the *origin* and the *objective* of the work: a BUG-FOR-BUG-IDENTICAL de-branding/re-branding of Red Hat ENTERPRISE Linux.
How about BugforbugIdenticaldebreandingrebrandingofupstreamenterpriselinuxOS?
Only joking. I take your point, but the critical fixes being held up for a dot release isn't really very Enterprise friendly either. I think it fair to say that CentOS is not suitable for the enterprise unless the servers are non-public, on a secure network and the risk of internal hacking is low. That is just an unfortunate nature of a rebuild project but it does make the release time a sensitive matter.
Karanbir tweeted during FOSDEM that the Belgian police use CentOS. As everyone who is paying attention knows that any exploit that RedHat has released an updated package for post is 5.6 is sat waiting to be exploited on those police servers because it won't make the CentOS repositories until 5.6 is out. I wonder if the Belgian police know that.
So.... if anybody can be bothered to check the errata from upstream and want to do some mischief.....fill your boots...
http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?url=http://www.polfed-fedpol.be
If you can't adjust the release time, then adjust the expectations.
We have: It's done when it's done. That's what we expect, and that's what we get. On time, every time.
I did think about that when when I made my earlier comment. The trouble is is that it obviously isn't working because we have these list flame-ups.
I think 8 million unique machines disagree with you assessment. Who knows, maybe all 8 million are wrong and the 10-20 people who are discussing it on this list are right.
On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 10:56 PM, Johnny Hughes johnny@centos.org wrote:
I think 8 million unique machines disagree with you assessment.
With 8 million unique machines running Centos and perhaps millions people more depending on them comes great responsability.
I hope the Centos crew know what they're doing.
Cheers!
I think 8 million unique machines disagree with you assessment. Who knows, maybe all 8 million are wrong and the 10-20 people who are discussing it on this list are right.
Man, you could build a killer botnet if you wanted to!! (which strengthens your argument about the point about the package building/signing)
Fair play to you, because it was 4-5 million when I last heard that argument 18 months ago. And let's not forget there is no right and wrong answer, only opinions.
At the risk of going off-topic (which probably would be a good thing) is that number based on IP address or something else? The reason why I ask is that I create and breakdown a fair numbers of Xen paravirtual CentOS guests... but they live behind the same NAT'd firewall. Just wondering if they show up as the same or separate on your stats?
On Feb 22, 2011, at 2:56 PM, Johnny Hughes wrote:
On 02/22/2011 02:35 PM, Ian Murray wrote:
I did think about that when when I made my earlier comment. The trouble is is that it obviously isn't working because we have these list flame-ups.
I think 8 million unique machines disagree with you assessment. Who knows, maybe all 8 million are wrong and the 10-20 people who are discussing it on this list are right.
Zing!
Not to mention I'd think the Belgian police might be more concerned at your invitation for mischief on their systems.
Just because CentOS is a relatively small operation compared to commercial offerings or maybe other community offerings, does not mean that it is any less suited for critical applications. Perhaps the CentOS project could use some more man power to insure updates are not stalled because a key player is unavailable at the wrong time, but I don't think it's a situation that only CentOS suffers from. With CentOS it is perhaps more visible -- we know when the update was available upstream and how long it took to show up in CentOS repos. This is less obvious upstream, unless you are paying close attention to every individual Open Source project that upstream draws from... in which case perhaps you could use some of that time contributing to CentOS. Problem solved.
-- Ryan Ordway E-mail: rordway@oregonstate.edu Unix Systems Administrator rordway@library.oregonstate.edu OSU Libraries, Corvallis, OR 97331 Office: Valley Library #4657
On Feb 22, 2011, at 3:35 PM, Ian Murray murrayie@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Only joking. I take your point, but the critical fixes being held up for a dot release isn't really very Enterprise friendly either. I think it fair to say that CentOS is not suitable for the enterprise unless the servers are non-public, on a secure network and the risk of internal hacking is low. That is just an unfortunate nature of a rebuild project but it does make the release time a sensitive matter.
Karanbir tweeted during FOSDEM that the Belgian police use CentOS. As everyone who is paying attention knows that any exploit that RedHat has released an updated package for post is 5.6 is sat waiting to be exploited on those police servers because it won't make the CentOS repositories until 5.6 is out. I wonder if the Belgian police know that.
So.... if anybody can be bothered to check the errata from upstream and want to do some mischief.....fill your boots...
http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?url=http://www.polfed-fedpol.be
The best thing CentOS gives you is choice.
If your critical machines need updates in a more timely manner, then put RHEL on them. For those that don't put CentOS on them and save $$$.
Free is free and it comes free of warranty or guarantee or any other tee.
-Ross
On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 07:54:58PM +0000, Ian Murray wrote:
No one is taking you wrong here;Did you check with everybody before you spoke for them all?
Pretty damned sure I made it explicitly clear in a post from Sunday that I speak only for myself and no one else. Ever.
That is a fantastic idea because IMHO it would be a much fairer assessment of the distribution than alluding to the "Enterprise" aspect.
It's a shame that the whole sarcasm thing went completely over your head.
You're an idiot if you don't think that CentOS is an enterprise-grade distro and while I may not agree with your comments in this thread you don't really come across as an idiot. So is there a reason you're just trying to incite yet more fights and long, drawn-out discussions that will, in the end, amount to absolutely nothing at all?
John
On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 2:21 AM, John Hinton webmaster@ew3d.com wrote:
We have a small team which volunteers their time to create the CentOS releases. They are pounded right now with getting that done... it is as simple as that. Each of us 'chose' to use CentOS and with that choice comes nothing more.
Maybe we are all still shock that IBM Watson runs on Suse. LOL just kidding! I don't use Suse. I use Centos all my life. Thank you for the wonderful experience.
I understand how answering everyone's requests for progress updates can slow a development process, I've been on the development side of that before. I want a progress report as much as anyone I'm sure (and so does my boss), but, I'm not going to ask for it. I instead spend a little time, and do a bit of digging, and can find enough of an answer. I think though, I have had better luck finding progress information on CentOS than I did when I was waiting on upstream to release 6 (of course they had betas, and maybe I just didn't look in the right place, but I didn't find much status information). Committing to a product launch date, then trying to patch the product after the fact is IMHO a bad thing, and I'm glad upstream & CentOS do not do this.
I can think of some suggestions of my own to maybe help the development process and community involvement (as I'm sure a so can a great many people), but I will keep those to myself for now. Trying to change anything major now will only significantly slow things down.
CentOS team, you have my understanding, and my appreciation for your hard work, and I look forward to being able to use the product of that work when it's ready.
On 2/21/2011 1:21 PM, John Hinton wrote:
All,
(and please do not turn this into the next long thread)
We have a small team which volunteers their time to create the CentOS releases. They are pounded right now with getting that done... it is as simple as that. Each of us 'chose' to use CentOS and with that choice comes nothing more.
Why are we complaining? To me, it is all very self-centered. Basically we're all complaining because we 'want' something. And yes, I'm on edge wanting something as well... but that is life with RedHat in general.
Some of the suggestions made:
- Send money. OK, so using a very loose or reapplied definition of a
word... we want to 'prostitute' the CentOS team. In other words, if we send money we have the 'right' to gripe and press for rapid releases? Demand services?
- Add more staff. As a small business owner, the very last thing you
want to do is add more staff when you are in a slammed state. It takes all of the 'productive' workers time to train the new staff and output slows to a crawl.
- Make any other number of 'helpful' suggestions. Well, I think by now
the CentOS team knows better than us how this needs to be done based on infrastructure and team members. And even if they aren't doing it right, we don't get to make demands that it be done differently as this is how they have decided to do it. Remember, you chose CentOS based on how they operate. You can go away if you like.
- Bringing up other distros that are ahead of CentOS. This just an
attempt at indirect pressure on the CentOS team to get a competition going. Only the team gets to choose their competition. CentOS 'rates' how it rates and that is up to the CentOS team and their decisions. Some cheerleading might be welcomed, as long as it doesn't become an "I cheer for you therefore you owe me".
- MOST IMPORTANT---- discussing this right now is the wrong time. The
CentOS team needs to be focused on the builds. They need to 'feel good'. They do not need these distractions, complaints, suggestions, pressures and generally negative comments at this moment in time. If it really bothers you, save it for later and bring it up when things are back to normal loads. Perhaps some good will come out of it, but not now. I know that most mean well, but look inside of yourself and the rush is about something you want... and YOU chose a FREE distro, which just so happens to convert to the paid version very easily.
6,7,8,9 and 10 (fill in your own but keep them to yourself)
If I were a member of the CentOS team right now, I'd likely be looking at the door. I positively would be needing to step back and take some time to myself to try to cool off and feel positive about what I'm doing. To me and from what I have heard from the CentOS team, very little of what is being said on the list is helping but instead is counterproductive at the moment. Obviously the team is 'reading' the list and 'obviously' some of us have pushed them further at a very high stress time, than they have ever been pushed before.
You may also note that upstream was also 'very late' with these new releases. Could it be we are discovering why? (please don't try to answer that)
Please please please... ease up, give them the time they need. Make notes for future conversations, but quit distracting them and making them feel bad. Or, write your scathing reply to a thread... get really down angry and in the dirt... then when you're done, just delete it.
CentOS team,
I do have just one suggestion (and I have no rights to ask this). It seems that the list goes quiet and waits for a while and then explodes a few days/weeks/months later with this banter. If you would consider a public release to this list, perhaps once per week during major releases with just some tidbit of how things are going, perhaps these threads wouldn't explode. With that would be the need for it to be an announcement or something that does not allow it to become a drawn out thread with hoards of perceived 'helpful' suggestions. I can't blame you for not doing this prior, as I'm sure it will fuel fires such as the one raging at the moment. Is there a way this could be done with a 'no-reply' setting or something?
With Much Appreciation, John Hinton
CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
I really appreciate the availability of CentOS. Thank you to all the people who work on it and form part of this community!!
Best, Aleksey
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