I just realised that I haven't touched a centos/redhat machine in more than a couple of years. Everything I do now is Kubernetes based or using cloud services (or k8s cloud services).
What about it listeroons? Is your fleet of centos boxes ever expanding or are you just taking care of a single java 6 jboss application that takes care of the companies widget stocks?
How are your jobs changing?
Cheers,
Andrew
On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 02:42:19PM +0200, Andrew Holway wrote:
I just realised that I haven't touched a centos/redhat machine in more than a couple of years. Everything I do now is Kubernetes based or using cloud services (or k8s cloud services).
What about it listeroons? Is your fleet of centos boxes ever expanding or are you just taking care of a single java 6 jboss application that takes care of the companies widget stocks?
What OS are your k8s clusters running on? How about your cloud providers? Mine are on RHEL and CentOS.
On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 09:16:33AM -0400, Jonathan Billings wrote:
What OS are your k8s clusters running on? How about your cloud providers? Mine are on RHEL and CentOS.
On top of that, I often use centos as my base image for Dockerfiles, using the Centos docker repository. While I also use alpine sometimes if I want it really tiny, it is really nice to be able to just rebuild the image against updates and not have to worry as much about underlying API changes breaking my app.
What OS are your k8s clusters running on? How about your cloud providers? Mine are on RHEL and CentOS.
I don't know. We use fully managed services from Google. I think its coreOS.
-- Jonathan Billings billings@negate.org _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 at 09:32, Andrew Holway andrew.holway@gmail.com wrote:
What OS are your k8s clusters running on? How about your cloud providers? Mine are on RHEL and CentOS.
I don't know. We use fully managed services from Google. I think its coreOS.
If its old coreOS then it is a rebuild of Gentoo. If it is newer coreOS it is a repackaged Fedora/RHEL. At some point it may be a repackaged CentOS.. but it isn't at a level you deal with. You have moved up the stack.. other people are dealing with the lower levels of plumbing and you are able to deal with higher level operations.
On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 9:32 AM Andrew Holway andrew.holway@gmail.com wrote:
What OS are your k8s clusters running on? How about your cloud providers? Mine are on RHEL and CentOS.
I don't know. We use fully managed services from Google. I think its coreOS.
Some of us build the infrastructure others use, which is what Google does. That includes having baremetal servers people can access (reserve, tell it which OS to install) to develop code for PCI devices which will later be used by the Google and Amazons which will then abstract them to their users.
If you are working at the kubernetes level, you could not care less about whether a given NIC works or is giving the maximum performance; you do not even care about which NIC is being used.
It is all about what you do.
-- Jonathan Billings billings@negate.org _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
What OS are your k8s clusters running on? How about your cloud providers? Mine are on RHEL and CentOS.
I don't know. We use fully managed services from Google. I think its coreOS.
I'm wondering what desktops you run then, are they also running on Kubernetes? I know some prefer Windows or Mac OS, but others really like Linux to work with. How would that work if no Linux distributions exist anymore?
Apart from that, there are people in this world who like to stay as far away from G**gle as possible. And there are some who do it with good reason and the same applies to A**zon, A**le, M$$rosoft you name them. They will never ask if distributions became redundant.
I'm afraid too many clouds make the wider horizon invisible :-)
Regards, Simon
Andrew Holway wrote:
I just realised that I haven't touched a centos/redhat machine in more than a couple of years. Everything I do now is Kubernetes based or using cloud services (or k8s cloud services).
What about it listeroons? Is your fleet of centos boxes ever expanding or are you just taking care of a single java 6 jboss application that takes care of the companies widget stocks?
How are your jobs changing?
Nope. Well... actually, my manager's talking about Ubuntu or maybe even FreeBSD. He's *extremely* upset with RH being so slow - 8 should have been out for some time, for one, and a lot of 7, even with SCL, is far behind, and our researchers want newer software.
But most of our Office's work is done in-house. Lots of CentOS and RH, lesser amounts, AFAIK, of ubuntu.
Cloud? Why would I want to go back to time-sharing on a mainframe?*
mark
* Go ahead, explain the difference to me, and if you start to write "but it's many servers", then you don't understand timesharing on a mainframe.
On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 10:18:40AM -0400, mark wrote:
Nope. Well... actually, my manager's talking about Ubuntu or maybe even FreeBSD. He's *extremely* upset with RH being so slow - 8 should have been out for some time, for one, and a lot of 7, even with SCL, is far behind,
It should have been? Says who?
John
On Wednesday 24 April 2019 17:22:13 John R. Dennison wrote:
On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 10:18:40AM -0400, mark wrote:
Nope. Well... actually, my manager's talking about Ubuntu or maybe even FreeBSD. He's *extremely* upset with RH being so slow - 8 should have been out for some time, for one, and a lot of 7, even with SCL, is far behind,
It should have been? Says who?
I may only be guessing, but maybe he was referring to the age of C7. There is no doubt that C7 is now VERY old software wise. I've just gone through building a new web server, and have had to use a lot of external repositories in order to pull in even reasonably new Postgresql / Apache / PHP etc.
On 04/25/19 04:36, Gary Stainburn wrote:
On Wednesday 24 April 2019 17:22:13 John R. Dennison wrote:
On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 10:18:40AM -0400, mark wrote:
Nope. Well... actually, my manager's talking about Ubuntu or maybe even FreeBSD. He's *extremely* upset with RH being so slow - 8 should have been out for some time, for one, and a lot of 7, even with SCL, is far behind,
It should have been? Says who?
I may only be guessing, but maybe he was referring to the age of C7. There is no doubt that C7 is now VERY old software wise. I've just gone through building a new web server, and have had to use a lot of external repositories in order to pull in even reasonably new Postgresql / Apache / PHP etc.
Got it in one - that's exactly why he thinks it should have been out before.
mark
On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 07:35:53AM -0400, mark wrote:
On 04/25/19 04:36, Gary Stainburn wrote:
On Wednesday 24 April 2019 17:22:13 John R. Dennison wrote:
On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 10:18:40AM -0400, mark wrote:
Nope. Well... actually, my manager's talking about Ubuntu or maybe even FreeBSD. He's *extremely* upset with RH being so slow - 8 should have been out for some time, for one, and a lot of 7, even with SCL, is far behind,
It should have been? Says who?
I may only be guessing, but maybe he was referring to the age of C7. There is no doubt that C7 is now VERY old software wise. I've just gone through building a new web server, and have had to use a lot of external repositories in order to pull in even reasonably new Postgresql / Apache / PHP etc.
Got it in one - that's exactly why he thinks it should have been out before.
Perhaps you've never seen the Software Collections repositories? https://wiki.centos.org/AdditionalResources/Repositories/SCL
For what its worth, RHEL8 (and subsequently, CentOS8) will have Application Streams, which will be somewhat like SCLs, except they'll be more core to the OS. That'll let you update software like python, perl, apache httpd, etc. without interferring with the OS.
https://developers.redhat.com/blog/2018/11/15/rhel8-introducing-appstreams/
Andrew Holway wrote:
I just realised that I haven't touched a centos/redhat machine in more than a couple of years. Everything I do now is Kubernetes based or using cloud services (or k8s cloud services).
What about it listeroons? Is your fleet of centos boxes ever expanding or are you just taking care of a single java 6 jboss application that takes care of the companies widget stocks?
How are your jobs changing?
Nope. Well... actually, my manager's talking about Ubuntu or maybe even FreeBSD. He's *extremely* upset with RH being so slow - 8 should have been out for some time, for one, and a lot of 7, even with SCL, is far behind, and our researchers want newer software.
Maybe you should try to explain to your manager why RHEL/CentOS exist and why it's widely used in the corporate world. If he talks about Ubuntu then you could explain to him what Fedora is any why and how it differs from RHEL/CentOS.
Of course, managers do not always listen to those who do the real work.
Regards, Simon
Maybe you should try to explain to your manager why RHEL/CentOS exist and why it's widely used in the corporate world. If he talks about Ubuntu then you could explain to him what Fedora is any why and how it differs from RHEL/CentOS.
I'm not really sure that the reasons for Rhel really exist anymore. The oft quoted Library stabilty is more of a hindrance than a help in modern development environments with well operating CI.
When the dinosaur IBM bought RH it was clear that it had become a fossil.
Of course there is still legacy applications that need that but I see a definite shift away from OS dependant monoliths even in the more traditional enterprises
Another point is that Ubuntu is not just a Fedora alternative, they have a long-term support option known as LTS - all the even numbered releases: 14.04 (at EOL), 16.04, 18.04 (latest). I have heard that for 18.04 forward, they are going to a 10-year support model. For a Fedora alternative the odd-numbered releases should be used.
________________________________ From: CentOS centos-bounces@centos.org on behalf of Andrew Holway andrew.holway@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2019 12:08:14 PM To: Simon Matter; centos Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [CentOS] Are linux distros redundant?
Maybe you should try to explain to your manager why RHEL/CentOS exist and why it's widely used in the corporate world. If he talks about Ubuntu then you could explain to him what Fedora is any why and how it differs from RHEL/CentOS.
I'm not really sure that the reasons for Rhel really exist anymore. The oft quoted Library stabilty is more of a hindrance than a help in modern development environments with well operating CI.
When the dinosaur IBM bought RH it was clear that it had become a fossil.
Of course there is still legacy applications that need that but I see a definite shift away from OS dependant monoliths even in the more traditional enterprises
_______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
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Simon Matter via CentOS wrote:
Andrew Holway wrote:
I just realised that I haven't touched a centos/redhat machine in more than a couple of years. Everything I do now is Kubernetes based or using cloud services (or k8s cloud services).
What about it listeroons? Is your fleet of centos boxes ever expanding or are you just taking care of a single java 6 jboss application that takes care of the companies widget stocks?
How are your jobs changing?
Nope. Well... actually, my manager's talking about Ubuntu or maybe even FreeBSD. He's *extremely* upset with RH being so slow - 8 should have been out for some time, for one, and a lot of 7, even with SCL, is far behind, and our researchers want newer software.
Maybe you should try to explain to your manager why RHEL/CentOS exist and why it's widely used in the corporate world. If he talks about Ubuntu then you could explain to him what Fedora is any why and how it differs from RHEL/CentOS.
Of course, managers do not always listen to those who do the real work.
Bad assumption, in this case. My manager is also a sr. sysadmin. He pushed CentOS a long time ago - we were running 5 when I got here, almost 10 years ago. But the folks we support keep wanting to run software that uses much newer PHP, and Python, and stuff from newer kernels.
For example, allegedly (don't know for sure), some version of Ubuntu supports CUDA out of the box, as opposed to the mess I have to go through getting it and updating it from NVidia.
mark
Simon Matter via CentOS wrote:
Andrew Holway wrote:
I just realised that I haven't touched a centos/redhat machine in more than a couple of years. Everything I do now is Kubernetes based or using cloud services (or k8s cloud services).
What about it listeroons? Is your fleet of centos boxes ever expanding or are you just taking care of a single java 6 jboss application that takes care of the companies widget stocks?
How are your jobs changing?
Nope. Well... actually, my manager's talking about Ubuntu or maybe even FreeBSD. He's *extremely* upset with RH being so slow - 8 should have been out for some time, for one, and a lot of 7, even with SCL, is far behind, and our researchers want newer software.
Maybe you should try to explain to your manager why RHEL/CentOS exist and why it's widely used in the corporate world. If he talks about Ubuntu then you could explain to him what Fedora is any why and how it differs from RHEL/CentOS.
Btw, right now, we've just built a new server as Ubuntu, because my manager wants to use it to test zfs, including its ability to a) act as a RAID, directly, without an underlying RAID, and b) encrypt the whole thing natively.
mark
Btw, right now, we've just built a new server as Ubuntu, because my manager wants to use it to test zfs, including its ability to a) act as a RAID, directly, without an underlying RAID, and b) encrypt the whole thing natively.
ZFS on linux was originally an EL project. Ubuntu support came later.
On Wednesday, April 24, 2019 11:25:00 AM PDT Andrew Holway wrote:
Btw, right now, we've just built a new server as Ubuntu, because my manager wants to use it to test zfs, including its ability to a) act as a RAID, directly, without an underlying RAID, and b) encrypt the whole thing natively.
ZFS on linux was originally an EL project. Ubuntu support came later.
I've been running ZoL on CentOS for years. Wonderful stuff. SysAdmin's dream, although we keep all ZoL boxes off any public access and update on a carefully tested schedule to ensure that no RPM version weirdness happens.
Benjamin Smith wrote:
On Wednesday, April 24, 2019 11:25:00 AM PDT Andrew Holway wrote:
Btw, right now, we've just built a new server as Ubuntu, because my manager wants to use it to test zfs, including its ability to a) act as a RAID, directly, without an underlying RAID, and b) encrypt the whole thing natively.
ZFS on linux was originally an EL project. Ubuntu support came later.
I've been running ZoL on CentOS for years. Wonderful stuff. SysAdmin's dream, although we keep all ZoL boxes off any public access and update on a carefully tested schedule to ensure that no RPM version weirdness happens.
Ok, how's it scale on large filesystems? My manager was running some tests this morning, 37TB f/s, and he said it seemed slow to respond. Also, dedup seemed to take actual time - minutes. I saw him as he copied a 1G test file to two or three other names, and it took time to go up, then level off in size, with "size" being what we saw with df.
mark
On Wednesday, April 24, 2019 1:18:46 PM PDT mark wrote:
Benjamin Smith wrote:
On Wednesday, April 24, 2019 11:25:00 AM PDT Andrew Holway wrote:
Btw, right now, we've just built a new server as Ubuntu, because my manager wants to use it to test zfs, including its ability to a) act as a RAID, directly, without an underlying RAID, and b) encrypt the whole thing natively.
ZFS on linux was originally an EL project. Ubuntu support came later.
I've been running ZoL on CentOS for years. Wonderful stuff. SysAdmin's dream, although we keep all ZoL boxes off any public access and update on a carefully tested schedule to ensure that no RPM version weirdness happens.
Ok, how's it scale on large filesystems? My manager was running some tests this morning, 37TB f/s, and he said it seemed slow to respond. Also, dedup seemed to take actual time - minutes. I saw him as he copied a 1G test file to two or three other names, and it took time to go up, then level off in size, with "size" being what we saw with df.
We don't use dedup so I can't comment there. Memory requirements jump *sharply* with dedup and our use case doesn't call for it anyway.
We store in the range of 500M files in 48TB total pool size, 3x 6 RAIDZ2 vdevs, 4 TB per HGST 3.5" drive, random read/write load. System memory is 32 GB ECC on (now) older Xeon processors. Nothing too fancy. We don't use any particular caching schemes like ARC. We use compression and get about 1.5 compressratio.
For simple file read/writes, It's somewhat slower than ext* (perhaps 1/2 the IOPS) but that's more than made up by the fact that backups take minutes rather than rsync's days and are always consistent a la snapshots. (You do back up, right?) The lack of having a 24x7 rsync process saves far more IOPS than the 1/2 cost, so in practice we come out way ahead with a sharp performance increase. We considered lsyncd but having a 3 day window of replication every time we update our master file servers really seemed like a non-starter.
We have 3 systems of identical configuration, and our application layer reads/ writes to all 3 concurrently at the application level using a custom-written daemon that operates over unencrypted TCP sockets on a private LAN. For safety, one of the systems is still running ext* just in case we get bit by a ZFS bug. (knock on wood, hasn't happened yet in 7 years)
Performance is more than adequate and has never been a bottleneck, even with up to 15,000 concurrent users. If we needed performance increases, we'd probably switch to using mirror vdevs instead of RAIDZ2, and then perhaps L2ARC. Finally, we can shard the file store if needed at the application layer, but we've long ago passed our biggest estimations of when we'd need to do this and so far, no significant issues.
On 4/24/19 5:42 AM, Andrew Holway wrote:
I just realised that I haven't touched a centos/redhat machine in more than a couple of years.
I think that's a very narrow view of what Red Hat does. They're not just writing rpm spec files and building somone else's code.
Red Hat is the largest contributor to most of the core GNU/Linux software stack. If you use GNU/Linux, then you're using Red Hat's work.
Kubernetes isn't really a general-purpose UNIX operating system and so the question seems like it's comparing apples with oranges, at least, unless you're doing a very narrow and specific thing with certain automation and scalability requirements.
I don't think the fundamental raison d'être for a UNIX workstation or server operating environment has changed in four decades, even if there are also specialized grids for scalable application or HPC operations.
Cheers, Ben
On 4/24/19 5:42 AM, Andrew Holway wrote:
I just realised that I haven't touched a centos/redhat machine in more than a couple of years. Everything I do now is Kubernetes based or using cloud services (or k8s cloud services).
What about it listeroons? Is your fleet of centos boxes ever expanding or are you just taking care of a single java 6 jboss application that takes care of the companies widget stocks?
How are your jobs changing?
Cheers,
Andrew _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
At Wed, 24 Apr 2019 12:02:54 -0700 CentOS mailing list centos@centos.org wrote:
Kubernetes isn't really a general-purpose UNIX operating system and so the question seems like it's comparing apples with oranges, at least, unless you're doing a very narrow and specific thing with certain automation and scalability requirements.
I don't think the fundamental raison d'être for a UNIX workstation or server operating environment has changed in four decades, even if there are also specialized grids for scalable application or HPC operations.
I have a "UNIX workstation" on my workbench. It is a Raspberry Pi (an older Model 2B). It is (at this time) my main circuit board CAD box. Also my main build box for: ARM (embeded) Linux (Raspberry Pi and Beagle Boards) and things like ESP32, ARM, and AVR microcontrollers (eg Arduino IDE). And I access it remotely with my laptop, running CentOS.
Cheers, Ben
On 4/24/19 5:42 AM, Andrew Holway wrote:
I just realised that I haven't touched a centos/redhat machine in more than a couple of years. Everything I do now is Kubernetes based or using cloud services (or k8s cloud services).
What about it listeroons? Is your fleet of centos boxes ever expanding or are you just taking care of a single java 6 jboss application that takes care of the companies widget stocks?
How are your jobs changing?
Cheers,
Andrew _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
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