I seem to be having network and email issues tonight; please excuse any duplication
-- Russ herrold
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
HTML dump on Thu Jul 30 00:30:33 EDT 2009 http://www.centos.org/
Open Letter to Lance Davis
July 30, 2009 04:39 UTC
This is an Open Letter to Lance Davis from fellow CentOS Developers It is regrettable that we are forced to send this letter but we are left with no other options. For some time now we have been attempting to resolve these problems:
You seem to have crawled into a hole ... and this is not acceptable.
You have long promised a statement of CentOS project funds; to this date this has not appeared.
You hold sole control of the centos.org domain with no deputy; this is not proper.
You have, it seems, sole 'Founders' rights in the IRC channels with no deputy ; this is not proper.
When I (Russ) try to call the phone numbers for UK Linux, and for you individually, I get a telco intercept 'Lines are temporarily busy' for the last two weeks. Finally yesterday, a voicemail in your voice picked up, and I left a message urgently requesting a reply. Karanbir also reports calling and leaving messages without your reply.
Please do not kill CentOS through your fear of shared management of the project.
Clearly the project dies if all the developers walk away.
Please contact me, or any other signer of this letter at once, to arrange for the required information to keep the project alive at the 'centos.org' domain.
Sincerely, Russ Herrold Ralph Angenendt Karanbir Singh Jim Perrin Donavan Nelson Tim Verhoeven Tru Huynh Johnny Hughes
- ---------------------------------- This document clearsigned with the key indicated and of record at the customary keyservers
See: http://orcorc.blogspot.com/2008/08/gnupg-few-minutes-on-using-detached-and.h...
user: "R P Herrold herrold@owlriver.com" 1024-bit DSA key, ID 9B649644, created 2003-02-09
One of the criticisms I hear the most often about centos is the lack of transparency. This is one of the things that most of ( I can't speak for everyone) the devs agree with, and are working to fix.
If you donate to centos you have a right to know how that money is being used. The donations should shown some level of recognition or appreciation, etc.
I'd personally like to hear what the community has to say about this, as it's not just an internal matter. Please speak up so that we know where the community stands on this. I'd rather be wrong, but know how people feel than take a stand for a community who has other ideas.
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 1:34 AM, R P Herroldherrold@centos.org wrote:
I seem to be having network and email issues tonight; please excuse any duplication
-- Russ herrold
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
HTML dump on Thu Jul 30 00:30:33 EDT 2009 http://www.centos.org/
Open Letter to Lance Davis
July 30, 2009 04:39 UTC
This is an Open Letter to Lance Davis from fellow CentOS Developers It is regrettable that we are forced to send this letter but we are left with no other options. For some time now we have been attempting to resolve these problems:
You seem to have crawled into a hole ... and this is not acceptable.
You have long promised a statement of CentOS project funds; to this date this has not appeared.
You hold sole control of the centos.org domain with no deputy; this is not proper.
You have, it seems, sole 'Founders' rights in the IRC channels with no deputy ; this is not proper.
When I (Russ) try to call the phone numbers for UK Linux, and for you individually, I get a telco intercept 'Lines are temporarily busy' for the last two weeks. Finally yesterday, a voicemail in your voice picked up, and I left a message urgently requesting a reply. Karanbir also reports calling and leaving messages without your reply.
Please do not kill CentOS through your fear of shared management of the project.
Clearly the project dies if all the developers walk away.
Please contact me, or any other signer of this letter at once, to arrange for the required information to keep the project alive at the 'centos.org' domain.
Sincerely, Russ Herrold Ralph Angenendt Karanbir Singh Jim Perrin Donavan Nelson Tim Verhoeven Tru Huynh Johnny Hughes
This document clearsigned with the key indicated and of record at the customary keyservers
See: http://orcorc.blogspot.com/2008/08/gnupg-few-minutes-on-using-detached-and.h...
user: "R P Herrold herrold@owlriver.com" 1024-bit DSA key, ID 9B649644, created 2003-02-09 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
iD8DBQFKcSQKMRh1QZtklkQRAqIFAJ96+UzMm7O0/JanMcYYqnX+UPJhMwCeOoL9 s83yIVHOmbcASgmb4hE8GRY= =2Yg2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
If people want more background information, please read the blogs of some of the developers available at :
That should give everyone a idea of what has happened and where the problems are according to us. But like Jim said, let us know what you feel is important for you.
Regards, Tim
Has Lance responded at all?
If he's disappeared, what's involved in moving the infrastructure? Have any ideas for a new domain been investigated? Presumably you need to build a new charter that doesn't have the weaknesses of the old. How would that work? Will you be modeling the organization after an existing project?
On Thu, 2009-07-30 at 14:49 +0200, Tim Verhoeven wrote:
If people want more background information, please read the blogs of some of the developers available at :
That should give everyone a idea of what has happened and where the problems are according to us. But like Jim said, let us know what you feel is important for you.
---- I think that most of us are unconcerned with the specific aspects of CentOS management and clearly support the ones who appear to do all the work, in this case, the ones who signed this 'open letter'
Perhaps you can just say to Lance, thanks and keep whatever money, just turn over the domain name and then you can get your own paypal & adsense accounts.
Craig
Craig White wrote:
On Thu, 2009-07-30 at 14:49 +0200, Tim Verhoeven wrote:
If people want more background information, please read the blogs of some of the developers available at :
That should give everyone a idea of what has happened and where the problems are according to us. But like Jim said, let us know what you feel is important for you.
I think that most of us are unconcerned with the specific aspects of CentOS management and clearly support the ones who appear to do all the work, in this case, the ones who signed this 'open letter'
Perhaps you can just say to Lance, thanks and keep whatever money, just turn over the domain name and then you can get your own paypal & adsense accounts.
Craig
Indeed, the intellectual property clearly does not reside solely with Lance. Physical property (servers, etc...), I don't know.
To those that have been able to donate money, I would like to say thank you. The project is still alive, so the money must have been used to some extent to support the project.
The open letter seems to be quite measured, intended to bring public notice to Lance and inform the community at large. The letter also proves that the project has a level of administrative self-correction and accountability - this is a good thing.
Perhaps if a couple of the principals of the project live in close proximity to Lance, a *non-confrontational* knock on his door, followed by a face-to-face meeting would resolve most issues. Perhaps not.
I would also like to take this opportunity to thank all the developers and participants involved in making the CentOS distro what it is. I trust the current administrative issues will be resolved quickly.
Thanks again,
Monty
-----Original Message----- From: centos-bounces@centos.org [mailto:centos-bounces@centos.org] On Behalf Of Monty Shinn Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 10:11 To: CentOS mailing list Subject: Re: [CentOS] Open Letter to Lance Davis
Craig White wrote:
On Thu, 2009-07-30 at 14:49 +0200, Tim Verhoeven wrote:
If people want more background information, please read
the blogs of
some of the developers available at :
That should give everyone a idea of what has happened and
where the
problems are according to us. But like Jim said, let us
know what you
feel is important for you.
I think that most of us are unconcerned with the specific
aspects of
CentOS management and clearly support the ones who appear to do all the work, in this case, the ones who signed this 'open letter'
Perhaps you can just say to Lance, thanks and keep whatever money, just turn over the domain name and then you can get your
own paypal &
adsense accounts.
Craig
Indeed, the intellectual property clearly does not reside solely with Lance. Physical property (servers, etc...), I don't know.
To those that have been able to donate money, I would like to say thank you. The project is still alive, so the money must have been used to some extent to support the project.
The open letter seems to be quite measured, intended to bring public notice to Lance and inform the community at large. The letter also proves that the project has a level of administrative self-correction and accountability - this is a good thing.
Perhaps if a couple of the principals of the project live in close proximity to Lance, a *non-confrontational* knock on his door, followed by a face-to-face meeting would resolve most issues. Perhaps not.
I noticed the domain is registered with tucows, I have before delt with situations like this where the authorized domain contact had seperated from the organization and refused to participate in the update of the authorized contact.
If you keep it at the same registrar and just update the administrator contact it gets pretty easy.
Is the centos organization an US based entity?
I would also like to take this opportunity to thank all the developers and participants involved in making the CentOS distro what it is. I trust the current administrative issues will be resolved quickly.
Thanks again,
Monty _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Let us know how we can help.
-Jason
-- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- - - - Jason Pyeron PD Inc. http://www.pdinc.us - - Principal Consultant 10 West 24th Street #100 - - +1 (443) 269-1555 x333 Baltimore, Maryland 21218 - - - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- This message is copyright PD Inc, subject to license 20080407P00.
On Thu, 30 Jul 2009, Monty Shinn wrote:
To those that have been able to donate money, I would like to say thank you. The project is still alive, so the money must have been used to some extent to support the project.
An accounting would answer that question, wouldn't it?
As the advertisement might say: 'I'm not just a developer at the Hair Club for Men; I'm a donor as well'
I was a donor of a specific pct of my consulting revenues derived due to the project, back to the project early on using the paypal method -=- When no accounting appeared I stopped.
I will start again when we get this sorted.
-- Russ herrold
R P Herrold wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jul 2009, Monty Shinn wrote:
To those that have been able to donate money, I would like to say thank you. The project is still alive, so the money must have been used to some extent to support the project.
An accounting would answer that question, wouldn't it?
As the advertisement might say: 'I'm not just a developer at the Hair Club for Men; I'm a donor as well'
I was a donor of a specific pct of my consulting revenues derived due to the project, back to the project early on using the paypal method -=- When no accounting appeared I stopped.
I will start again when we get this sorted.
Has anyone considered joining forces with Scientific Linux to reduce the workload and give both a more robust infrastructure?
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 08:26:37PM +0200, Ralph Angenendt wrote:
Les Mikesell wrote:
Has anyone considered joining forces with Scientific Linux to reduce the workload and give both a more robust infrastructure?
Yes, but the goals are rather different.
It'd almost be nice to go under the Fedora umbrella, except I doubt Red Hat would approve. :-)
Probalby independant makes the most sense. Infrastructure and core folk are already in place...
Ray
Lots of speculation where little is known. It'd be best to let the team do their thing and not stress. Flooding their channels with concern only makes their jobs harder. It'd be best to hang back, wait to see what happens, and then jump at any opportunity to help when *requested* by the team. Innuendo and gossip only makes the whole community look bad.
Big thanks to all the efforts of everyone involved with this project.
Aaron
On Jul 30, 2009, at 1:32 PM, Ray Van Dolson wrote:
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 08:26:37PM +0200, Ralph Angenendt wrote:
Les Mikesell wrote:
Has anyone considered joining forces with Scientific Linux to reduce the workload and give both a more robust infrastructure?
Yes, but the goals are rather different.
It'd almost be nice to go under the Fedora umbrella, except I doubt Red Hat would approve. :-)
Probalby independant makes the most sense. Infrastructure and core folk are already in place...
Ray _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
On Thu, 30 Jul 2009, Ray Van Dolson wrote:
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 08:26:37PM +0200, Ralph Angenendt wrote:
Les Mikesell wrote:
Has anyone considered joining forces with Scientific Linux to reduce the workload and give both a more robust infrastructure?
Yes, but the goals are rather different.
Not really. Both rebuild RHEL releases. Scientific Linux adds a few things and changes a few things. We also make Scientific Linux Fermi which takes Scientific Linux and adds a few things and changes a few things. There is nothing to say that a base rebuild could be with less changes and thus more Centos like, then use that base for Scientific Linux and Scientific Linux Fermi. This was our design model if we joined Centos.
-Connie Sieh Scientific Linux Co Lead Developer
It'd almost be nice to go under the Fedora umbrella, except I doubt Red Hat would approve. :-)
Probalby independant makes the most sense. Infrastructure and core folk are already in place...
Ray _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
hi Connie,
On 07/30/2009 07:56 PM, Connie Sieh wrote:
Yes, but the goals are rather different.
Not really. Both rebuild RHEL releases. Scientific Linux adds a few things and changes a few things. We also make Scientific Linux Fermi which takes Scientific Linux and adds a few things and changes a few things. There is nothing to say that a base rebuild could be with less changes and thus more Centos like, then use that base for Scientific Linux and Scientific Linux Fermi. This was our design model if we joined Centos.
I've not said anything about the subject as yet really - but thanks for your comments here and I know that pretty much everyone on the CentOS team would agree to reconsidering the issues we spoke about a long time back and to see if and how the projects might be able to work closer in the future.
However, the one thing that most people seem to be moving on already is the assumption that CentOS is about to go away - which isnt correct at all. For the users, we will make sure that there is as little an impact as possible.
Karanbir Singh wrote:
However, the one thing that most people seem to be moving on already is the assumption that CentOS is about to go away - which isnt correct at all. For the users, we will make sure that there is as little an impact as possible.
As a user, I've appreciated the long history of CentOS stability and the fact that we haven't even had to think twice about any problems like this before and I don't have many doubts about your ability to keep going now. Still, if there is any way that combining projects could result in more developer time going toward improvements instead of duplicated work and end up with a larger single user community, it would be a good thing.
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Ralph Angenendtra+centos@br-online.de wrote:
Les Mikesell wrote:
Has anyone considered joining forces with Scientific Linux to reduce the workload and give both a more robust infrastructure?
Yes, but the goals are rather different.
What is the most significant difference in the goals?
kind regards/ldv
Ralph Angenendt wrote:
Les Mikesell wrote:
Has anyone considered joining forces with Scientific Linux to reduce the workload and give both a more robust infrastructure?
Yes, but the goals are rather different.
I thought both had upstream compatibility as the main goal - and both seem competent enough that I wouldn't expect many problems in this regard. SL also claims a secondary goal of making site customization easy - perhaps Centos as we know it could simply be one of those customizations and going forward other variations would be easy. If the people doing the work aren't getting any value out of the brand name, I don't see the point of fragmenting the user community for what is essentially the same thing.
On Thu, 30 Jul 2009, Les Mikesell wrote:
Ralph Angenendt wrote:
Les Mikesell wrote:
Has anyone considered joining forces with Scientific Linux to reduce the workload and give both a more robust infrastructure?
Yes, but the goals are rather different.
I thought both had upstream compatibility as the main goal - and both seem competent enough that I wouldn't expect many problems in this regard. SL also claims a secondary goal of making site customization easy - perhaps Centos as we know it could simply be one of those customizations and going forward other variations would be easy. If the people doing the work aren't getting any value out of the brand name, I don't see the point of fragmenting the user community for what is essentially the same thing.
I was expecting it to be the other way around. With Centos the base and SL a site(or something like it). In RHEL 6 I expect the distro rebuild tools to make sites easier. This comment is based on the distro rebuild tools in Fedora. We built a custom Fedora 10 to test this idea. These are pungi, revisor and the iso image tool(forgot its name).
-Connie Sieh
--
Les Mikesell lesmikesell@gmail.com _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Connie Sieh wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jul 2009, Les Mikesell wrote:
Ralph Angenendt wrote:
Les Mikesell wrote:
Has anyone considered joining forces with Scientific Linux to reduce the workload and give both a more robust infrastructure?
Yes, but the goals are rather different.
I thought both had upstream compatibility as the main goal - and both seem competent enough that I wouldn't expect many problems in this regard. SL also claims a secondary goal of making site customization easy - perhaps Centos as we know it could simply be one of those customizations and going forward other variations would be easy. If the people doing the work aren't getting any value out of the brand name, I don't see the point of fragmenting the user community for what is essentially the same thing.
I was expecting it to be the other way around. With Centos the base and SL a site(or something like it). In RHEL 6 I expect the distro rebuild tools to make sites easier. This comment is based on the distro rebuild tools in Fedora. We built a custom Fedora 10 to test this idea. These are pungi, revisor and the iso image tool(forgot its name).
-Connie Sieh
--
Les Mikesell lesmikesell@gmail.c
CentOS and Scientific Linux together would be like dream come true.
Regards
mg.
Marcelo M. Garcia wrote:
Connie Sieh wrote:
Ralph Angenendt wrote:
Les Mikesell wrote:
Has anyone considered joining forces with Scientific Linux to reduce the workload and give both a more robust infrastructure?
Yes, but the goals are rather different.
I thought both had upstream compatibility as the main goal - and both seem competent enough that I wouldn't expect many problems in this regard. SL also claims a secondary goal of making site customization easy - perhaps Centos as we know it could simply be one of those customizations and going forward other variations would be easy. If the people doing the work aren't getting any value out of the brand name, I don't see the point of fragmenting the user community for what is essentially the same thing.
I was expecting it to be the other way around. With Centos the base and SL a site(or something like it). In RHEL 6 I expect the distro rebuild tools to make sites easier. This comment is based on the distro rebuild tools in Fedora. We built a custom Fedora 10 to test this idea. These are pungi, revisor and the iso image tool(forgot its name).
CentOS and Scientific Linux together would be like dream come true.
My 'dream' OS has always been one where the base install was extremely minimal - just enough to install the rest over the network. Then there would be a way that anyone could 'publish' their installed list of repositories and packages and anyone else could duplicate that machine's setup just by picking that list from a set of choices with the installer dealing with the hardware differences for you. This would eliminate most of the need for custom rebuilds and respins - at least for anyone with network access, and in my opinion the optimal combination of many thousands of packages is something that deserves to be be crowdsourced. But, so far no one has done it and whenever the discussion of modified CentOS respins comes up the developers have seemed pretty lukewarm to the idea, as though it would devalue their brand.
Les Mikesell wrote:
Marcelo M. Garcia wrote:
Connie Sieh wrote:
Ralph Angenendt wrote:
Les Mikesell wrote:
Has anyone considered joining forces with Scientific Linux to reduce the workload and give both a more robust infrastructure?
Yes, but the goals are rather different.
I thought both had upstream compatibility as the main goal - and both seem competent enough that I wouldn't expect many problems in this regard. SL also claims a secondary goal of making site customization easy - perhaps Centos as we know it could simply be one of those customizations and going forward other variations would be easy. If the people doing the work aren't getting any value out of the brand name, I don't see the point of fragmenting the user community for what is essentially the same thing.
I was expecting it to be the other way around. With Centos the base and SL a site(or something like it). In RHEL 6 I expect the distro rebuild tools to make sites easier. This comment is based on the distro rebuild tools in Fedora. We built a custom Fedora 10 to test this idea. These are pungi, revisor and the iso image tool(forgot its name).
CentOS and Scientific Linux together would be like dream come true.
My 'dream' OS has always been one where the base install was extremely minimal - just enough to install the rest over the network. Then there would be a way that anyone could 'publish' their installed list of repositories and packages and anyone else could duplicate that machine's setup just by picking that list from a set of choices with the installer dealing with the hardware differences for you. This would eliminate most of the need for custom rebuilds and respins - at least for anyone with network access, and in my opinion the optimal combination of many thousands of packages is something that deserves to be be crowdsourced. But, so far no one has done it and whenever the discussion of modified CentOS respins comes up the developers have seemed pretty lukewarm to the idea, as though it would devalue their brand.
Hi
The idea of a minimal installation is interesting. Could this be done with a kickstart or a installation CD? Then you download/customize with "yum groupinstall <something>".
I think I didn't understand "it would devalue their brand". How could do it if you reaching a wider public, working with more people with (more or less) same goal? I would say "more" than "less". To me, as user, seems that you will your brand more appealing.
Besides, it seems, from the comment about the Fedora 10 tools, that the customization could be easier in RHEL 6.
Regards
mg.
Marcelo M. Garcia wrote:
My 'dream' OS has always been one where the base install was extremely minimal - just enough to install the rest over the network. Then there would be a way that anyone could 'publish' their installed list of repositories and packages and anyone else could duplicate that machine's setup just by picking that list from a set of choices with the installer dealing with the hardware differences for you. This would eliminate most of the need for custom rebuilds and respins - at least for anyone with network access, and in my opinion the optimal combination of many thousands of packages is something that deserves to be be crowdsourced. But, so far no one has done it and whenever the discussion of modified CentOS respins comes up the developers have seemed pretty lukewarm to the idea, as though it would devalue their brand.
Hi
The idea of a minimal installation is interesting. Could this be done with a kickstart or a installation CD? Then you download/customize with "yum groupinstall <something>".
Sure - anything that gets you to the point of being able to run yum with disk and network access. But there is a little more to what I want than a "yum groupinstall" can currently handle. I'd like anyone with a configuration that they think is worth duplicating/sharing to be able to upload both their repository configuration and their installed package list to either a public or local server where that configuration would be saved with a unique ID, description, and author listing (and perhaps allow for user rating/comments). Then anyone else should be able to give some command to update to match any of the ID's they want. There are probably some hardware-related packages that would need special consideration in this scheme, but the worst part is that different repositories exist with different but same-named packages and yum can't even keep this straight when updating the original machine much less reproduce it on another one.
I think I didn't understand "it would devalue their brand". How could do it if you reaching a wider public, working with more people with (more or less) same goal? I would say "more" than "less". To me, as user, seems that you will your brand more appealing.
The discussion was not about the scheme I'm describing, but generally in the context of either making a distro that wouldn't be called CentOS or one that had the Centos branding but modified content. If I recall correctly, the former was grudgingly permitted but no help or advice offered, and latter was not permitted or at least highly discouraged unless it was a strict superset of the stock distro so problems related to the modifications don't affect CentOS's reputation. Personally I've always preferred to install from the k12ltsp respin which is a fairly strict superset with a lot of useful additions. However, it's not clear where that project is headed with the incorporation of part of its content into fedora packaging (but probably not others like the push-button commands to get flash, Sun java, realplayer, MS fonts,etc.).
Besides, it seems, from the comment about the Fedora 10 tools, that the customization could be easier in RHEL 6.
Yes, that will be a possibility, but building a million iso images that are out of date the next day and still won't have the exact setup you want just seems like the wrong approach. What we need is one thing that handles hardware differences (and might also fix things up if you move a disk from one machine to another or restore a backup on a new machine) and another thing that can save and re-install lists of packages repeatably even if the repositories won't cooperate with their package names. The rest would happen by itself as people came up with interesting combinations of packages tuned to different purposes and optimized for different types of hardware.
-- Les Mikesell lesmikesell@gmail.com
On Fri, 2009-07-31 at 15:01 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
<snip>
The idea of a minimal installation is interesting. Could this be done
<snip>
Les Mikesell lesmikesell@gmail.com
In spite of the fact that all thse ideas for what the new CentOS org could or would do, they really don't belong cluttering a thread of serious import about the organization/personnel issues.
Many who've added to this clutter have, in the past, complained about others hi-jacking a thread. Although I understand how these things mutate, if we really want a good discussion to appear in the archives, these suggestions should be in their own thread. Maybe eventually as an open item in a (future) bugzilla.
I would rather be reading and possibly contributing some thoughts about the issue the thread was intended to address. It's an important topic for the missing person, the currently active project member and the community as a whole. Let's see if we can, from here forward, do the impossible - stay on topic.
In good cheer and MHO
William L. Maltby wrote:
On Fri, 2009-07-31 at 15:01 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
<snip>
The idea of a minimal installation is interesting. Could this be done
<snip>
In spite of the fact that all thse ideas for what the new CentOS org could or would do, they really don't belong cluttering a thread of serious import about the organization/personnel issues.
That's somewhat a difference of opinion. As much as I appreciate the past stability of CentOS, I see moving to Scientific Linux as a perfectly reasonable thing to do, with more than a little connection to this topic. And merging the projects seems even more reasonable, from an outside point of view.
Many who've added to this clutter have, in the past, complained about others hi-jacking a thread. Although I understand how these things mutate, if we really want a good discussion to appear in the archives, these suggestions should be in their own thread. Maybe eventually as an open item in a (future) bugzilla.
I would rather be reading and possibly contributing some thoughts about the issue the thread was intended to address. It's an important topic for the missing person, the currently active project member and the community as a whole. Let's see if we can, from here forward, do the impossible - stay on topic.
It's a bigger issue than dealing with a missing person. While I have no complaints about the product and highly respect the developers for their competence and dedication, the project doesn't have the kind of transparency and community involvement that gives you faith that it can survive more than a few personnel problems. I'm already hearing rumblings about risks from others in the company who don't know much about the situation but know we are using Centos and saw a news posting somewhere - and I suspect that is happening in every large company.
I'm already hearing rumblings about risks from others in the company who don't know much about the situation but know we are using Centos and saw a news posting somewhere - and I suspect that is happening in every large company.
No doubt. And if the people who mange the CentOS servers in their organization are doing their job, the people who pay the cheques are being made aware of the situation, what the organization's options are, and what costs are associated with each option.
Among those options, and this is our organization's fall back, is to pay for a subscription to access the upstream vendor's support system for package updates.
On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 10:36:51 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote: [....]
My 'dream' OS has always been one where the base install was extremely minimal - just enough to install the rest over the network. Then there would be a way that anyone could 'publish' their installed list of repositories and packages and anyone else could duplicate that machine's setup just by picking that list from a set of choices with the installer dealing with the hardware differences for you. This would eliminate most of the need for custom rebuilds and respins - at least for anyone with network access, and in my opinion the optimal combination of many thousands of packages is something that deserves to be be crowdsourced.
But, so far no one has done it and whenever the discussion of modified CentOS respins comes up the developers have seemed pretty lukewarm to the idea, as though it would devalue their brand.
Such an OS, or release of an OS, would be mighty welcome to those of us with early notebooks/netbooks/whatever (such as the EeePC 701).
Hi,
My 'dream' OS has always been one where the base install was extremely minimal - just enough to install the rest over the network. Then there would be a way that anyone could 'publish' their installed list of repositories and packages and anyone else could duplicate that machine's setup just by picking that list from a set of choices with the installer dealing with the hardware differences for you. This would eliminate most of the need for custom rebuilds and respins - at least for anyone with network access, and in my opinion the optimal combination of many thousands of packages is something that deserves to be be crowdsourced.
But, so far no one has done it and whenever the discussion of modified CentOS respins comes up the developers have seemed pretty lukewarm to the idea, as though it would devalue their brand.
Such an OS, or release of an OS, would be mighty welcome to those of us with early notebooks/netbooks/whatever (such as the EeePC 701).
Re-Spins are yet possible. You can take a look at the LiveCD project:
https://projects.centos.org/trac/livecd/
to learn how to spin a custom CentOS LiveCD.
But please note: CentOS itself has a clear strategy which means upstream compatibility. Nothing more and nothing less. No focus on specialized systems (which does not mean you can create a custom spin for an specific purpose, e.g. a CentOS netbook spin)
IMHO CentOS is not the best choice for latest consumer hardware nor the best desktop OS (please don't blame me for that Dag ;)
Fedora already offers a lot of spins for different (end)use(r) cases.
Best Regards Marcus
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 1:12 PM, Marcus Moellermail@marcus-moeller.de wrote:
But please note: CentOS itself has a clear strategy which means upstream compatibility. Nothing more and nothing less. No focus on specialized systems (which does not mean you can create a custom spin for an specific purpose, e.g. a CentOS netbook spin)
This is one of the reasons I chose CentOS -- specifically because it is a Red Hat "rebuild" with upstream compatibility. Although, in my opinion, CentOS stands on its own -- I figured it was a plus that while I was learning CentOS I was also learning Red Hat. I first found CentOS via Trixbox and asterisk (I'm a Nortel phone tech with interest in asterisk). As it turns out a career change may be forced on me -- so I'm now studying to take the Red Hat Technician (or Engineering) certification exams to augment my resume. It has been a huge head start to have been using "Red Hat" for the past year and a half.
So, I guess, this is just a vote for keeping CentOS "as is." Although I think community rebuild projects would be cool also.
On Fri, 2009-07-31 at 13:55 -0500, Ron Blizzard wrote:
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 1:12 PM, Marcus Moellermail@marcus-moeller.de wrote:
But please note: CentOS itself has a clear strategy which means upstream compatibility. Nothing more and nothing less. No focus on specialized systems (which does not mean you can create a custom spin for an specific purpose, e.g. a CentOS netbook spin)
This is one of the reasons I chose CentOS -- specifically because it is a Red Hat "rebuild" with upstream compatibility. Although, in my opinion, CentOS stands on its own -- I figured it was a plus that while I was learning CentOS I was also learning Red Hat. I first found CentOS via Trixbox and asterisk (I'm a Nortel phone tech with interest in asterisk). As it turns out a career change may be forced on me -- so I'm now studying to take the Red Hat Technician (or Engineering) certification exams to augment my resume. It has been a huge head start to have been using "Red Hat" for the past year and a half.
So, I guess, this is just a vote for keeping CentOS "as is." Although I think community rebuild projects would be cool also.
Agree.
My customers buy RHEL by the thousands of copies. I use CentOS so that I stay on top of what my customers are experiencing, to test the integration of security tools, and to test various levels of "hardening" guidance. RH, whether or not they know it, has a lot to gain by ensuing that CentOS continues.
Dave
Marcus Moeller wrote:
Hi,
My 'dream' OS has always been one where the base install was extremely minimal - just enough to install the rest over the network. Then there would be a way that anyone could 'publish' their installed list of repositories and packages and anyone else could duplicate that machine's setup just by picking that list from a set of choices with the installer dealing with the hardware differences for you. This would eliminate most of the need for custom rebuilds and respins - at least for anyone with network access, and in my opinion the optimal combination of many thousands of packages is something that deserves to be be crowdsourced. But, so far no one has done it and whenever the discussion of modified CentOS respins comes up the developers have seemed pretty lukewarm to the idea, as though it would devalue their brand.
Such an OS, or release of an OS, would be mighty welcome to thoseof us with early notebooks/netbooks/whatever (such as the EeePC 701).
Re-Spins are yet possible. You can take a look at the LiveCD project:
https://projects.centos.org/trac/livecd/
to learn how to spin a custom CentOS LiveCD.
Sounds like all you folks need to get together, start a "CentOS minimal install CD" SIG and get on with it :)
On 07/31/2009 08:56 PM, Ned Slider wrote:
Sounds like all you folks need to get together, start a "CentOS minimal install CD" SIG and get on with it :)
or a shared editor, and write a kickstart :)
On Fri, 2009-07-31 at 20:56 +0100, Ned Slider wrote:
Marcus Moeller wrote:
Hi,
My 'dream' OS has always been one where the base install was extremely minimal - just enough to install the rest over the network. Then there
...
Sounds like all you folks need to get together, start a "CentOS minimal install CD" SIG and get on with it :)
CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
That would certainly simplify my challenge in building "hardened" baseline loads from which to build other specialized servers.
Dave
Beartooth wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 10:36:51 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote: [....]
My 'dream' OS has always been one where the base install was extremely minimal - just enough to install the rest over the network. Then there would be a way that anyone could 'publish' their installed list of repositories and packages and anyone else could duplicate that machine's setup just by picking that list from a set of choices with the installer dealing with the hardware differences for you. This would eliminate most of the need for custom rebuilds and respins - at least for anyone with network access, and in my opinion the optimal combination of many thousands of packages is something that deserves to be be crowdsourced.
But, so far no one has done it and whenever the discussion of modified CentOS respins comes up the developers have seemed pretty lukewarm to the idea, as though it would devalue their brand.
Such an OS, or release of an OS, would be mighty welcome to those of us with early notebooks/netbooks/whatever (such as the EeePC 701).
A minimal install CD was discussed a while back, but it never got past the discussion stage...
http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos-devel/2008-November/003639.html
On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 15:55:21 +0100 "Marcelo M. Garcia" marcelo.maia.garcia@googlemail.com wrote:
CentOS and Scientific Linux together would be like dream come true.
Everyone has different dreams. :)
On Thu, 30 Jul 2009, Les Mikesell wrote:
R P Herrold wrote:
On Thu, 30 Jul 2009, Monty Shinn wrote:
To those that have been able to donate money, I would like to say thank you. The project is still alive, so the money must have been used to some extent to support the project.
An accounting would answer that question, wouldn't it?
As the advertisement might say: 'I'm not just a developer at the Hair Club for Men; I'm a donor as well'
I was a donor of a specific pct of my consulting revenues derived due to the project, back to the project early on using the paypal method -=- When no accounting appeared I stopped.
I will start again when we get this sorted.
Has anyone considered joining forces with Scientific Linux to reduce the workload and give both a more robust infrastructure?
We welcome help. We have been considering joining Centos on RHEL 6 but the "money" part has always made me uneasy.
-Connie Sieh Scientific Linux Co Lead Developer
-- Les Mikesell lesmikesell@gmail.com _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Craig White schrieb:
Perhaps you can just say to Lance, thanks and keep whatever money, just turn over the domain name and then you can get your own paypal & adsense accounts.
I suspect this is exactly what they are trying to do. Does anybody know where he lives? Can somebody from the UK visit his place on the weekend to see if he's still alive? Maybe not directly confront him. If all else fails, you can still resort to following him on the streets while wearing a pink bunny-suite... ;-)
The uklinux.net domain still contains a real address, that appears to be some sort of business-center with lot's of small companies in one big building: "http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=de&geocode=&q=..."
Rainer
Just to clear on thing up. We tried to contact Lance multiple times over a period of more then a year. We have giving him, behind the scenes, ample time to reply and come clean. This has not happened and that is why we finally after trying to solve it in private for so long decided to go public. He had multiple chances to rectify the situation.
Regards, Tim
At Thu, 30 Jul 2009 16:24:04 +0200 CentOS mailing list centos@centos.org wrote:
Just to clear on thing up. We tried to contact Lance multiple times over a period of more then a year. We have giving him, behind the scenes, ample time to reply and come clean. This has not happened and that is why we finally after trying to solve it in private for so long decided to go public. He had multiple chances to rectify the situation.
I presume that Lance's disappearence is not affecting things like getting updates uploaded to the servers, since there have been updates during the past year or so.
Regards, Tim
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 10:44:54AM -0400, Robert Heller wrote:
At Thu, 30 Jul 2009 16:24:04 +0200 CentOS mailing list centos@centos.org wrote:
Just to clear on thing up. We tried to contact Lance multiple times over a period of more then a year. We have giving him, behind the scenes, ample time to reply and come clean. This has not happened and that is why we finally after trying to solve it in private for so long decided to go public. He had multiple chances to rectify the situation.
I presume that Lance's disappearence is not affecting things like getting updates uploaded to the servers, since there have been updates during the past year or so.
Sounds like it has put a crimp on the flow of donated money and resources however... which certainly would have an effect.
Ray
On Thu, 2009-07-30 at 16:18 +0200, Rainer Duffner wrote:
Craig White schrieb:
Perhaps you can just say to Lance, thanks and keep whatever money, just turn over the domain name and then you can get your own paypal & adsense accounts.
I suspect this is exactly what they are trying to do. Does anybody know where he lives? Can somebody from the UK visit his place on the weekend to see if he's still alive? Maybe not directly confront him. If all else fails, you can still resort to following him on the streets while wearing a pink bunny-suite... ;-)
---- I think that this has merit. Some people can ignore phone calls and e-mails but a personal visit is impossible to ignore. I don't think the pink bunny suit is needed (unless of course, you happen to be a female 'furry')
Craig
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 07:41:29AM -0700, Craig White wrote:
On Thu, 2009-07-30 at 16:18 +0200, Rainer Duffner wrote:
Craig White schrieb:
Perhaps you can just say to Lance, thanks and keep whatever money, just turn over the domain name and then you can get your own paypal & adsense accounts.
I suspect this is exactly what they are trying to do. Does anybody know where he lives? Can somebody from the UK visit his place on the weekend to see if he's still alive? Maybe not directly confront him. If all else fails, you can still resort to following him on the streets while wearing a pink bunny-suite... ;-)
I think that this has merit. Some people can ignore phone calls and e-mails but a personal visit is impossible to ignore. I don't think the pink bunny suit is needed (unless of course, you happen to be a female 'furry')
Actually, the most simple explanation would be that he got terribly ill or even dead.
If he can't be contacted, maybe a contingency plan should be formed: CentOS-NG ?
Not really a fork if everyone moves to it...
Rui
--
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 08:29:14PM +0200, Ralph Angenendt wrote:
Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote:
Actually, the most simple explanation would be that he got terribly ill or even dead.
This has been completely ruled out. We wouldn't have written an open letter, then.
Ok, best of luck for solving this issue, for what I wish :)
Rui
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 2:40 PM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabrarms@1407.org wrote:
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 08:29:14PM +0200, Ralph Angenendt wrote:
Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote:
Actually, the most simple explanation would be that he got terribly ill or even dead.
This has been completely ruled out. We wouldn't have written an open letter, then.
Ok, best of luck for solving this issue, for what I wish :)
Rui _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
read this: http://dag.wieers.com/blog/the-burden-of-keeping-things-private
http://dag.wieers.com/blog/the-burden-of-keeping-things-private
That posting states: I heard some vague numbers, likely in the 4 digits EUR range per month but real figures are only known by one person.
For at least three years people were donating money and sponsors were paying for website ads while the money was not flowing into the project, where it went to I can only guess.
If this is true, it means the people donating to this project have been ripped off.
Can someone confirm this?
Neil
-- Neil Aggarwal, (281)846-8957, www.JAMMConsulting.com Will your e-commerce site go offline if you have a DB server failure, fiber cut, flood, fire, or other disaster? If so, ask about our geographically redundant database system.
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 04:32:39PM -0500, Neil Aggarwal wrote:
Can someone confirm this?
Isn't that part of what this is all about? Lack of dilligence on financial disclosure? If anyone was able to confirm or deny the cited amount, or hell, *any* amount, wouldn't this all just be a moot point?
Before worrying about being "ripped off" why not just wait and see what transpires over the next few days or weeks?
John
Am 30.07.2009 um 23:32 schrieb Neil Aggarwal:
http://dag.wieers.com/blog/the-burden-of-keeping-things-private
That posting states: I heard some vague numbers, likely in the 4 digits EUR range per month but real figures are only known by one person.
For at least three years people were donating money and sponsors were paying for website ads while the money was not flowing into the project, where it went to I can only guess.
If this is true, it means the people donating to this project have been ripped off.
Can someone confirm this?
What - the statement on Dag's website or your assumption? ;-)
Rip-off is a harsh word. Ok, so I donated nothing so far, but still, this is a bit unfair to the rest of the team who are (now) scrambling to get their act together.
A case could be made wether it was negligent to leave that matter hanging for so long - but I'm glad that the rest of the CentOS team is - at least publicly - not fuming with hate and anger but rather looking forward.
"Don't cry over spit milk" ;-)
Rainer
Rip-off is a harsh word.
Maybe, but it seems to accurately describe the situation as it is coming out.
"Don't cry over spit milk"
The problem is this situation is erroding the trust in this project.
To me, the larger problem is the fact that the rest of the team kept it under wraps for so long. That immediately begs the question of what else they are hiding or potentially will hide in the future.
The reason stated was that it would make the project "look bad". What happens if they discover something else that would make the project "look bad"? Would they try to hide that too?
Neil
-- Neil Aggarwal, (281)846-8957, www.JAMMConsulting.com Will your e-commerce site go offline if you have a DB server failure, fiber cut, flood, fire, or other disaster? If so, ask about our geographically redundant database system.
Am Freitag, den 31.07.2009, 00:08 +0200 schrieb Neil Aggarwal:
Rip-off is a harsh word.
Maybe, but it seems to accurately describe the situation as it is coming out.
"Don't cry over spit milk"
The problem is this situation is erroding the trust in this project.
To me, the larger problem is the fact that the rest of the team kept it under wraps for so long. That immediately begs the question of what else they are hiding or potentially will hide in the future.
The reason stated was that it would make the project "look bad". What happens if they discover something else that would make the project "look bad"? Would they try to hide that too?
Neil
Don't panic! The fact the developers finally went public should raise your trust in them not lower it. I think you are overreacting. Actually if you really care about it much you could have sensed this thing coming up earlier.
financial.com AG
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Neil Aggarwal wrote:
Rip-off is a harsh word.
Maybe, but it seems to accurately describe the situation as it is coming out.
This is potentially true, that some of the developers, who would use the money in question to attend meetings or obtain hardware or software (since we have never been directly compensated for working in CentOS), might have to figure out another way to pay for said items.
"Don't cry over spit milk"
The problem is this situation is erroding the trust in this project.
Why ... we are under no obligation to tell people how how we spend monies. There are costs that are incurred for any organization. We are probably going to disclose how monies are spent in the future because we choose to. If you run a private organization, must you tell me how you spend your money? You get an OS and can chose to donate monies or not.
There was an initial out lay of time, effort, infrastructure, etc. made by several people to get CentOS off the ground.
What the developers expected, and what might certainly still be the case is that there is an account with monies that exists.
None of what we are talking about affects the distribution of CentOS. It effects who we might send to Linux meetings, what advertisements the organization might pay for in a magazine, which of the developers may or may not be compensated (none of the developers have ever been directly compensated in the past, that may or may not be true in the future).
Lance did a lot of things for this Project early in it's inception and he deserves to be compensated for his actions and work. He has not done much for the organization in the last few years, and he needs to provide some information to the other people in the organization.
He also, IMHO, needs to turn over several things to a group of people so that we can manage it more openly and have several people involved more in the day to day operations of that part of the organization.
To me, the larger problem is the fact that the rest of the team kept it under wraps for so long. That immediately begs the question of what else they are hiding or potentially will hide in the future.
We are hiding nothing ... why exactly does CentOS need to provide that information to you?
The reason stated was that it would make the project "look bad". What happens if they discover something else that would make the project "look bad"? Would they try to hide that too?
We were not then and not now hiding anything. It is purely and internal matter as to how some things need to be controlled. If the CentOS.org domain where not involved, then most if this would be being handled privately among the developers/primary officers.
Neil
Thanks, Johnny Hughes
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 6:47 PM, Johnny Hughesjohnny@centos.org wrote:
The problem is this situation is erroding the trust in this project.
This goes back to my original post in this thread about transparency in the project. I don't see it as erroding the trust, but it's not building any good will either.
Why ... we are under no obligation to tell people how how we spend monies. There are costs that are incurred for any organization. We are probably going to disclose how monies are spent in the future because we choose to. If you run a private organization, must you tell me how you spend your money? You get an OS and can chose to donate monies or not.
We're not under any obligation to tell people how the money gets spent, but doing so certainly goes a long way building good will. In my opinion, a simple 'We got X monies in donations which were used to purchase dedicated hosting, bandwidth, and various novelties for booth and show kit' once in a while would do worlds of good for showing people how we use the money they choose to give us.
I don't have any legal obligation to help old ladies cross the street, or rescue cats from trees. It's what you do because you're a good person. Doing this in a community sense is what makes you a good neighbor, and what helps build community reputation.
To me, the larger problem is the fact that the rest of the team kept it under wraps for so long. That immediately begs the question of what else they are hiding or potentially will hide in the future.
Not all dirty laundry gets aired immediately. There's no reason to tell everything to everyone, and there are a great many people who don't care what happens internally. They just want a solid distro with updates in a timely fashion.
We are hiding nothing ... why exactly does CentOS need to provide that information to you?
We don't *need* to. We should. I feel that the way the situation was handled was the right way. We approached in private first. We approached as a collective group in private. And finally when all else failed to work, action was taken and the issues were made public.
We were not then and not now hiding anything. It is purely and internal matter as to how some things need to be controlled. If the CentOS.org domain where not involved, then most if this would be being handled privately among the developers/primary officers.
Thinking that this is entirely an internal manner is a bit short-sighted. Keeping all the problems internal doesn't solve them. Not to speak for Dag, but judging by his blog reaction to the news, the finance issue and lack of openness is part of what drove his departure. If we move to adopt a slightly more open approach and include more community efforts, I believe that we'll see a great deal of good from it.
It's not that we OWE the community anything. It's that we should do it because it's how we want to be treated, and how we SHOULD deal with them while we participate in the project.
Jim:
We're not under any obligation to tell people how the money gets spent, but doing so certainly goes a long way building good will. In my opinion, a simple 'We got X monies in donations which were used to purchase dedicated hosting, bandwidth, and various novelties for booth and show kit' once in a while would do worlds of good for showing people how we use the money they choose to give us.
I agree with completely!
I feel that the way the situation was handled was the right way. We approached in private first. We approached as a collective group in private. And finally when all else failed to work, action was taken and the issues were made public.
I disagree with you on this. Giving a person years with no movent to resolution is not handling it. That is just pulling the rug over it until is festers into a larger problem.
Thanks, Neil
-- Neil Aggarwal, (281)846-8957, www.JAMMConsulting.com Will your e-commerce site go offline if you have a DB server failure, fiber cut, flood, fire, or other disaster? If so, ask about our geographically redundant database system.
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 5:36 PM, Jim Perrinjperrin@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 6:47 PM, Johnny Hughesjohnny@centos.org wrote:
Why ... we are under no obligation to tell people how how we spend monies. There are costs that are incurred for any organization. We are probably going to disclose how monies are spent in the future because we choose to. If you run a private organization, must you tell me how you spend your money? You get an OS and can chose to donate monies or not.
We're not under any obligation to tell people how the money gets spent, but doing so certainly goes a long way building good will. In my opinion, a simple 'We got X monies in donations which were used to purchase dedicated hosting, bandwidth, and various novelties for booth and show kit' once in a while would do worlds of good for showing people how we use the money they choose to give us.
I don't have any legal obligation to help old ladies cross the street, or rescue cats from trees. It's what you do because you're a good person. Doing this in a community sense is what makes you a good neighbor, and what helps build community reputation.
I have to agree with Jim here. It is not legal obligation or anything. IF I am running a project and ask the community for help and I receive donations (monetary or in the form of thousands of donated hours), I would feel obliged to return back to the community. And in doing so, I would want to disclose everything. Once again, this is not due to any legal requirements but because I would feel the project is no longer my private toy and I owe the community.
We are hiding nothing ... why exactly does CentOS need to provide that information to you?
Thinking that this is entirely an internal manner is a bit short-sighted. Keeping all the problems internal doesn't solve them. Not to speak for Dag, but judging by his blog reaction to the news, the finance issue and lack of openness is part of what drove his departure. If we move to adopt a slightly more open approach and include more community efforts, I believe that we'll see a great deal of good from it.
It's not that we OWE the community anything. It's that we should do it because it's how we want to be treated, and how we SHOULD deal with them while we participate in the project.
I mostly agree with Jim. As I wrote above, if this was my project, I would feel I *owe* the community. But that is strictly my personal feelings. I cannot imagine how I can ever pay back if those who donated their time ask for refund. :)
Akemi
This is becoming FUD.
Obviously the CentOS Distro is not going to go away.
There seems to be some issues between the Founders/Volunteers. However, if you read the messages and the responses, it is very apparent CentOS will continue. At a new domain or the original.
Based on the simple fact that we are at the eve of Blackhat/Vegas, and a rather annoying named exploit was released. And then, "this is important", patched by the Team within a day!
What are you worrying about?
michael...
P.S. IOU, many Beers to all the maintainers and testers.
-----Original Message----- From: centos-bounces@centos.org [mailto:centos-bounces@centos.org]On Behalf Of Akemi Yagi Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 6:28 PM To: CentOS mailing list Subject: Re: [CentOS] Open Letter to Lance Davis
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 5:36 PM, Jim Perrinjperrin@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 6:47 PM, Johnny Hughesjohnny@centos.org wrote:
Why ... we are under no obligation to tell people how how we spend monies. There are costs that are incurred for any organization. We are probably going to disclose how monies are spent in the future because we choose to. If you run a private organization, must you tell me how you spend your money? You get an OS and can chose to donate monies or not.
We're not under any obligation to tell people how the money gets spent, but doing so certainly goes a long way building good will. In my opinion, a simple 'We got X monies in donations which were used to purchase dedicated hosting, bandwidth, and various novelties for booth and show kit' once in a while would do worlds of good for showing people how we use the money they choose to give us.
I don't have any legal obligation to help old ladies cross the street, or rescue cats from trees. It's what you do because you're a good person. Doing this in a community sense is what makes you a good neighbor, and what helps build community reputation.
I have to agree with Jim here. It is not legal obligation or anything. IF I am running a project and ask the community for help and I receive donations (monetary or in the form of thousands of donated hours), I would feel obliged to return back to the community. And in doing so, I would want to disclose everything. Once again, this is not due to any legal requirements but because I would feel the project is no longer my private toy and I owe the community.
We are hiding nothing ... why exactly does CentOS need to provide that information to you?
Thinking that this is entirely an internal manner is a bit short-sighted. Keeping all the problems internal doesn't solve them. Not to speak for Dag, but judging by his blog reaction to the news, the finance issue and lack of openness is part of what drove his departure. If we move to adopt a slightly more open approach and include more community efforts, I believe that we'll see a great deal of good from it.
It's not that we OWE the community anything. It's that we should do it because it's how we want to be treated, and how we SHOULD deal with them while we participate in the project.
I mostly agree with Jim. As I wrote above, if this was my project, I would feel I *owe* the community. But that is strictly my personal feelings. I cannot imagine how I can ever pay back if those who donated their time ask for refund. :)
Akemi
Akemi Yagi wrote:
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 5:36 PM, Jim Perrinjperrin@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 6:47 PM, Johnny Hughesjohnny@centos.org wrote:
Why ... we are under no obligation to tell people how how we spend monies. There are costs that are incurred for any organization. We are probably going to disclose how monies are spent in the future because we choose to. If you run a private organization, must you tell me how you spend your money? You get an OS and can chose to donate monies or not.
We're not under any obligation to tell people how the money gets spent, but doing so certainly goes a long way building good will. In my opinion, a simple 'We got X monies in donations which were used to purchase dedicated hosting, bandwidth, and various novelties for booth and show kit' once in a while would do worlds of good for showing people how we use the money they choose to give us.
I don't have any legal obligation to help old ladies cross the street, or rescue cats from trees. It's what you do because you're a good person. Doing this in a community sense is what makes you a good neighbor, and what helps build community reputation.
I have to agree with Jim here. It is not legal obligation or anything. IF I am running a project and ask the community for help and I receive donations (monetary or in the form of thousands of donated hours), I would feel obliged to return back to the community. And in doing so, I would want to disclose everything. Once again, this is not due to any legal requirements but because I would feel the project is no longer my private toy and I owe the community.
We are hiding nothing ... why exactly does CentOS need to provide that information to you?
Thinking that this is entirely an internal manner is a bit short-sighted. Keeping all the problems internal doesn't solve them. Not to speak for Dag, but judging by his blog reaction to the news, the finance issue and lack of openness is part of what drove his departure. If we move to adopt a slightly more open approach and include more community efforts, I believe that we'll see a great deal of good from it.
It's not that we OWE the community anything. It's that we should do it because it's how we want to be treated, and how we SHOULD deal with them while we participate in the project.
I mostly agree with Jim. As I wrote above, if this was my project, I would feel I *owe* the community. But that is strictly my personal feelings. I cannot imagine how I can ever pay back if those who donated their time ask for refund. :)
Actually, I agree with Jim too :)
We will likely do all or most of these things because we want to do so, but not because we have too.
My point was that we wanted to give someone the benefit of the doubt because we were trying to do right by him too ... now we (as a group) think we need to do something differently, and we will. Regardless of what else we do, we still have to acknowledge that without Lance, there would have been no CentOS at all ... and because of that we probably waited to long to push this issue. However, we did it because of good intentions and hopes of someone doing the right thing, not to hide anything.
On Thu, 2009-07-30 at 21:15 -0500, Johnny Hughes wrote:
Akemi Yagi wrote:
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 5:36 PM, Jim Perrinjperrin@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 6:47 PM, Johnny Hughesjohnny@centos.org wrote:
Why ... we are under no obligation to tell people how how we spend monies. There are costs that are incurred for any organization. We are probably going to disclose how monies are spent in the future because we choose to. If you run a private organization, must you tell me how you spend your money? You get an OS and can chose to donate monies or not.
We're not under any obligation to tell people how the money gets spent, but doing so certainly goes a long way building good will. In my opinion, a simple 'We got X monies in donations which were used to purchase dedicated hosting, bandwidth, and various novelties for booth and show kit' once in a while would do worlds of good for showing people how we use the money they choose to give us.
I don't have any legal obligation to help old ladies cross the street, or rescue cats from trees. It's what you do because you're a good person. Doing this in a community sense is what makes you a good neighbor, and what helps build community reputation.
I have to agree with Jim here. It is not legal obligation or anything. IF I am running a project and ask the community for help and I receive donations (monetary or in the form of thousands of donated hours), I would feel obliged to return back to the community. And in doing so, I would want to disclose everything. Once again, this is not due to any legal requirements but because I would feel the project is no longer my private toy and I owe the community.
We are hiding nothing ... why exactly does CentOS need to provide that information to you?
Thinking that this is entirely an internal manner is a bit short-sighted. Keeping all the problems internal doesn't solve them. Not to speak for Dag, but judging by his blog reaction to the news, the finance issue and lack of openness is part of what drove his departure. If we move to adopt a slightly more open approach and include more community efforts, I believe that we'll see a great deal of good from it.
It's not that we OWE the community anything. It's that we should do it because it's how we want to be treated, and how we SHOULD deal with them while we participate in the project.
I mostly agree with Jim. As I wrote above, if this was my project, I would feel I *owe* the community. But that is strictly my personal feelings. I cannot imagine how I can ever pay back if those who donated their time ask for refund. :)
Actually, I agree with Jim too :)
We will likely do all or most of these things because we want to do so, but not because we have too.
My point was that we wanted to give someone the benefit of the doubt because we were trying to do right by him too ... now we (as a group) think we need to do something differently, and we will. Regardless of what else we do, we still have to acknowledge that without Lance, there would have been no CentOS at all ... and because of that we probably waited to long to push this issue. However, we did it because of good intentions and hopes of someone doing the right thing, not to hide anything.
---- totally agree and just want to add one more thing...I am very happy to see Johnny posting to this list. It has been a long time and I hope you are well.
Craig
On Fri, 2009-07-31 at 06:59 -0700, Craig White wrote:
On Thu, 2009-07-30 at 21:15 -0500, Johnny Hughes wrote:
Akemi Yagi wrote:
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 5:36 PM, Jim Perrinjperrin@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 6:47 PM, Johnny Hughesjohnny@centos.org wrote:
Why ... we are under no obligation to tell people how how we spend monies. There are costs that are incurred for any organization. We are probably going to disclose how monies are spent in the future because we choose to. If you run a private organization, must you tell me how you spend your money? You get an OS and can chose to donate monies or not.
We're not under any obligation to tell people how the money gets spent, but doing so certainly goes a long way building good will. In my opinion, a simple 'We got X monies in donations which were used to purchase dedicated hosting, bandwidth, and various novelties for booth and show kit' once in a while would do worlds of good for showing people how we use the money they choose to give us.
I don't have any legal obligation to help old ladies cross the street, or rescue cats from trees. It's what you do because you're a good person. Doing this in a community sense is what makes you a good neighbor, and what helps build community reputation.
I have to agree with Jim here. It is not legal obligation or anything. IF I am running a project and ask the community for help and I receive donations (monetary or in the form of thousands of donated hours), I would feel obliged to return back to the community. And in doing so, I would want to disclose everything. Once again, this is not due to any legal requirements but because I would feel the project is no longer my private toy and I owe the community.
We are hiding nothing ... why exactly does CentOS need to provide that information to you?
Thinking that this is entirely an internal manner is a bit short-sighted. Keeping all the problems internal doesn't solve them. Not to speak for Dag, but judging by his blog reaction to the news, the finance issue and lack of openness is part of what drove his departure. If we move to adopt a slightly more open approach and include more community efforts, I believe that we'll see a great deal of good from it.
It's not that we OWE the community anything. It's that we should do it because it's how we want to be treated, and how we SHOULD deal with them while we participate in the project.
I mostly agree with Jim. As I wrote above, if this was my project, I would feel I *owe* the community. But that is strictly my personal feelings. I cannot imagine how I can ever pay back if those who donated their time ask for refund. :)
Actually, I agree with Jim too :)
We will likely do all or most of these things because we want to do so, but not because we have too.
My point was that we wanted to give someone the benefit of the doubt because we were trying to do right by him too ... now we (as a group) think we need to do something differently, and we will. Regardless of what else we do, we still have to acknowledge that without Lance, there would have been no CentOS at all ... and because of that we probably waited to long to push this issue. However, we did it because of good intentions and hopes of someone doing the right thing, not to hide anything.
totally agree and just want to add one more thing...I am very happy to see Johnny posting to this list. It has been a long time and I hope you are well.
Craig
+1
Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 8:59 AM, Craig Whitecraigwhite@azapple.com wrote: <snip> t> totally agree and just want to add one more thing...I am very happy to
see Johnny posting to this list. It has been a long time and I hope you are well.
+1 :-) I was planning to begin a new thread, "welcome back Johnny!" until I read Craigs words here. I do not want to hijack this thread, but WELCOME BACK JOHNNY!
On 07/31/2009 02:27 AM, Akemi Yagi wrote:
I don't have any legal obligation to help old ladies cross the street, or rescue cats from trees. It's what you do because you're a good person. Doing this in a community sense is what makes you a good neighbor, and what helps build community reputation.
I have to agree with Jim here. It is not legal obligation or anything.
I believe thats the same point that Johnny was making - these are choices we have, and we would like to do this. So, not because we have to but because we want to.
- KB
On Thu, 2009-07-30 at 20:36 -0400, Jim Perrin wrote:
<snip>
Jim, you're spot-on with all that you posted. Since some don't seem to understand what I think you're leading to, I thought I would chime in.
It's not that we OWE the community anything. It's that we should do it because it's how we want to be treated, and how we SHOULD deal with them while we participate in the project.
And there is good reason for that, other than just a moral view. As I replied to Dag in a post long ago, there is an implied client relationship in these sorts of things _even_if_no_money_change_hands and _even_if_no_contractual_obligations exist.
Projects such as CentOS exist on two basic foundations: trust and reliance (there is a small difference). Trust must exist and each must be able to rely on others. This applies not only *within* the project, but also between the project personnel and the users of the project.
Your "because it's how we want to be treated" sums it up nicely, the "Golden Rule". Each of us wants to be able to trust and be trusted and to rely upon and be relied upon.
Having most actions in public view engenders the feeling of reliability and can demonstrate to others that one (or in this case, the project) is trustworthy. It also permits a feedback from those outside the project itself that might be useful to the project. If one solicits donations, they are (hopefully) more likely to be forthcoming if the potential donor can see what the money is used for, in some detail. Regardless of that, everyone who donates time or money wants to *know* (not just hope or feel) that the contribution was worthwhile and not "frittered away".
Personally, I do not think *everything* at all times must be public. E.g. trying to resolve issues with the unavailability of a key person before bringing the problem public. If the first step were a public one, irreparable harm might be done, in many areas, if it turns out the concerns were unfounded. Or it might make the issue more difficult to resolve because of a concern over "appearances", potential damage to one's ego, reputation, etc.
One of the big failings of various open-source projects has always been the attitude by some members that because the efforts or results are "gratis", there is no obligation undertaken by the project members to the community.
This is patently absurd as such an attitude, if widespread and unchecked, spells certain doom to the project over the long haul.
MHO
Johnny:
we are under no obligation to tell people how how we spend monies
This project asks for donations from the public. Implied in that request is that the money will be used to move the project forward and maybe reward the workers for their contributions. This situation seems like the money is going away without a benefit to the project or the people actually doing the work.
What the developers expected, and what might certainly still be the case is that there is an account with monies that exists.
I hope that is true. The fact that Lance is not being helpful leads to the natural conclusion that it is not likely.
why exactly does CentOS need to provide that information to you?
Normally, you would not. But, when there is a hint of misconduct, people want an explanation.
Neil
-- Neil Aggarwal, (281)846-8957, www.JAMMConsulting.com Will your e-commerce site go offline if you have a DB server failure, fiber cut, flood, fire, or other disaster? If so, ask about our geographically redundant database system.
On Thu, 30 Jul 2009, Rainer Duffner wrote:
Am 30.07.2009 um 23:32 schrieb Neil Aggarwal:
http://dag.wieers.com/blog/the-burden-of-keeping-things-private
That posting states: I heard some vague numbers, likely in the 4 digits EUR range per month but real figures are only known by one person.
For at least three years people were donating money and sponsors were paying for website ads while the money was not flowing into the project, where it went to I can only guess.
If this is true, it means the people donating to this project have been ripped off.
Can someone confirm this?
What - the statement on Dag's website or your assumption? ;-)
Rip-off is a harsh word. Ok, so I donated nothing so far, but still, this is a bit unfair to the rest of the team who are (now) scrambling to get their act together.
To be honest, I didn't feel as strong about the money from the past as I did about the money that was still being made when I found out about this. You cannot turn back time, but you can influence what is happening now. (And for all I know it could be about peanuts as well, as I stated I have no first-hand evidence of how much was being made)
That said, I would have been willing to consider the donated money as some sort of ransom to get the domain, trademark and logo rights back and use that as a new start for the project.
But of course you need Lance for any such deal and that's where I guess the Open Letter comes into play. But this was not the only reason to leave the team, if it was I would have left earlier.
Craig White schrieb:
On Thu, 2009-07-30 at 16:18 +0200, Rainer Duffner wrote:
Craig White schrieb:
Perhaps you can just say to Lance, thanks and keep whatever money, just turn over the domain name and then you can get your own paypal & adsense accounts.
I suspect this is exactly what they are trying to do. Does anybody know where he lives? Can somebody from the UK visit his place on the weekend to see if he's still alive? Maybe not directly confront him. If all else fails, you can still resort to following him on the streets while wearing a pink bunny-suite... ;-)
I think that this has merit. Some people can ignore phone calls and e-mails but a personal visit is impossible to ignore. I don't think the pink bunny suit is needed (unless of course, you happen to be a female 'furry')
For some time, deb-collectors in big German cities employed students who would followed debtors (suspected to still have money but just felt comfortable not to pay) on their way to work, on the subway etc. They wore pink bunny suits. This was ruled illegal, though, same as the the later scheme to employ debt-collectors with big muscles and Russian accent to "persuade" the debtor to pay.
I would really be interested to know what happened, though - and give Mr Davis a chance to present his own version of the events (even if it boils down to "I took the money to save my business" - who is going to throw the first stone anyway?).
I'm glad though, that the remaining project-members continue to run the project as-is.
Rainer
On Thu, 30 Jul 2009, Craig White wrote:
Perhaps you can just say to Lance, thanks and keep whatever money, just turn over the domain name and then you can get your own paypal & adsense accounts.
* chuckle * I will sell you this toll bridge for a great price -- want to know how much it is before you commit to buying it?
-- Russ herrold
On 07/30/2009 02:34 PM, Jim Perrin wrote:
I'd personally like to hear what the community has to say about this, as it's not just an internal matter. Please speak up so that we know where the community stands on this. I'd rather be wrong, but know how people feel than take a stand for a community who has other ideas.
this's not the only thing (but may be one of the most dangerous). i also like to know who are responsible for what is the community?: - who are the centos-3 updates maintainers - who are the centos-4 updates maintainers - who are the centos-5 updates maintainers - who will be the centos-6 maintainers - who are qa team - who are responsible for the centos.org domain and dns (ok lance) - who are responsible for the website, wiki, mailing list - how has root access to the hardware infrastructure and i hope none of the above is a single element set:-)
- what is the hardware infrastructure of centos team - is there any cvs, svn, git for the development why not public - how the release and update build process look like - can we see the build farm status, build logs etc. - what is the qa process
all of these information cab be put up to the wiki in a few hours by those who know the answers.
if these and may be a few other question can be public and clean to the community we can arrange resources and probably can speed up the updates and release process. eg. i'm very interesting how long will it take the 5.4 release (as we all remember how can one man can stop the whole 5.3 release process and no one like to repeat it again).
Sounds to me like Lance, as many in the world, is under heavy financial duress.
I would venture to say that sometime in the past he started borrowing some incoming monies. And then eventually got caught up in it and could not face the music.
I would say, dev team, time to go to plan b with a new site centos.something as a backup. And unfortunately prepare to get that domain back somehow.
This is a bad time and it is not unusual for partners in a business to take the money and run. I would say the money is gone, and I doubt he would have any to repay.
I would offer a deal to let him go his own way without legal issues to get access to the whole shebang again. Its either that or waste a lot of money on a lawyer.
Offer him immunity and get the site back asap. He has, in my guess, fallen badly and is in trouble. Wherever he lives, go check the county records for legal items against him (mortgage, etc)...and that may leave you a clue.
I think I speak for all of us when I say good luck and we are all very worried but believe in all of you.
Best of luck, Bob
some recent comments & speculation border on slander.
slander is simply anything that can lower one's view of a person in another's eye.
the centos team has already done this, yet may i suggest to all that it would be best to give Mr Davis every possible benefit of the doubt.
...and "no matter what" the past or current circumstances in his life are, that it is always best to lend any possible help & lift him up, than to trample him under foot, keyboard, mouth, or weapon.
regardless of your belief system, let's lift the man up in prayer.
:-)
- rh
On 07/30/2009 07:26 PM, thus Robert spake:
some recent comments & speculation border on slander.
slander is simply anything that can lower one's view of a person in another's eye.
the centos team has already done this, yet may i suggest to all that it would be best to give Mr Davis every possible benefit of the doubt.
...and "no matter what" the past or current circumstances in his life are, that it is always best to lend any possible help & lift him up, than to trample him under foot, keyboard, mouth, or weapon.
regardless of your belief system, let's lift the man up in prayer.
:-)
- rh
BTW: cent-os.org was just being registered:
Created On:30-Jul-2009 16:09:28 UTC Last Updated On:30-Jul-2009 16:09:32 UTC Expiration Date:30-Jul-2010 16:09:28 UTC Sponsoring Registrar:Tucows Inc. (R11-LROR) Status:CLIENT TRANSFER PROHIBITED Status:CLIENT UPDATE PROHIBITED Status:TRANSFER PROHIBITED Status:ADDPERIOD Registrant ID:tunjoCySae5zu4SG Registrant Name:Islam Eldib Registrant Organization:dotcommanage.com Registrant Street1:6722 Woodland blvd Registrant Street2: Registrant Street3:6722 Woodland blvd Registrant City:Pinellas Park Registrant State/Province:FL Registrant Postal Code:33781 Registrant Country:US Registrant Phone:+1.7274037221 Registrant Phone Ext.: Registrant FAX: Registrant FAX Ext.: Registrant Email:islam.eldib@gmail.com
(etc.)
Best,
Timo
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 7:34 AM, Jim Perrinjperrin@gmail.com wrote:
I'd personally like to hear what the community has to say about this, as it's not just an internal matter. Please speak up so that we know where the community stands on this. I'd rather be wrong, but know how people feel than take a stand for a community who has other ideas.
Oh... A CentOS disruption, even in name only, would be painful.
gd
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 11:51:19AM -0500, Garry.Dale wrote:
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 7:34 AM, Jim Perrinjperrin@gmail.com wrote:
I'd personally like to hear what the community has to say about this, as it's not just an internal matter. Please speak up so that we know where the community stands on this. I'd rather be wrong, but know how people feel than take a stand for a community who has other ideas.
Oh... A CentOS disruption, even in name only, would be painful.
More painful than loosing the domain because it is not renewed late this year?
From whois centos.org...
Expiration Date:04-Dec-2009 12:28:30 UTC
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Rui
--
-----Original Message----- From: centos-bounces@centos.org [mailto:centos-bounces@centos.org] On Behalf Of Rui Miguel Silva Seabra Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 12:55 To: centos@centos.org Subject: Re: [CentOS] Open Letter to Lance Davis
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 11:51:19AM -0500, Garry.Dale wrote:
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 7:34 AM, Jim
Perrinjperrin@gmail.com wrote:
I'd personally like to hear what the community has to say about this, as it's not just an internal matter. Please speak
up so that
we know where the community stands on this. I'd rather be
wrong, but
know how people feel than take a stand for a community
who has other ideas.
Oh... A CentOS disruption, even in name only, would be painful.
More painful than loosing the domain because it is not renewed late this year?
From whois centos.org...
Expiration Date:04-Dec-2009 12:28:30 UTC ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
As I have said before, I have experience in this matter and we have a current relationship with tucows. Would the team like our help? We can't and won't unless asked.
Rui
-- _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
-Jason Pyeron
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On Thu, 30 Jul 2009, Jason Pyeron wrote:
As I have said before, I have experience in this matter and we have a current relationship with tucows. Would the team like our help? We can't and won't unless asked.
The letter was done in the fashion it was in sorrow, and not in anger, as my blog post noted. We remain hopeful that lance will step up to doing the right thing vis-a-vis the project as to the mentioned items.
-- Russ herrold
The letter was done in the fashion it was in sorrow, and not in anger, as my blog post noted. We remain hopeful that lance will step up to doing the right thing vis-a-vis the project as to the mentioned items.
-- Russ herrold
Russ,
of course... :-(
there is no doubt in my mind that the CentOS team is acting, and will continue to act in as proper manner as possible.
:-)
- rh
*ReCentOS* would work.. *_Re_*introducing _*CentOS*_
john plemons
Garry.Dale wrote:
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 7:34 AM, Jim Perrinjperrin@gmail.com wrote:
I'd personally like to hear what the community has to say about this, as it's not just an internal matter. Please speak up so that we know where the community stands on this. I'd rather be wrong, but know how people feel than take a stand for a community who has other ideas.
Oh... A CentOS disruption, even in name only, would be painful.
gd _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
If possible, maintain the centos name.
Is there a .os tld? cent.os ? :)
Rui
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 12:57:48PM -0400, John Plemons wrote:
*ReCentOS* would work.. *_Re_*introducing _*CentOS*_
john plemons
Garry.Dale wrote:
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 7:34 AM, Jim Perrinjperrin@gmail.com wrote:
I'd personally like to hear what the community has to say about this, as it's not just an internal matter. Please speak up so that we know where the community stands on this. I'd rather be wrong, but know how people feel than take a stand for a community who has other ideas.
Oh... A CentOS disruption, even in name only, would be painful.
gd _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
begin:vcard fn:John Plemons n:Plemons;John org:Electro Mavin adr:;;3460 Highway 11 South;Riceville;TN;37370;USA email;internet:john@mavin.com tel;work:423-746-2846 tel;fax:423-746-2692 tel;home:888-756-2846 url:http://www.mavin.com version:2.1 end:vcard
CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
--
In article 20090730170329.GE4535@roque.1407.org, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra rms@1407.org wrote:
If possible, maintain the centos name.
Is there a .os tld? cent.os ? :)
No:
$ host -tns com. com name server g.gtld-servers.net. com name server h.gtld-servers.net. com name server i.gtld-servers.net. com name server j.gtld-servers.net. com name server k.gtld-servers.net. com name server l.gtld-servers.net. com name server m.gtld-servers.net. com name server a.gtld-servers.net. com name server b.gtld-servers.net. com name server c.gtld-servers.net. com name server d.gtld-servers.net. com name server e.gtld-servers.net. com name server f.gtld-servers.net. $ host -tns os. Host os not found: 3(NXDOMAIN) $
Cheers Tony
applause and kudos to the team! I won't say more, a lot has been said already. I just hope that everything can be sorted out in a manner that doesn't crash too many porcelain and makes all involved parties comfortable in the end.
Kai
On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 22:31:21 +0200 Kai Schaetzl maillists@conactive.com took out a #2 pencil and scribbled:
applause and kudos to the team! I won't say more, a lot has been said already. I just hope that everything can be sorted out in a manner that doesn't crash too many porcelain and makes all involved parties comfortable in the end.
Kai
All of that up there.
On 07/30/2009 06:34 AM, R P Herrold wrote:
This is an Open Letter to Lance Davis from fellow CentOS Developers
People looking for info about this and recent progress will find relevant info being updated on http://www.centos.org/ as things develop.
Karanbir Singh wrote:
On 07/30/2009 06:34 AM, R P Herrold wrote:
This is an Open Letter to Lance Davis from fellow CentOS Developers
People looking for info about this and recent progress will find relevant info being updated on http://www.centos.org/ as things develop.
Well, it looks like the 'mess' is going to evapourate overnight. Bravo! Have you managed to pull Lance out of the depths of despair or something? (You do not have to answer that)
On Sat, 2009-08-01 at 21:50 +0800, Chan Chung Hang Christopher wrote:
Karanbir Singh wrote:
[snip]
People looking for info about this and recent progress will find relevant info being updated on http://www.centos.org/ as things develop.
[snip]
Can we drop this thread now? Please? Bob
-----Original Message----- From: centos-bounces@centos.org [mailto:centos-bounces@centos.org] On Behalf Of Chan Chung Hang Christopher Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 3:51 PM To: CentOS mailing list Subject: Re: [CentOS] Open Letter to Lance Davis
People looking for info about this and recent progress will find relevant info being updated on http://www.centos.org/ as things develop.
Well, it looks like the 'mess' is going to evapourate overnight. Bravo! Have you managed to pull Lance out of the depths of despair or something? (You do not have to answer that)
Nice work! Here's to hoping all FUD will go away shortly!
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 10:46 PM, Karanbir Singhmail-lists@karan.org wrote:
On 07/30/2009 06:34 AM, R P Herrold wrote:
This is an Open Letter to Lance Davis from fellow CentOS Developers
People looking for info about this and recent progress will find relevant info being updated on http://www.centos.org/ as things develop.
Great news! Thanks.
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