I just replaced my fan in my nc2400. It was a 5hour job. Had to pull EVERYTHING to get to where they have the fan in the thing.
Now I want to know if it is working. It is suppose to be thermostatically controlled, and it takes time to heat up.
So how can I find out what Centos knows about the system temp and fan state?
It was hard to tell if I put the connector in the right way. At least if that is all I did wrong, I can get to that connector with only pulling the drive....
Joseph L. Casale wrote:
So how can I find out what Centos knows about the system temp and fan state?
LM_Sensors does this... let me know what you do to get it working on your rig :)
Well, /etc/sysconfig/lm_sensors says to run sensors-detect. I answered yes to every prompt and nothing was found for my system. So now I guess I read man pages and google a bit....
On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 1:40 PM, Robert Moskowitz rgm@htt-consult.com wrote:
I just replaced my fan in my nc2400. It was a 5hour job. Had to pull EVERYTHING to get to where they have the fan in the thing.
Now I want to know if it is working. It is suppose to be thermostatically controlled, and it takes time to heat up.
So how can I find out what Centos knows about the system temp and fan state?
It was hard to tell if I put the connector in the right way. At least if that is all I did wrong, I can get to that connector with only pulling the drive....
No experience with that particular HW, however, I just returned, with my Dell Dimension 2400 box, from a visit to the motherboard repairman. I thought the Exhaust Fan for the CPU was dead (and the motherboard damaged). He told me that when that fan runs, it rotates very slowly (unlike the fan in the PSU) and that it probably doesn't run very often. Each time he touched the Shroud over the CPU, it was very cool. I read something in a forum, that said the CPU temperature can go to 100 C., in a few seconds, but I now wonder if that is true or not. Hopefully, as the previous reply indicated, lm_sensors can tell you what's going on. My box has a new ATX PSU and I'm *very* thankful Dell did not install a proprietary PSU and mobo in this model!
I read something in a forum, that said the CPU temperature can go to 100 C., in a few seconds, but I now wonder if that is true or not.
Yeah, turn on a machine w/o a heatsink :) In a couple of seconds it will get so hot that you can't touch it and the internal safety threshold on the proc will shut it down. I suspect the mobo might have a bios that can control the fan speed and the hysteresis or whatever technique it uses to control reaction time. My Asus has this IIRC...
jlc
Joseph L. Casale wrote:
I read something in a forum, that said the CPU temperature can go to 100 C., in a few seconds, but I now wonder if that is true or not.
Yeah, turn on a machine w/o a heatsink :) In a couple of seconds it will get so hot that you can't touch it and the internal safety threshold on the proc will shut it down. I suspect the mobo might have a bios that can control the fan speed and the hysteresis or whatever technique it uses to control reaction time. My Asus has this IIRC...
the newest Intel chipsets actually have all this built into the ICH9R or whatever, managed by microcode running in the northbridge as a management coprocessor. I forget what Intel 4-letter-acronym this is under. However, this does NOT play well with the legacy LM style way of doing things from the host, and I suspect many of the third party boards continue to use LM or similar sensor chips on the i2c bus, old school, rather than relying on this chipset built-in fan control stuff. I have an Intel branded G33 board (running Windows XP) and none of the usual fan control programs like SpeedFan have a clue how to talk to this stuff. I'll guess without any specific knowlege that Linux lm_sensors will have similar problems.
Intel calls this coprocessor on the Northbridge the Management Engine (ME) and Host Embedded Controller Interface (HECI), and system wide its branded Intel "Quiet System Technology" (QST), which includes the MCH w/ ME, the ME Firmware, and the associated BIOS support. Apparently once configured by the BIOS, this runs without host OS intervention, including monitoring the CPU, northbridge and southbridge thermal sensors, cpu and chassis fan tach sensors and PWM for the respective fans.
On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 6:41 PM, John R Pierce pierce@hogranch.com wrote:
Joseph L. Casale wrote:
<snip>
Yeah, turn on a machine w/o a heatsink :) In a couple of seconds it will get so hot that you can't touch it and the internal safety threshold on the proc will shut it down. I suspect the mobo might have a bios that can control the fan speed and the hysteresis or whatever technique it uses to control reaction time. My Asus has this IIRC...
the newest Intel chipsets actually have all this built into the ICH9R or whatever, managed by microcode running in the northbridge as a management coprocessor. I forget what Intel 4-letter-acronym this is under. However, this does NOT play well with the legacy LM style way of doing things from the host, and I suspect many of the third party boards continue to use LM or similar sensor chips on the i2c bus, old school, rather than relying on this chipset built-in fan control stuff. I have an Intel branded G33 board (running Windows XP) and none of the usual fan control programs like SpeedFan have a clue how to talk to this stuff. I'll guess without any specific knowlege that Linux lm_sensors will have similar problems.
Intel calls this coprocessor on the Northbridge the Management Engine (ME) and Host Embedded Controller Interface (HECI), and system wide its branded Intel "Quiet System Technology" (QST), which includes the MCH w/ ME, the ME Firmware, and the associated BIOS support. Apparently once configured by the BIOS, this runs without host OS intervention, including monitoring the CPU, northbridge and southbridge thermal sensors, cpu and chassis fan tach sensors and PWM for the respective fans.
The HW people are way ahead of the SW people? A good reason not to use the latest motherboards, with this technology, in production servers, at this time?
The HW people are way ahead of the SW people? A good reason not to use the latest motherboards, with this technology, in production servers, at this time?
I thought things have always been like that with Linux?
But maybe the latest kernels have support for that stuff...Intel has been rather good at providing open source drivers for their stuff but they probably work with the mainline kernel.
Lanny Marcus wrote:
The HW people are way ahead of the SW people? A good reason not to use the latest motherboards, with this technology, in production servers, at this time?
actually, that was desktop stuff I described, not server. servers would presumably continue to use IPMI, for which I believe there is linux support..
Am 06.01.2009 um 02:16 schrieb John R Pierce:
Lanny Marcus wrote:
The HW people are way ahead of the SW people? A good reason not to use the latest motherboards, with this technology, in production servers, at this time?
actually, that was desktop stuff I described, not server. servers would presumably continue to use IPMI, for which I believe there is linux support..
Or proprietary stuff (HP, IBM, Delll), with proprietary linux-drivers...
Rainer
On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 8:16 PM, John R Pierce pierce@hogranch.com wrote:
Lanny Marcus wrote:
The HW people are way ahead of the SW people? A good reason not to use the latest motherboards, with this technology, in production servers, at this time?
actually, that was desktop stuff I described, not server. servers would presumably continue to use IPMI, for which I believe there is linux support..
I can't imagine that kind of risk on a Server. Bad on a Desktop, but an unacceptable risk on a Server. Good to know the Server motherboards will continue using IPMI.
Lanny Marcus wrote:
I can't imagine that kind of risk on a Server. Bad on a Desktop, but an unacceptable risk on a Server.
risk? whats risky about the hardware managing the fans without CPU software intervention? If anything thats LESS risky then assuming the OS is properly configured to recognize the system specific fan hardware and will properly react to the particular boards sensor configurations.
John R Pierce wrote:
risk? whats risky about the hardware managing the fans without CPU software intervention? If anything thats LESS risky then assuming the OS is properly configured to recognize the system specific fan hardware and will properly react to the particular boards sensor configurations.
That was exactly my thought too... a fully automated hardware fan/temperature management systems is the way to go.
It would be nice to have a standard way to get readings tho even for desktops/laptops, for your peace of mind :) lm_sensors is often useless, as it either doesn't detect anything or the readings it gets is just nonsense. Updating lm_sensors is not high on the priority list for Red Hat.
Morten Torstensen wrote on Tue, 06 Jan 2009 10:24:29 +0100:
Updating lm_sensors is not high on the priority list for Red Hat.
There are updated packages on ATrpms. But for many newer chipsets you also need an updated kernel or at least a kernel module.
Kai
On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 8:52 PM, John R Pierce pierce@hogranch.com wrote:
Lanny Marcus wrote:
I can't imagine that kind of risk on a Server. Bad on a Desktop, but an unacceptable risk on a Server.
risk? whats risky about the hardware managing the fans without CPU software intervention? If anything thats LESS risky then assuming the OS is properly configured to recognize the system specific fan hardware and will properly react to the particular boards sensor configurations.
I agree with you. Probably much more reliable, for the HW to manage it.
On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 5:05 PM, Joseph L. Casale JCasale@activenetwerx.com wrote:
I read something in a forum, that said the CPU temperature can go to 100 C., in a few seconds, but I now wonder if that is true or not.
Yeah, turn on a machine w/o a heatsink :) In a couple of seconds it will get so hot that you can't touch it and the internal safety threshold on the proc will shut it down. I suspect the mobo might have a bios that can control the fan speed and the hysteresis or whatever technique it uses to control reaction time. My Asus has this IIRC...
I won't take off the heatsink, but now I have a lot of appreciation for the one Dell put onto the CPU in this box. The Shroud was extremely cool, when touched. :-)
Lanny Marcus wrote:
I won't take off the heatsink, but now I have a lot of appreciation for the one Dell put onto the CPU in this box. The Shroud was extremely cool, when touched. :-)
the heatsink shroud is not a good indicator, you'd want to get a finger on the metal heatsink itself, preferably as close to the base as possible.
Lanny Marcus wrote:
On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 1:40 PM, Robert Moskowitz rgm@htt-consult.com wrote:
I just replaced my fan in my nc2400. It was a 5hour job. Had to pull EVERYTHING to get to where they have the fan in the thing.
Now I want to know if it is working. It is suppose to be thermostatically controlled, and it takes time to heat up.
So how can I find out what Centos knows about the system temp and fan state?
It was hard to tell if I put the connector in the right way. At least if that is all I did wrong, I can get to that connector with only pulling the drive....
No experience with that particular HW, however, I just returned, with my Dell Dimension 2400 box, from a visit to the motherboard repairman. I thought the Exhaust Fan for the CPU was dead (and the motherboard damaged). He told me that when that fan runs, it rotates very slowly (unlike the fan in the PSU) and that it probably doesn't run very often.
I have been listening to my fan dying. Getting louder all the time (shot bearings or bushing or whatever it has). So I know that my old was turned.
And the unit ran hot.
Now with the new fan in, it is not turning at all, but the unit is actually cooler than before, but still hot to touch. Could be better contact with the heatsink.
Either I put the power connector on backwards (the manual's pic is not clear on this, but I don't know if that connector CAN be put on backwards), or there is something with the bios with this new fan...
Either I put the power connector on backwards (the manual's pic is not clear on this, but I don't know if that connector CAN be put on backwards), or there is something with the bios with this new fan...
Is not there a plastic guide on the three pin connector?
I wonder if upgrading the lm_sensors package would mean you being able to read fan speed/stuff...
Christopher Chan wrote:
Either I put the power connector on backwards (the manual's pic is not clear on this, but I don't know if that connector CAN be put on backwards), or there is something with the bios with this new fan...
Is not there a plastic guide on the three pin connector?
It is a 4-pin connector, and I think there is a guide, or one side is different than the other. That is why I think I could not have but in in backwards.
I wonder if upgrading the lm_sensors package would mean you being able to read fan speed/stuff...
To what from where?
Robert Moskowitz wrote:
Christopher Chan wrote:
Either I put the power connector on backwards (the manual's pic is not clear on this, but I don't know if that connector CAN be put on backwards), or there is something with the bios with this new fan...
Is not there a plastic guide on the three pin connector?
It is a 4-pin connector, and I think there is a guide, or one side is different than the other. That is why I think I could not have but in in backwards.
Okay, not the stuff you get on boards that are not 'branded'.
I wonder if upgrading the lm_sensors package would mean you being able to read fan speed/stuff...
To what from where?
Centos 5 comes with lm_sensors 2.1...but the latest lm_sensors is up to 3.0 now. I doubt RH will come out with 3.0 for RHEL5...so...it is kinda hard to answer 'from where?'
Christopher Chan wrote:
It is a 4-pin connector, and I think there is a guide, or one side is different than the other. That is why I think I could not have but in in backwards.
Okay, not the stuff you get on boards that are not 'branded'.
MANY newer desktop CPU fans are 4 pin... this way there is power, tach output and PWM control on separate pins (and ground).... doing PWM speed modulation on a 3 pin fan makes reading the tach kind of hard.
but, as you noticed, we are dealing with a HP NC2400 laptop here. http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF06a/321957-321957-64295-321838-306...
On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 7:39 PM, Robert Moskowitz rgm@htt-consult.com wrote:
I just replaced my fan in my nc2400. It was a 5hour job. Had to pull
<snip>
So how can I find out what Centos knows about the system temp and fan state?
<snip>
Now with the new fan in, it is not turning at all, but the unit is actually cooler than before, but still hot to touch. Could be better contact with the heatsink.
Sounds like progress in the proper direction, if it is running cooler than before. <snip> Did you get any documentation with the fan?
Lanny Marcus wrote:
On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 7:39 PM, Robert Moskowitz rgm@htt-consult.com wrote:
I just replaced my fan in my nc2400. It was a 5hour job. Had to pull
<snip>
So how can I find out what Centos knows about the system temp and fan state?
<snip>
Now with the new fan in, it is not turning at all, but the unit is actually cooler than before, but still hot to touch. Could be better contact with the heatsink.
Sounds like progress in the proper direction, if it is running cooler than before.
<snip> Did you get any documentation with the fan?
No docs. But fortunately, HP has full maintainance docs available on line. I have them for both of my HP notebooks (nc4010 and nc2400). I had to take out EVERYTHING to get to the fan: hard and optical drives, memory, WiFi, Bluetooth, switchs, keyboard, case cover, display, and system board! Then I finally got to the fan and then reassemble and hope I got all those ribbons and connectors connected right. Took about 5 hours (with 1 hour run to MicroCentor to get an T8 and T7 screwdriver, as my T8 socket was not long enough and did not catch in pre-reading the docs about the T7 screws). Fun. Not.
But, since this notebook 'died' the company wrote it off, and now it is mine....
Same with the nc4010 that had a broken display hindge. That was a LOT easier to repair.
re: thermal sensors... I did a bit of googling. This NC2400 laptop is based on the Intel 945GM chipset w/ the ICH7 southbridge. the 945GM does -not- implement that ME (Management Engine) stuff I previously described, instead, it has thermal sensors on a smbus, along with some interesting heuristic logic that attempts to guess how hot the memory is getting based on cycle rate, and tuned by some registers which can be loaded either with BIOS presets or from memory DIMM SPD values... all of this is used to trip 4 possible throttle states just for the GMCH (northbridge)... the Northbridge apparently signals the host {bios|os}via ACPI IRQ to manage the fans.
I found the stuff about memory throttling fascinating reading... Chapter 10.7 of http://www.intel.com/Assets/PDF/datasheet/309219.pdf (the 945GM (G)MCH chip)
Robert Moskowitz wrote on Mon, 5 Jan 2009 19:39:19 -0500:
Now with the new fan in, it is not turning at all,
You can usually set in the BIOS if you want to use "smart fan control" (or what they call it) and which method (three-pin connector fans are controlled by power only) or "Auto". The BIOS usually can also tell you the temperature.
Kai
Kai Schaetzl wrote:
Robert Moskowitz wrote on Mon, 5 Jan 2009 19:39:19 -0500:
Now with the new fan in, it is not turning at all,
You can usually set in the BIOS if you want to use "smart fan control" (or what they call it) and which method (three-pin connector fans are controlled by power only) or "Auto". The BIOS usually can also tell you the temperature.
Well after the unit started overheating and the fan not turning, I powered off and let it cool off.
Then I went into the BIOS and set it for the fan to always run while on AC. Then reboot.
I will say that when the old fan was failing, there were times when I took the unit out of hibernate and the fan never came on and the unit began to overheat. Turning off, or even just going into hiberhate again, then restarting tended to get the fan working again. Some state lost thing. I had the unit in hibernate when I tore it apart to install the new fan...
So now there is the bearly heard whisper of the new fan turning. I can actually hear myself mutter, and I don't end the day with a headache!
Robert Moskowitz wrote on Wed, 7 Jan 2009 19:55:19 -0500:
Then I went into the BIOS and set it for the fan to always run while on AC.
Wow, I didn't know there are BIOS settings for *that*.
Kai
Kai Schaetzl wrote:
Robert Moskowitz wrote on Wed, 7 Jan 2009 19:55:19 -0500:
Then I went into the BIOS and set it for the fan to always run while on AC.
Wow, I didn't know there are BIOS settings for *that*.
I guess it falls under the power management catagory. Since your on AC, you are not worried about battery performance, so keep the fan going and don't be so fancy with managing temperature....
Robert Moskowitz wrote on Thu, 8 Jan 2009 08:26:35 -0500:
I guess it falls under the power management catagory. Since your on AC, you are not worried about battery performance, so keep the fan going and don't be so fancy with managing temperature....
Well, yes, I just haven't seen it in a notebook BIOS yet. I'm obviously buying the wrong ones ;-)
Kai
On Thu, Jan 08, 2009 at 01:28:41PM +0100, Kai Schaetzl wrote:
Robert Moskowitz wrote on Wed, 7 Jan 2009 19:55:19 -0500:
Then I went into the BIOS and set it for the fan to always run while on AC.
Wow, I didn't know there are BIOS settings for *that*.
Some have it, some don't. You'll have to go hunting for it. Jeff Kinz
-
Christopher Chan -
jkinz＠kinz.org -
John R Pierce -
Joseph L. Casale -
Kai Schaetzl -
Lanny Marcus -
Morten Torstensen -
Rainer Duffner -
Robert Moskowitz