On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 7:07 AM, Miguel Di Ciurcio Filho < miguel@ic.unicamp.br> wrote:

mbneto wrote:

...

Hi,

The last status (from twitter) is 2 days old with the '5.4 is baked! centos internal network will start syncing up today. Release ~ soon!'. Any ETA?

Just relax and wait, this is a _volunteer_ based project. Want a release date? Go pay for RHEL.

This response is just as annoying as the request for an update.

-- j

Jake Shipton wrote:

Post #148.

You count your posts?????

Jake Shipton wrote:

On 16/10/09 09:38, Ian Blackwell wrote:

...

Jake Shipton wrote:

...

Post #148.

You count your posts????? _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos

No, that's the post # in the thread, of which I linked to (Eg, the one to look at).

Ohhhhh. My mistake. Sorry :)

Ian

Jeremy Rosengren wrote:

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 7:07 AM, Miguel Di Ciurcio Filho <miguel@ic.unicamp.br mailto:miguel@ic.unicamp.br> wrote:

mbneto wrote:
 > Hi,
 >
 > The last status (from twitter) is 2 days old with the '5.4 is baked!
 > centos internal network will start syncing up today. Release ~
soon!'.
 > Any ETA?
 >

Just relax and wait, this is a _volunteer_ based project. Want a release
date? Go pay for RHEL.

This response is just as annoying as the request for an update.

-- j

+1

Annoying and rude.

mg.

On Thu, 15 Oct 2009, Drew Weaver wrote:

...

Just relax and wait, this is a _volunteer_ based project. Want a release
date? Go pay for RHEL.

This response is just as annoying as the request for an update.

-- j

+1

Annoying and rude.

---

This might be why the Linux community as a whole gets such a bad rap.

-Drew

This whole thread and these answers are uncalled for. All of them, except for the original above at the top.

We know that CentOS releases are 4 weeks, plus or minus a few, after the release of the upstream OS.

Questions of "When it will it be released" are fruitless when, on the CentOS main site, they have been clearly answered. 4 weeks, give or take a few, with updates on Twitter.

If they are late because YOU think they are, what are you doing to help them? The testers have their hands full, and now they must handle flame wars, and be discouraged by people lobbing fireballs at them because their free OS hasn't been released "on time", according to your liking.

Might I remind everyone that 5.4 was released, in part, a WEEK after it came out...remember the security updates? Those were released because they didn't affect the functionality of the OS. So in effect, you do have some of it on your system already!

Please reconsider what all of you are saying here. I want it out just as much as you do...and with some simple investigation, one can find out that it's due out in 4 weeks or afterwards, and a simple "tweet" or message that we are two weeks behind or something should be fine. I don't care for progress reports, graphs to show how things are coming along. That takes time away from doing the important work. And I have gotten those updates fine on Twitter.

Now, could they be better advertised? Is that flawless? No, but nothing is. But with simple one or two-line messages that "we're on track", or "give us a few more weeks", it should be more than sufficient for you. And I've seen that on their Twitter updates page. Not perfect, but still an excellent way to see that they're working on it.

Daily/weekly bugging is only going to make people mad, cause friction, and a frustrated response like on top which will, obviously, offend some people. But if you want it THAT bad, switch to RHEL, or another Linux flavor, or Windows. The principal of "you get what you pay for" gets blown out of the water with Linux, and by the CentOS team. We have no right to be frustrated if it is not on a schedule we want it to be on, and certainly not if we aren't helping, or even contributing to the slowdown of the release data because of squabbles like this. Sure, I wanted it yesterday. And if I REALLY wanted it yesterday, I'd have paid for RHEL entitlements instead.

Until then, your security fixes are out (except for a few late ones), and 5.4 is syncing to the mirrors. On time. Thanks, CentOS development team...for those who are very grateful for what you do. I'm patiently waiting to see the fine work you've done!

******************************************************************************* Gilbert Sebenste ******** (My opinions only!) ****** *******************************************************************************

On Thu, 15 Oct 2009, Les Mikesell wrote:

But virtually guaranteed for any process that isn't transparent. Someone must enjoy it. Maybe the anticipation is supposed to build up excitement.

Thanks for the jab. It is fun to be punched.

If there were not false steps along any path, one would not mind being watched -- but point release stabilization and testing is an iterative process, finding undocoed dependencies,unexpected failure mode in corner cases, and such.

It is really not something that the 'doers' particularly want to expose to criticism by the 'talkers'. The distraction might be entertaining to the watchers, and provide more opportunities to criticise and comment, but that is about it.

I hereby publicly invite anyone who thinks they want to air all their missteps along the build process forever, for a potential future employer to find via google and so to raise questions about their then abilities [and thus silently be eliminated from consideration from a position], to join the centos-devel mailing list, and run a wholly open parallel build

Or, of course, one could could speak by releasing running code that just works, as CentOS (and SL) does

-- Russ herrold

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Les Mikesell lesmikesell@gmail.com wrote:

It's not fun on the other side of this fence either.  Being kept in the dark makes you imagine all sorts of scary things.

Oh give me a break. The CentOS developers have consistently released a solid distribution. If I have to choose between an arbitrary release date and a rock solid distribution, guess which way I'm going to go.

I really think the best way to approach this -- since it appears to be an issue every time there is a point release -- is to figure eight weeks after the Red Hat release. Then you'll be pleasantly surprised when the release is out sooner than that.

aurfalien@gmail.com wrote:

...

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Les Mikesell lesmikesell@gmail.com wrote:

...

It's not fun on the other side of this fence either. Being kept in the dark makes you imagine all sorts of scary things.

Oh give me a break. The CentOS developers have consistently released a solid distribution. If I have to choose between an arbitrary release date and a rock solid distribution, guess which way I'm going to go.

I really think the best way to approach this -- since it appears to be an issue every time there is a point release -- is to figure eight weeks after the Red Hat release. Then you'll be pleasantly surprised when the release is out sooner than that.

Agreed with Ron.

I used RHEL5.4, broke a bunch of stuff so I switched back to Centos 5,3.

Be specific, what "stuff" broke?

I would almost encourage that Centos waits for RHEL patch release to the kernel before they release it or bugs just get duplicated.

Actually... duplicated bugs is intended.

Or does Centos do that already?

No, CentOS does not apply any patches that upstream doesn't apply.

Glenn

Hi Miguel,

Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately it seems that the 'all or nothing' way of thinking is more common that I expected. Anyone that read my post can see that I did not use 'why is it taking so long?' or similar comments that suggests that I am somewhat angry or anything.

I was just asking for feedback since the last message (from 2 days ago) suggested that it would be quicker than expected but I may be naive and the speed of the synchronization is not what I expected or.... something happened and it will take longer because of that.

I really think that the core developers are doing the best they can but I really feel that the communications area may require more time than the available to prevent my original message (and all the flame war)

I can help with that if I have access to the current state of things.

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 8:07 AM, Miguel Di Ciurcio Filho < miguel@ic.unicamp.br> wrote:

mbneto wrote:

...

Hi,

The last status (from twitter) is 2 days old with the '5.4 is baked! centos internal network will start syncing up today. Release ~ soon!'. Any ETA?

Just relax and wait, this is a _volunteer_ based project. Want a release date? Go pay for RHEL.

---

CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos

On 10/15/2009 07:12 AM, Mathew S. McCarrell wrote:

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 7:45 AM, mbneto <mbneto@gmail.com mailto:mbneto@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

The last status (from twitter) is 2 days old with the '5.4 is baked!
centos internal network will start syncing up today. Release ~
soon!'.   Any ETA?

Soon means soon ... we have to get the tree stable on many servers before we can make it available. This stuff takes time.

You know if this was a new X-Box, or PlayStation, we might be sleeping in a tent next to the front of the store selling them wait for the store to be open. Or sleeping in line at the New Opening Release of Star Wars 12 Return of the O/S... We are all a little bit of a geek and this stuff gets us going. It is new, it is the latest and greatest and the expectation slows down the time line to a crawl, and at times seems like it is going in reverse ( only in our mind )...

People understand that there is a great deal of work going on in the back ground, but again most of us don't have a clue about what is going on or what is needed to put a distribution set out. I'll say it again, for Version 5.5, lets put up a simple page that details ( not in depth ) some of the steps required to publish the distribution. Show the mile markers that we need to achieve and check them off as we get to them. Be like Scotty on Star Trek, "Oh Capitan it will take me 6 months to get the warp engines back on line..." Pad the release time, then do it in three, at that point you are freaking great programmers and surpassed all expectations...

I've worked in distribution sales, and people like to be stroked, even if you have no new information, information is information and they know that something is going on. I fought this for many years, with the answer that... "Hey, nothing new is going on it is the same answer as yesterday.." But by giving out information even if it is the same old information makes everyone feel like they are in the loop.

Here is an example that could have stopped this whole thread...

First Message...

" 5.4 is baked! centos internal network will start syncing up today. release ~ soon!"

Next Message....

"5.4 is still syncing up, this will take some time, but we are moving forward, more information to follow."

It doesn't take much to keep people happy.

As I was typing this, I saw another post which I felt was out of line and harsh, we need to learn to keep egos in check and understand that nothing gets done if we keep attacking the people who are doing the work. They become distracted, and mistakes are more likely to happen. We don't need to know every detail, the basics will do, and what would help is getting a bit more information rather than the silence or when its done message... Again most of this turmoil is due to ignorance on the part of we who don't know how the process works, and a bit of arrogance on the part of those who do know, what we need is more tolerance.

Being a tolerant person to a degree.. Work on keep on a baking and lets cook the heck out of Centos 5.4 I can hardly wait...

John Plemons

Toby Bluhm wrote:

You Centos guys just aren't getting the message are you?

We need to know EXACTLY what is going on with the release! None of this "soon" crap will do. Please post a progress report on packages built, isos transfered, server update progress by region, hours worked, keystrokes typed, bathroom breaks, hours slept, family time taken. Bar charts would be a nice touch. We need to know these things! Our very lives hang upon this release. Strap a wireless webcam to your head for god's sake and broadcast your every move. Verbalized every action. Quit leaving us in the lurch!

I find this message at least rude! Why don't you show the bank transfers to the guys that do this? Also I seriously doubt the need of urgent update if you don't have the money (business) to use the supported and fast developed USV os. All i can say for myself and my ~140 servers (HPC+ others) is "Thank you guys for your sweat and patience"

Adrian Sevcenco wrote:

Toby Bluhm wrote:

...

You Centos guys just aren't getting the message are you?

We need to know EXACTLY what is going on with the release! None of this "soon" crap will do. Please post a progress report on packages built, isos transfered, server update progress by region, hours worked, keystrokes typed, bathroom breaks, hours slept, family time taken. Bar charts would be a nice touch. We need to know these things! Our very lives hang upon this release. Strap a wireless webcam to your head for god's sake and broadcast your every move. Verbalized every action. Quit leaving us in the lurch!

I find this message at least rude!

...

free to a good home, one sense of humor.

On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 14:28:11 +0100 "Marcelo M. Garcia" marcelo.maia.garcia@googlemail.com wrote:

Toby Bluhm wrote:

...

You Centos guys just aren't getting the message are you?

We need to know EXACTLY what is going on with the release! None of this "soon" crap will do. Please post a progress report on packages built, isos transfered, server update progress by region, hours worked, keystrokes typed, bathroom breaks, hours slept, family time taken. Bar charts would be a nice touch. We need to know these things! Our very lives hang upon this release. Strap a wireless webcam to your head for god's sake and broadcast your every move. Verbalized every action. Quit leaving us in the lurch!

Thank you

Hey!!!

Calm down dude. "Just take it easy man", go and what some Big Lebowski.

mg.

---

CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos

Do you really doesn't sense the sarcasm in this post ?

Nicolas Thierry-Mieg wrote:

Marcelo M. Garcia wrote:

...

Toby Bluhm wrote:

...

You Centos guys just aren't getting the message are you?

We need to know EXACTLY what is going on with the release! None of this "soon" crap will do. Please post a progress report on packages built, isos transfered, server update progress by region, hours worked, keystrokes typed, bathroom breaks, hours slept, family time taken. Bar charts would be a nice touch. We need to know these things! Our very lives hang upon this release. Strap a wireless webcam to your head for god's sake and broadcast your every move. Verbalized every action. Quit leaving us in the lurch!

Thank you

Hey!!!

Calm down dude. "Just take it easy man", go and what some Big Lebowski.

lol! can't believe some people took Toby's post seriously :-D strapped wireless webcam? come on!

You never know these days. You can expecting everything.

mg.

Marcelo M. Garcia wrote:

Toby Bluhm wrote:

...

You Centos guys just aren't getting the message are you?

We need to know EXACTLY what is going on with the release! None of this "soon" crap will do. Please post a progress report on packages built, isos transfered, server update progress by region, hours worked, keystrokes typed, bathroom breaks, hours slept, family time taken. Bar charts would be a nice touch. We need to know these things! Our very lives hang upon this release. Strap a wireless webcam to your head for god's sake and broadcast your every move. Verbalized every action. Quit leaving us in the lurch!

Thank you

Hey!!!

Calm down dude. "Just take it easy man", go and what some Big Lebowski.

Someone is obviously sarcasm-challenged today. But there is a middle ground for people who would like a best-effort idea of what to expect.

R P Herrold wrote:

On Fri, 16 Oct 2009, Les Mikesell wrote:

...

Someone is obviously sarcasm-challenged today. But there is a middle ground for people who would like a best-effort idea of what to expect.

and 'best-efforts' is a SLA concept -- if an SLA is needed, you already know the answer

It's also the sort of thing people in a community try to do for each other without needing legal terms for enforcement.

R P Herrold wrote:

...

...

and 'best-efforts' is a SLA concept -- if an SLA is needed, you already know the answer

...

It's also the sort of thing people in a community try to do for each other without needing legal terms for enforcement.

You raise a new argument, an orthogonal strawman, as is your wont, switching to 'try to do' -- I'll close the old one first.

No, I've only had one all along, although perhaps it was misunderstood. That is, that there are many people using CentOS in roles where being able to plan ahead is helpful. All of them almost certainly have real world experience and know that plans don't always work out, but having some idea of what to expect is better than none.

'best efforts' is certainly not something compatible for third-parties to demand in the context of a 'social voluntary' effort using non-paid staffing and absent privity. 'best efforts' may in fact be freely given, but to foster or further an 'expectation mentality' is to deny reality and to set up false expectations.

No one questions your effort on the technical side - or has a right to. Why is it so hard to share what is going on?

On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 09:13:21 -0400 Toby Bluhm tkb@alltechmedusa.com wrote:

You Centos guys just aren't getting the message are you?

We need to know EXACTLY what is going on with the release! None of this "soon" crap will do. Please post a progress report on packages built, isos transfered, server update progress by region, hours worked, keystrokes typed, bathroom breaks, hours slept, family time taken. Bar charts would be a nice touch. We need to know these things! Our very lives hang upon this release. Strap a wireless webcam to your head for god's sake and broadcast your every move. Verbalized every action. Quit leaving us in the lurch!

Thank you

+1

I will not give any money to the Redhat, i want this from you for free :-)

Best regards, Bob

On 16/10/09 14:13, Toby Bluhm wrote:

You Centos guys just aren't getting the message are you?

We need to know EXACTLY what is going on with the release! None of this "soon" crap will do. Please post a progress report on packages built, isos transfered, server update progress by region, hours worked, keystrokes typed, bathroom breaks, hours slept, family time taken. Bar charts would be a nice touch. We need to know these things! Our very lives hang upon this release. Strap a wireless webcam to your head for god's sake and broadcast your every move. Verbalized every action. Quit leaving us in the lurch!

Thank you

[Sarcasm] Good idea! Who wants to chip in and help pay for those web-cams? :D

Lets all buy one web-cam each for them, we'll need something like 200, so that we can have them put, in each corner of their workspace, so we know exactly what their doing, even if it's something we don't want to see them doing at night.

While we're at it, we could also install VNC to their machines so we can watch from their also.

We also need cameras in their kitchen, and local food shops, so we can even see what they eat! [/Sarcasm]

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 5:41 AM, Johnny Hughes johnny@centos.org wrote:

Soon means soon ... we have to get the tree stable on many servers before we can make it available.  This stuff takes time.

Take all the time you need, as always. We all appreciate the great work you folks do, and if anyone doesn't want to wait, there's always Red Hat.

Mark Hull-Richter Expert CentOS/Linux/C Software Developer Registered Linux User #472807 - sign up at http://counter.li.org/