hi guys,
Just a quick note about adding [SOLVED] tags to the Subject lines on email lists : Dont do it, it does not help and makes no difference to the content - yet, it breaks threading of responses.
Unline web forums, email clients will try and thread using the Subject and in-reply-to headers to retain thread sanity. So dont please dont break that, its quite a key part of the whole mailing lists experience for everyone.
I understand that some people seem to think that adding that makes it easier to later search on google. And if thats the case, adding the SOLVED word in your actual email body would do just as well, Add it high up the body content for even better effect.
- KB
On Thu, 28 Jul 2011, Karanbir Singh wrote:
To: CentOS mailing list centos@centos.org From: Karanbir Singh mail-lists@karan.org Subject: [CentOS] Adding the [SOLVED] Tag to break threads
hi guys,
Just a quick note about adding [SOLVED] tags to the Subject lines on email lists : Dont do it, it does not help and makes no difference to the content - yet, it breaks threading of responses.
Unline web forums, email clients will try and thread using the Subject and in-reply-to headers to retain thread sanity. So dont please dont break that, its quite a key part of the whole mailing lists experience for everyone.
Is that why it's frowned upon to use a current thread to start a new one? Like doing a 'reply to' and then changing the subject line?
Kind Regards,
Keith Roberts
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On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 3:19 PM, Keith Roberts keith@karsites.net wrote:
Is that why it's frowned upon to use a current thread to start a new one? Like doing a 'reply to' and then changing the subject line?
Kind Regards,
Keith Roberts
Yup. Even if you change the subject, the email headers still remain and many email clients use the email headers to group the mails relevant to that conversation
In article sig.51907ae09c.CAAj3DjkxVacpejZzYYwUhqSpfeW2pKeN93XrFbMbd8jnVScZug@mail.gmail.com, Rudi Ahlers Rudi@SoftDux.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 3:19 PM, Keith Roberts keith@karsites.net wrote:
Is that why it's frowned upon to use a current thread to start a new one? Like doing a 'reply to' and then changing the subject line?
Yup. Even if you change the subject, the email headers still remain and many email clients use the email headers to group the mails relevant to that conversation
By that token, adding [SOLVED] is not such a problem after all!
I personally find it useful to see [SOLVED] without having to open each post to find which one in a long thread contains the solution.
Convention has it that only the original poster adds [SOLVED], when summarising how the original problem was overcome. - i.e. suggested solutions from others do not add it.
Tony
On 07/28/2011 09:59 AM Tony Mountifield wrote:
In article sig.51907ae09c.CAAj3DjkxVacpejZzYYwUhqSpfeW2pKeN93XrFbMbd8jnVScZug@mail.gmail.com, Rudi Ahlers Rudi@SoftDux.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 3:19 PM, Keith Roberts keith@karsites.net wrote:
Is that why it's frowned upon to use a current thread to start a new one? Like doing a 'reply to' and then changing the subject line?
Yup. Even if you change the subject, the email headers still remain and many email clients use the email headers to group the mails relevant to that conversation
By that token, adding [SOLVED] is not such a problem after all!
I personally find it useful to see [SOLVED] without having to open each post to find which one in a long thread contains the solution.
Convention has it that only the original poster adds [SOLVED], when summarising how the original problem was overcome. - i.e. suggested solutions from others do not add it.
Tony
The effect of changing the Subject line is going to vary with the email reader and composer apps which are used. (Though I'm not versed well enough in the internals of mail servers to say, off the top of my head I can't see why they would handle mail any differently due to a change in the Subject line.) Among the numerous header lines of the email from Tony above is this one:
In-Reply-To: sig.51907ae09c.CAAj3DjkxVacpejZzYYwUhqSpfeW2pKeN93XrFbMbd8jnVScZug@mail.gmail.com
(It may appear line-wrapped, but as delivered to me it is all on a single line. Also, I emphatically didn't pick this line because it has my name in it alongside the year I started using Linux. :) I'm assuming that this is meant to assist in thread ordering. As such, it should be sufficient and overcome variations in the text of the Subject line. Yet that will depend on the code in everyone's email readers. We should consider the mail archives as well, whether they also use the same algorithms and determinants for organizing threads. As a long time Tbird user, I find that it handles variations in the Subject line quite well: e.g., threading is preserved despite alterations to the Subject line. This is no guarantee regarding other mail readers or archivers.
As a test, I appended a couple words to the previous subject line. If this causes this email to show up as the beginning of a new thread to you, please report that back to us along with the email reader and version you're using. (Of course this is far from a rigorous test, but it's the best I can do at the moment.)
Thanks, ken
Regards,
Marc Deop On Thursday 28 July 2011 11:14:38 ken wrote:
On 07/28/2011 09:59 AM Tony Mountifield wrote:
In article sig.51907ae09c.CAAj3DjkxVacpejZzYYwUhqSpfeW2pKeN93XrFbMbd8jnVScZug@mail.gmail.com, Rudi Ahlers Rudi@SoftDux.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 3:19 PM, Keith Roberts keith@karsites.net wrote:
Is that why it's frowned upon to use a current thread to start a new one? Like doing a 'reply to' and then changing the subject line?
Yup. Even if you change the subject, the email headers still remain and many email clients use the email headers to group the mails relevant to that conversation
By that token, adding [SOLVED] is not such a problem after all!
I personally find it useful to see [SOLVED] without having to open each post to find which one in a long thread contains the solution.
Convention has it that only the original poster adds [SOLVED], when summarising how the original problem was overcome. - i.e. suggested solutions from others do not add it.
Tony
The effect of changing the Subject line is going to vary with the email reader and composer apps which are used. (Though I'm not versed well enough in the internals of mail servers to say, off the top of my head I can't see why they would handle mail any differently due to a change in the Subject line.) Among the numerous header lines of the email from Tony above is this one:
In-Reply-To: sig.51907ae09c.CAAj3DjkxVacpejZzYYwUhqSpfeW2pKeN93XrFbMbd8jnVScZug@mail.gmail.com
(It may appear line-wrapped, but as delivered to me it is all on a single line. Also, I emphatically didn't pick this line because it has my name in it alongside the year I started using Linux. :) I'm assuming that this is meant to assist in thread ordering. As such, it should be sufficient and overcome variations in the text of the Subject line. Yet that will depend on the code in everyone's email readers. We should consider the mail archives as well, whether they also use the same algorithms and determinants for organizing threads. As a long time Tbird user, I find that it handles variations in the Subject line quite well: e.g., threading is preserved despite alterations to the Subject line. This is no guarantee regarding other mail readers or archivers.
As a test, I appended a couple words to the previous subject line. If this causes this email to show up as the beginning of a new thread to you, please report that back to us along with the email reader and version you're using. (Of course this is far from a rigorous test, but it's the best I can do at the moment.)
Thanks, ken
This discussion makes no sense to me. If the email client is using the subject for threading it is doing something wrong (or you specifically set it that way).
As Ken said, there are headers used to organize the emails.
As for ken's test, it's working fine for me :)
Regards
As a test, I appended a couple words to the previous subject line.
If
this causes this email to show up as the beginning of a new thread
to
you, please report that back to us along with the email reader and version you're using. (Of course this is far from a rigorous test,
but
it's the best I can do at the moment.)
Thanks, ken
This discussion makes no sense to me. If the email client is using the subject for threading it is doing something wrong (or you specifically set it that way).
As Ken said, there are headers used to organize the emails.
As for ken's test, it's working fine for me :)
Because of corporate requirements, I use Microsoft Outlook 2007 to read my email. I use View->Arrange By->Conversation to read this forum. Each time someone changes the subject line, it appears to me as a new conversation.
For example, when Ken added "multiple factors", a new conversation was started.
When Marc changed it to "multiplefactors", yet another conversation was started.
So I would appreciate it if people would not mess with the Subject line. On the other hand, it's not really a big deal. I can live with it.
-Owen
On Thu, 2011-07-28 at 10:49 -0500, Owen Beckley wrote:
Because of corporate requirements, I use Microsoft Outlook 2007 to read email. I use View->Arrange By->Conversation to read this forum. Each time someone changes the subject line, it appears to me as a new conversation.
For example, when Ken added "multiple factors", a new conversation was started.
Does not 'conversation' require a minimum of two people exchanging speech between themselves
Educational standards may be lax at M$, but why is M$ giving the world a negative impression of basic literacy in the US of A? No wonder Centos is popular among 'educated' people :-)
On 07/28/2011 04:19 PM, Marc Deop wrote:
This discussion makes no sense to me. If the email client is using the subject for threading it is doing something wrong (or you specifically set it that way).
As Ken said, there are headers used to organize the emails.
the thing is that not all mail clients will set the in-reply-to headers, whuch is why clients like thunderbird, evolution and mutt will use the subject line as well to thread messages.
- KB
On Thursday 28 July 2011 16:52:07 Karanbir Singh wrote:
On 07/28/2011 04:19 PM, Marc Deop wrote:
This discussion makes no sense to me. If the email client is using the subject for threading it is doing something wrong (or you specifically set it that way).
As Ken said, there are headers used to organize the emails.
the thing is that not all mail clients will set the in-reply-to headers, whuch is why clients like thunderbird, evolution and mutt will use the subject line as well to thread messages.
So the mail clients that don't set these headers should be fixed, right? I mean, fix the broken software rather than try to fix human habits in order to keep using broken software.
Best, :-) Marko
On 07/28/11 10:21 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
So the mail clients that don't set these headers should be fixed, right? I mean, fix the broken software rather than try to fix human habits in order to keep using broken software.
a frequent cause of missing "References" seems to be users who get a digested list, then manually try and reply to a message within it. the whole digest thing seems like a hangover from an earlier era when emailers didn't have filters and folders.
On 7/28/2011 12:32 PM, John R Pierce wrote:
On 07/28/11 10:21 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
So the mail clients that don't set these headers should be fixed, right? I mean, fix the broken software rather than try to fix human habits in order to keep using broken software.
a frequent cause of missing "References" seems to be users who get a digested list, then manually try and reply to a message within it. the whole digest thing seems like a hangover from an earlier era when emailers didn't have filters and folders.
The digest concept still makes sense for people who want to see messages but no more than one per interval. But if they were invented today they'd be a message containing a group of attached messages and your mailer would know how to open them and reply individually.
But the thing I'd like mailers to do is to call attention to messages that belong to a thread where I've replied earlier. Is there a way to get thunderbird to do that?
On 07/28/2011 06:53 PM, Les Mikesell wrote:
But the thing I'd like mailers to do is to call attention to messages that belong to a thread where I've replied earlier. Is there a way to get thunderbird to do that?
yes, I mark email threads I am interested in with a flag, and its easy to workout new emails in threads with a flag. Does not help if threads are all over the place though.
the other, a bit crude, way to achieve a similar goal is to use sieve with a server side bayes ranking that works on the body of emails, and have that rate threads. i do something like this to track lkml where the overall mail rate is too high to track
- KB
On 7/28/2011 12:57 PM, Karanbir Singh wrote:
On 07/28/2011 06:53 PM, Les Mikesell wrote:
But the thing I'd like mailers to do is to call attention to messages that belong to a thread where I've replied earlier. Is there a way to get thunderbird to do that?
yes, I mark email threads I am interested in with a flag, and its easy to workout new emails in threads with a flag. Does not help if threads are all over the place though.
I don't want to mark anything, I want the mailer to know that I am interested in replies to my own messages. And I generally read/reply on an assortment of different computers with a common imap server so it would have to track the references to get it right.
I thought newsreaders used to do this long ago, but it has been a long time since I've used one.
on 7/28/2011 11:04 AM Les Mikesell spake the following:
On 7/28/2011 12:57 PM, Karanbir Singh wrote:
On 07/28/2011 06:53 PM, Les Mikesell wrote:
But the thing I'd like mailers to do is to call attention to messages that belong to a thread where I've replied earlier. Is there a way to get thunderbird to do that?
yes, I mark email threads I am interested in with a flag, and its easy to workout new emails in threads with a flag. Does not help if threads are all over the place though.
I don't want to mark anything, I want the mailer to know that I am interested in replies to my own messages. And I generally read/reply on an assortment of different computers with a common imap server so it would have to track the references to get it right.
I thought newsreaders used to do this long ago, but it has been a long time since I've used one.
I look to see if lists I am interested in are on gmane, and then subscribe there with a newsreader. It is much easier to keep threading intact.
On 07/28/2011 07:04 PM, Les Mikesell wrote:
I don't want to mark anything, I want the mailer to know that I am interested in replies to my own messages. And I generally read/reply on an assortment of different computers with a common imap server so it would have to track the references to get it right.
well, you can always create a filter that automarks back based on fcc etc ( if you use imap ). Flags and tag's are all server side anyway. Although, I cant think of an easy way to implement something like that it might need a bit of perl wrapped around the sieve/procmail policy files.
- KB
On 07/28/2011 06:21 PM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
So the mail clients that don't set these headers should be fixed, right? I mean, fix the broken software rather than try to fix human habits in order to keep using broken software.
Habit is an interestion term, same with convention - the fact that mailing lists have been around for a while, is enough to make me think that unless there is a value add, dont mess around with whats already in place.
btw, i dont disagree with what you are saying - ideally people would stop using yahoo mail / squirrelmail etc. But thats harder and creates a much higher barrier than just sticking with established conventions.
- KB
On 07/28/2011 06:54 PM, Always Learning wrote:
On Thu, 2011-07-28 at 18:49 +0100, Thunderbird Fan (KB) wrote:
ideally people would stop using yahoo mail / squirrelmail etc.
... and use a *real* email programme ?
'real' is hard to quantify, but an email client that does the right thing for lists is easier to work out.
btw, there are always the web forums for people who find that sort of a thing easier to work with. And while I dont use them myself, I've heard plenty of good things about the centos forums.
- KB
On 07/28/11 8:52 AM, Karanbir Singh wrote:
the thing is that not all mail clients will set the in-reply-to headers, whuch is why clients like thunderbird, evolution and mutt will use the subject line as well to thread messages.
Its the "References:" header that controls threading in mail clients that support it. I'm using thunderbird, and afaik, it won't revert to Subject based pseudo threading in the absence of References. Subject line changes don't break the thread, which is why using 'reply' and changing the subject to start a new thread makes a mess wherre the new thread is buried in the original that it was in reply to....
On 07/28/2011 06:23 PM, John R Pierce wrote:
Its the "References:" header that controls threading in mail clients that support it. I'm using thunderbird, and afaik, it won't revert to Subject based pseudo threading in the absence of References. Subject line changes don't break the thread, which is why using 'reply' and changing the subject to start a new thread makes a mess wherre the new thread is buried in the original that it was in reply to....
there is a mix of what all are used, its mostly the in-reply-to that is supposed to be used, akait. References is also there, but introduced much later ( was it down to a Microsoft feature that they insisted get into the rfc ? ).
See what your mail.strict_threading and mail.thread_without_re are set to; if you disable threading by subject, a very very large number of emails will lose thread sanity on this list.
setting reply and changing subject does not change threads if your mail client is already doing the right thing. My argument here is that not all mail clients do, therefore sticking with subject line sanity would help increase the number of threads that can stay together.
- KB
On 07/28/2011 06:54 PM, Karanbir Singh wrote:
My argument here is that not all mail clients do, therefore sticking with subject line sanity would help increase the number of threads that can stay together.
I agree with KB on this one.
Way I see it is, you could go everyone to install a new mail client, or contact their administrators to do so (corporate environment) if they want to keep threads in one piece. Don't think that would go so well...
Or...
You could simply choose not to modify the thread title thus keeping everyone happy. Granted Mailing Lists will never be perfect threading wise due to so many variations of mail clients etc. However would be nice to see some people simply at least try to keep the list clean :-)
I too use threaded mode on my mail client (Thunderbird 3.1.11) and often threads are indeed broken because someone decided to change the subject line or change something or other.
In article 4E319B13.8000000@hogranch.com, John R Pierce pierce@hogranch.com wrote:
On 07/28/11 8:52 AM, Karanbir Singh wrote:
the thing is that not all mail clients will set the in-reply-to headers, whuch is why clients like thunderbird, evolution and mutt will use the subject line as well to thread messages.
Its the "References:" header that controls threading in mail clients that support it. I'm using thunderbird, and afaik, it won't revert to Subject based pseudo threading in the absence of References. Subject line changes don't break the thread, which is why using 'reply' and changing the subject to start a new thread makes a mess wherre the new thread is buried in the original that it was in reply to....
References: is for Usenet news, not email. Email uses In-Reply-To.
In fact, on my local server, mail messages from the centos list are fed through a filter that changes In-Reply-To to References and then fed into my local INN news server, so I can read it with a threaded news reader instead of a mail program. The group is set to be moderated, so when I post, it gets emailed to the list address. Before doing so, it goes through another filter that changes the References: header back to an In-Reply-To with the mode recent message-ID.
Cheers Tony
the thing is that not all mail clients will set the in-reply-to headers, whuch is why clients like thunderbird, evolution and mutt will use the subject line as well to thread messages.
Apple Mail does that too and it makes the threading unusable IMO.
If the clients are too dumb to adhere to a convention, I don't believe it's our job to baby them.
Personally, I like the idea of the [SOLVED] tags because they can indicate when help is no longer needed.
However, I also like the way the Sun Managers list does (did? it's been many years since I used it), but they basically said, post a question, work it out, then post a new SOLVED thread outlining the solution.
While that would probably be a bit too formal for this list, it was a fantastic way of learning things. And having the solved thread made searching through archives way easier. Find a problem related to yours, then look for the SOLVED post. If you needed more detail, you went back to the main thread and read all the posts to see how they came to that conclusion.
On 07/28/2011 10:01 PM, Spiro Harvey wrote:
Personally, I like the idea of the [SOLVED] tags because they can indicate when help is no longer needed.
There is a fundamental problem with that - this list isnt a support list, its a list of and for people who use CentOS to talk about CentOS. By thinking of it as a one way support system you have reduced the list to essentially a bugtracker / issuetracker / support thread and that in itself defeats a very large part of what the list ( and community herein ) is about.
Just my thoughts anyway
- KB
There is a fundamental problem with that - this list isnt a support list, its a list of and for people who use CentOS to talk about CentOS. By thinking of it as a one way support system you have reduced the list to essentially a bugtracker / issuetracker / support thread and that in itself defeats a very large part of what the list ( and community herein ) is about.
Yep, that's kind of what I was meaning by saying it was a more "formal" approach, but you said it better. :)
On 7/28/2011 5:01 PM, Spiro Harvey wrote:
the thing is that not all mail clients will set the in-reply-to headers, whuch is why clients like thunderbird, evolution and mutt will use the subject line as well to thread messages.
Apple Mail does that too and it makes the threading unusable IMO.
If the clients are too dumb to adhere to a convention, I don't believe it's our job to baby them.
Personally, I like the idea of the [SOLVED] tags because they can indicate when help is no longer needed.
However, I also like the way the Sun Managers list does (did? it's been many years since I used it), but they basically said, post a question, work it out, then post a new SOLVED thread outlining the solution.
While that would probably be a bit too formal for this list, it was a fantastic way of learning things. And having the solved thread made searching through archives way easier. Find a problem related to yours, then look for the SOLVED post. If you needed more detail, you went back to the main thread and read all the posts to see how they came to that conclusion.
Heck, I'd settle for people coming back to a "problem / issue" thread and updating on how or what the actual problem was or what they did to get the thing to work properly.
So often you'll see a thread talking about trying X, Y & Z, then the person having the problem never responds back as to whether X, Y or Z worked. Which is especially troublesome a year or two later when you're digging through threads in GMane trying to find a solution to a particular issue.
(Pet peeve of the day -- dead end threads on mail lists.)
On 07/29/2011 07:48 AM, Thomas Harold wrote:
On 7/28/2011 5:01 PM, Spiro Harvey wrote:
the thing is that not all mail clients will set the in-reply-to headers, whuch is why clients like thunderbird, evolution and mutt will use the subject line as well to thread messages.
Apple Mail does that too and it makes the threading unusable IMO.
If the clients are too dumb to adhere to a convention, I don't believe it's our job to baby them.
Personally, I like the idea of the [SOLVED] tags because they can indicate when help is no longer needed.
However, I also like the way the Sun Managers list does (did? it's been many years since I used it), but they basically said, post a question, work it out, then post a new SOLVED thread outlining the solution.
While that would probably be a bit too formal for this list, it was a fantastic way of learning things. And having the solved thread made searching through archives way easier. Find a problem related to yours, then look for the SOLVED post. If you needed more detail, you went back to the main thread and read all the posts to see how they came to that conclusion.
Heck, I'd settle for people coming back to a "problem / issue" thread and updating on how or what the actual problem was or what they did to get the thing to work properly.
So often you'll see a thread talking about trying X, Y& Z, then the person having the problem never responds back as to whether X, Y or Z worked. Which is especially troublesome a year or two later when you're digging through threads in GMane trying to find a solution to a particular issue.
(Pet peeve of the day -- dead end threads on mail lists.)
+100
On 07/29/2011 12:48 PM, Thomas Harold wrote:
Heck, I'd settle for people coming back to a "problem / issue" thread and updating on how or what the actual problem was or what they did to get the thing to work properly.
So often you'll see a thread talking about trying X, Y & Z, then the person having the problem never responds back as to whether X, Y or Z worked. Which is especially troublesome a year or two later when you're digging through threads in GMane trying to find a solution to a particular issue.
(Pet peeve of the day -- dead end threads on mail lists.)
Couldn't Agree more.
On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 12:49 AM, Jake Shipton crazylinuxnerd@gmx.com wrote:
On 07/29/2011 12:48 PM, Thomas Harold wrote:
Heck, I'd settle for people coming back to a "problem / issue" thread and updating on how or what the actual problem was or what they did to get the thing to work properly.
So often you'll see a thread talking about trying X, Y & Z, then the person having the problem never responds back as to whether X, Y or Z worked. Which is especially troublesome a year or two later when you're digging through threads in GMane trying to find a solution to a particular issue.
(Pet peeve of the day -- dead end threads on mail lists.)
Couldn't Agree more.
Sheesh! I'm sorry that my action of adding [Solved] to the subject has stirred up such a can of worms. I initially thought that the person who contacted me off-line was being prissy. I can now see that strong opinions are held on both sides of the debate, but it is definitely off-topic, I believe (subject to correction by the owners of the list, of course). Please can we drop it?
Cheers,
Cliff
On Sat, 30 Jul 2011, Cliff Pratt wrote:
To: CentOS mailing list centos@centos.org From: Cliff Pratt enkiduonthenet@gmail.com Subject: Re: [CentOS] Adding the [SOLVED] Tag to break threads -- multiple factors
On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 12:49 AM, Jake Shipton crazylinuxnerd@gmx.com wrote:
On 07/29/2011 12:48 PM, Thomas Harold wrote:
Heck, I'd settle for people coming back to a "problem / issue" thread and updating on how or what the actual problem was or what they did to get the thing to work properly.
So often you'll see a thread talking about trying X, Y & Z, then the person having the problem never responds back as to whether X, Y or Z worked. Which is especially troublesome a year or two later when you're digging through threads in GMane trying to find a solution to a particular issue.
(Pet peeve of the day -- dead end threads on mail lists.)
Couldn't Agree more.
Sheesh! I'm sorry that my action of adding [Solved] to the subject has stirred up such a can of worms. I initially thought that the person who contacted me off-line was being prissy. I can now see that strong opinions are held on both sides of the debate, but it is definitely off-topic, I believe (subject to correction by the owners of the list, of course). Please can we drop it?
Of course you can - just tag it as [SOLVED] - LOL! ;)
Keith
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