Tru,

I work at a university. They don't provide enough money for test environments :). Just kinda odd, last time kernel update, gfs updated at the same time so all was well. But twice now kernel has upgraded with no GFS so it went bye-bye. Is the GFS being installed, compiled against particular kernel headers, or could I just copy the /fs/gfs and /fs/gfs_locking to the new kernel /lib/modules (or symlink for that matter) and be lucky enough it would work?

On Mon, 2008-05-12 at 22:48 +0200, Tru Huynh wrote:

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 11:00:18PM +0300, Linux wrote:

...

Well, I should add a terrible story for XFS...

I did a "yum update" and after updating many packages I rebooted and viola...

You seem to enjoy living dangerously ? Don't you ever use a testing machine before rolling the updates on a production server? We appreciate your trust in our project, but you should always test on your own setup.

...

Old xfs module ruined my 1.2TB partition. After updating to correct module and hours of xfs_repair I had to move and rename 500 subfolders from lost+found.

That is the 1st time I hear such a story: if the xfs module is not installed for your new kernel, the only thing that should happen is the inability to mount the XFS filesystem.

...

I am using CentOS because I have to (for cPanel).

That's trolling, CPanel is NOT CentOS...

Tru _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 04:20:46PM -0500, Doug Tucker wrote:

Tru,

Hi Doug,

I work at a university. They don't provide enough money for test environments :).

Sure, but they could probably understand if it's 'critical' ;)

Just kinda odd, last time kernel update, gfs updated at the same time so all was well. But twice now kernel has upgraded

CentOS can't rebuild if upstream hasn't released the corresponding src.rpm. Upstream's GFS is often released later than the kernel RHSA...

with no GFS so it went bye-bye. Is the GFS being installed, compiled against particular kernel headers, or could I just copy the /fs/gfs and /fs/gfs_locking to the new kernel /lib/modules (or symlink for that matter) and be lucky enough it would work?

No idea.

Cheers,

Tru

On Tuesday 13 May 2008 04:20:46 Doug Tucker wrote:

Tru,

I work at a university. They don't provide enough money for test environments :). Just kinda odd, last time kernel update, gfs updated at the same time so all was well. But twice now kernel has upgraded with no GFS so it went bye-bye. Is the GFS being installed, compiled against particular kernel headers, or could I just copy the /fs/gfs and /fs/gfs_locking to the new kernel /lib/modules (or symlink for that matter) and be lucky enough it would work?

From my experience, if the production server is running OK, and the update is not security-related, then there is NO NEED to update in your situation. If you DO want to update for whatever reason, test it first in a testbed.

Trust me. It comes from a traumatic experience :)

I intend to do that. Kernel's removed from automatic updates.

We'll agree to disagree about the importance of not breaking an officially supported kernel filesystem on an automated upgrade because only a "few" of us are affected. Keep in mind this is not an unsupported XFS that someone hijacked my thread with. I say there is little in a new kernel that the "rest" of the users cannot wait 2-3 lousy days for. Wanna stretch it to a week to meet your statement of "earliest", I can live with that and my statement still stands. And, I do realize this is not centos's fight, I guess my complaint is with RedHat in this case, they should be more responsible than that. If M$ took that policy and released official upgrades they knew would break even a small percentage of their users, especially something as critical as the very filesystem that your entire user data resides on, we (the linux community) would be throwing them under the rug for it.

On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 05:44 -0500, Johnny Hughes wrote:

Doug Tucker wrote:

...

Tru,

I work at a university. They don't provide enough money for test environments :). Just kinda odd, last time kernel update, gfs updated at the same time so all was well. But twice now kernel has upgraded with no GFS so it went bye-bye. Is the GFS being installed, compiled against particular kernel headers, or could I just copy the /fs/gfs and /fs/gfs_locking to the new kernel /lib/modules (or symlink for that matter) and be lucky enough it would work?

Please be aware that redhat releases GFS at a different time than the, usually 2-3 days later (at the earliest).

In this case, here are the upstream release dates:

kernel - 5/7/2008 gfs kmods - 5/9/2008

my point is that even upstream does not release these at the same time.

What you should do (and what everyone who has kmods on c4 should do) is to exclude kernels from automatic updates ... then you can manually update the kernels and kmods together separately.

Thanks, Johnny Hughes

---

CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos

On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 11:07 -0700, MHR wrote:

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 7:44 AM, Doug Tucker tuckerd@engr.smu.edu wrote:

...

I intend to do that. Kernel's removed from automatic updates.

There you go.

...

We'll agree to disagree about the importance of not breaking an officially supported kernel filesystem on an automated upgrade because only a "few" of us are affected. Keep in mind this is not an unsupported XFS that someone hijacked my thread with. I say there is little in a new kernel that the "rest" of the users cannot wait 2-3 lousy days for. Wanna stretch it to a week to meet your statement of "earliest", I can live with that and my statement still stands. And, I do realize this is not centos's fight, I guess my complaint is with RedHat in this case, they should be more responsible than that. If M$ took that policy and released official upgrades they knew would break even a small percentage of their users, especially something as critical as the very filesystem that your entire user data resides on, we (the linux community) would be throwing them under the rug for it.

1. You're top posting - please stop it. In this email list, we bottom

post as a matter of policy and courtesy. It's not that hard....

I'm sorry, that last sentence was unnecessary and just rude. I don't tell you how to set your email client and what your preference is toward how you like to read your email. I find it completely annoying to have to scroll to the bottom of a message to read a reply. I will comply with the group as a whole that I chose to join, I was unaware that bottom posting was preference. But I do not appreciate the tone, you could have easily asked nicely or referred me to the preference policy for me to follow.

2. This isn't really an issue of "agreeing to disagree." XFS is *not*

a Red Hat product at all. They (RH) do not support it at all. The CentOS project provides XFS as an *extra* that is NOT part of the mainline CentOS release stream. It is only supported by the CentOS group in the centosplus repository, which is a courtesy provided for free by the CentOS group.

This is a matter of agreeing to disagree on the release of a kernel and a supported file system. If you had read my thread and subsequent paragraph you're taking issue with properly, you would have gotten that. My whole issue is around GFS, which is officially supported (someone else hijacked this thread with XFS which got more attention), and in my statement I said: "Keep in mind this is not an unsupported XFS that someone hijacked my thread with." So I'm agreeing that XFS should never be brought up in the same fashion as GFS, as it is not a supported file system. GFS is, and it is my opinion RH should release the 2 together.

IOW, CentOS does not have to support XFS at all. That they do is a courtesy.

Now, if you like the centosplus "product" and use it, remember to follow the guidelines for it - little things like not doing automatic updates because you already *know* that centosplus does not come out immediately when RH releases a change that CentOS picks up and releases as well.

I already agreed and removed kernel from the update, no need to lecture. Again, if you will take the time to read instead of knee-jerking a reaction in some automatic defense of your feelings, you will note that I took the aim at RedHat for the issue, and said it was not CentOS's problem. Read boy, read.

All of this is clearly discussed here from time to time, so the expectations have been set accordingly. Please try to remember this and manage your installations accordingly, too.

And that's *my* soapbox, from which I will now step down and shut up. Temporarily.

And unfortunately, all based on improper understanding of what was written, which makes it inappropriate in a public forum. Me thinks you had seen enough of the other guy whining about his unsupported platform, saw the word XFS in my paragraph, and basically quit reading and decided to send your XFS rant at me. I hope from a therapeutic standpoint, it helped you in some fashion.

:D

:-}

mhr _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos

On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 12:37 -0700, John R Pierce wrote:

Doug Tucker wrote:

...

My whole issue is around GFS, which is officially supported (someone else hijacked this thread with XFS which got more attention), and in my statement I said: "Keep in mind this is not an unsupported XFS that someone hijacked my thread with." So I'm agreeing that XFS should never be brought up in the same fashion as GFS, as it is not a supported file system. GFS is, and it is my opinion RH should release the 2 together.

GFS is only 'officially supported' under a seperate $$$$ contract from Red Hat.

And? It's official. In fact, ext3 is only officially supported from them these day without a $$$ contract. Which is why we're all here! :D

And, if you're a GFS customer of Red Hat's, I'm pretty darn sure the first thing they do is disable kernel updates... In fact, I seem to recall that RHEL4 ships with kernel updates disabled, you have to use `up2date --force` or something to enable them.

Yes, but kernel is disabled from EL4 reguardless of filesystem, so GFS has nothing to do with that. YOu can just edit the up2date file to remove that. I merely believe that GFS filesystem updates should be released in conjuntion with kernel with all the other filesystems built in, treating it no differently since it is officially supported, just not put in the standard kernel build to put separation between it and the $$ extra product. And that is merely, an opinion.

---

CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos

All I am saying is that GFS (and any other ADDED repo besides Base or Updates) will get updates ... however they are not normally going to be as fast as the Base and Updates repos. That is just how it goes.

I can totally live with that, I was just b**ching about RH's approach. I'm not expecting centos to do anything more, I appreciate the fact that this exists, as it keeps me from having to use debian :).

On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 12:38 -0700, MHR wrote:

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 11:58 AM, Doug Tucker tuckerd@engr.smu.edu wrote:

...

On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 11:07 -0700, MHR wrote:

...

1. You're top posting - please stop it. In this email list, we bottom

post as a matter of policy and courtesy. It's not that hard....

I'm sorry, that last sentence was unnecessary and just rude. I don't tell you how to set your email client and what your preference is toward how you like to read your email. I find it completely annoying to have to scroll to the bottom of a message to read a reply. I will comply with the group as a whole that I chose to join, I was unaware that bottom posting was preference. But I do not appreciate the tone, you could have easily asked nicely or referred me to the preference policy for me to follow.

You apparently didn't see the smiley I left out of the last sentence.... :-) I didn't mean it to be rude at all - no tone implied. I just noticed that you have posted several times to the list and all of them, until now, were top posts, unlike almost everyone else. I /was/ trying to be nice....

"It's not that hard" would have gotten you b**ch slapped even with a smile on your face in person. Just stick to polite, it's not that hard :D.

...

This is a matter of agreeing to disagree on the release of a kernel and a supported file system. If you had read my thread and subsequent paragraph you're taking issue with properly, you would have gotten that. My whole issue is around GFS, which is officially supported (someone else hijacked this thread with XFS which got more attention), and in my statement I said: "Keep in mind this is not an unsupported XFS that someone hijacked my thread with." So I'm agreeing that XFS should never be brought up in the same fashion as GFS, as it is not a supported file system. GFS is, and it is my opinion RH should release the 2 together.

Yes, I've been reading the thread. I you didn't mention GFS in the specific post to which I was replying, but you're right, it's there in prior posts. So all of my commentary about XFS does not apply to your post. Non-sequitur - mea culpa. :-)

...

I already agreed and removed kernel from the update, no need to lecture.

It was intended to be a gentle reminder. (You've obviously never seen me lecture....)

touche!

...

Again, if you will take the time to read instead of knee-jerking a reaction in some automatic defense of your feelings, you will note that I took the aim at RedHat for the issue, and said it was not CentOS's problem. Read boy, read.

<snip> > > And unfortunately, all based on improper understanding of what was > written, which makes it inappropriate in a public forum. Me thinks you > had seen enough of the other guy whining about his unsupported platform, > saw the word XFS in my paragraph, and basically quit reading and decided > to send your XFS rant at me. I hope from a therapeutic standpoint, it > helped you in some fashion. >

You seem awfully touchy here - are you sure you're not lecturing me? :-)

Take a breath, relax, you were not under attack, lecture or anything rude. I meant it with the best of intentions - I usually do.

Bad thing about email, it's hard to grasp tongue in cheek humor and tone isn't it? Didn't you see my <bfg> at the end of my response?

Do you honestly, like having to scroll down with the rolly thing on your mouse 9 times to get to the reply only to find it is not something you cared to read? I say toss it at the top in my face where I can ignore it with less effort.

:D BFG!

mhr _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos

On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 13:00 -0700, John R Pierce wrote:

Doug Tucker wrote:

...

Do you honestly, like having to scroll down with the rolly thing on your mouse 9 times to get to the reply only to find it is not something you cared to read? I say toss it at the top in my face where I can ignore it with less effort.

the other key part of bottom posting is to delete all but what you're replying to. noone needs to see the whole thread quoted in every message, just enough context to frame the response. And, delete the .SIG stuff on the end, too.

I'm still annoyed. Forgot to mention I hate having to move my cursor in a different location than where it is when I hit the reply button before I can type too. Honestly, I see zero benefit in this. And looking at my other tech threads (isc.org and opennms.org) and everyone appears to be top posting, although I guess, they could all be breaking the rules.

Humor turned off for a minute, completely and honestly, can someone explain to me *why* this is the etiquette here? In every fashion, I find it sooo much harder to follow. Does it date back to some dead text based mail client that actually made this easier for some reason?

Left first paragraph at the top, because I find it too relevant in this one to remove.

This is linked from the CentOS FAQ:

http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html

Akemi

LOL! This is just TOO good.

1. Because it is proper Usenet Etiquette.

...all but dead...I run a usenet server here, had 3 logins last month...user base is over 4000...

2. We use a good news reader like Forte Agent.

OMG. I haven't used a usenet reader in 10 years for anything. Assumed Forte Agent went out of development years ago.

I'll stop there, there is not a single thing on that page I can agree with anymore, technology, email and the web have moved on beyond that ideology of old.

I'm already at about 50% of the time reading email on my iphone mail app. Like it or not for the religious users (and I'll count myself there in many categories), eventually most of our mail will be read on a handheld device. So the 2 line preview pane at the top before deciding to atually open the message becomes very relevant, which does not lend itself useful in "bottom posting". I can't remember the last time I saw a desktop user regardless of client not read their mail using the "preview" pane. They need to just rename that, as people even rarely click to open the message anymore. Again, not good when bottom posting. I got poo-poo'd off about my GFS/kernel release schedule, for being in some small minority. So, where are bottom posters, in terms of majority these days? Maybe it's time, to update with the times?

Go ahead, let the bashing begin!

I'm off to another building, taking my email in my pocket with me...

On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 15:56 -0500, Scott Nelson wrote:

On May 14, 2008, at 3:48 PM, Doug Tucker wrote:

...

...all but dead...I run a usenet server here, had 3 logins last month...user base is over 4000...

Usenet is almost dead but e-mail lists abound (you are using one). Same concepts.

I know, but my point was, since we all use email to read email lists, let's get off the old usenet etiquette, and use email etiquette, which you will find yourself in the very minute minority that replies bottom post.

Jason Pyeron wrote:

...

...

...

...all but dead...I run a usenet server here, had 3 logins last month...user base is over 4000...

Usenet is almost dead but e-mail lists abound (you are using one). Same concepts.

I know, but my point was, since we all use email to read email lists, let's get off the old usenet etiquette, and use email etiquette, which you will find yourself in the very minute minority that replies bottom post.

There is business email where you reply immediately and expect the recipient to remember the context he sent so top-posting works and internet email where you reply when you get around to it and most of the readers aren't going to remember any context so top-posting doesn't work.

...

I just wish I could configure my outlook ...

Configure it? Don't you know how to move the cursor? The point is that you are supposed to delete the irrelevant context as you move down, replying underneath the parts you leave so it lands it the right place conversation-wise.

-----Original Message----- From: centos-bounces@centos.org [mailto:centos-bounces@centos.org] On Behalf Of Les Mikesell

Jason Pyeron wrote:

...

I just wish I could configure my outlook ...

Configure it? Don't you know how to move the cursor? The point is that you are supposed to delete the irrelevant context as you move down, replying underneath the parts you leave so it lands it the right place conversation-wise.

I know that, but it was a lot easier in pine.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- - - - Jason Pyeron PD Inc. http://www.pdinc.us - - Principal Consultant 10 West 24th Street #100 - - +1 (443) 269-1555 x333 Baltimore, Maryland 21218 - - - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, purge the message from your system and notify the sender immediately. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited.

On Fri, 16 May 2008, Les Mikesell wrote:

I'm not sure I've ever seen the words 'easy' and 'pine' used in the same sentence before. Pine has to have the most counterintuitive interface known to man.

I usually hold the shift key down while using the down-arrow to move over the parts to remove which will select/highlight it, hit delete at the end of the irrelevant part, arrow on down past the relevant context to add my response below it, repeating if there is more than one section continuing in the conversation.

There's the problem, Les !! -- the pine (now, alpine) editor, pico, does not work that way. Fortunately, [al]pine will honor an EDITOR environment variable for those preferring a different editor, so one can go nuts, and even, say, use emacs.

- Russ herrold

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 1:42 PM, Paul Heinlein heinlein@madboa.com wrote:

I love alpine. It works with UTF-8 so you can read spam in the original Hebrew or Chinese, but it's text-only so you avoid NSFW images. You get foreign language practice in an HR-acceptable manner. Woohoo!

Yes, alpine makes a huge difference for me (a long time user of pine). I can read/write in my native language Japanese. I used to have to use a separate mail client when communicating in .jp, but now I don't have to.

Akemi

Doug Tucker wrote:

I know, but my point was, since we all use email to read email lists, let's get off the old usenet etiquette, and use email etiquette, which you will find yourself in the very minute minority that replies bottom post.

Not on this or most any other technical list, with the probable exception of Microsoft Outlook users who seem to think they are the center of the universe and that everyone else should bow to their non-standards-compliant client's quirks.

have you ever seen an email list digest? digests and archives filled with fully quoted top posted mail are completely unreadable. most of the lists I manage personally, over half the subscribers use the 'digest' (and the vast majority of these rarely if ever post).

here's another good discussion on this. http://mailformat.dan.info/quoting/top-posting.html

A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right. Q: Why should I start my reply below the quoted text?

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

A: The lost context. Q: What makes top-posted replies harder to read than bottom-posted?

A: Yes. Q: Should I trim down the quoted part of an email to which I'm replying?

On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 16:48 -0500, Doug Tucker wrote:

On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 15:56 -0500, Scott Nelson wrote:

...

On May 14, 2008, at 3:48 PM, Doug Tucker wrote:

...

...all but dead...I run a usenet server here, had 3 logins last month...user base is over 4000...

I *think* Scott wrote:

...

Usenet is almost dead but e-mail lists abound (you are using one). Same concepts.

I know, but my point was, since we all use email to read email lists, let's get off the old usenet etiquette, and use email etiquette, which you will find yourself in the very minute minority that replies bottom post.

Doug, you *still* are missing the point! The *rules* written in the days of Usenet are *still* applicable today. Why? Because the reason for their existence hasn't changed. Originally there was Usenet *groups* now there are email lists. What's the difference? The names.

Bob

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 11:04:08AM -0700, MHR wrote:

This is way OT, which we know (the Subject: line...) - can we dismiss it as "beaten to death one more time" and go on? :-)

You must be new to the Internet. There's no such thing as too much beating for any horse, dead or not.

:)

Bob Taylor wrote:

On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 16:48 -0500, Doug Tucker wrote:

...

On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 15:56 -0500, Scott Nelson wrote:

...

On May 14, 2008, at 3:48 PM, Doug Tucker wrote:

...

...all but dead...I run a usenet server here, had 3 logins last month...user base is over 4000...

I *think* Scott wrote:

...

...

Usenet is almost dead but e-mail lists abound (you are using one). Same concepts.

I know, but my point was, since we all use email to read email lists, let's get off the old usenet etiquette, and use email etiquette, which you will find yourself in the very minute minority that replies bottom post.

Doug, you *still* are missing the point! The *rules* written in the days of Usenet are *still* applicable today. Why? Because the reason for their existence hasn't changed. Originally there was Usenet *groups* now there are email lists. What's the difference? The names.

Bob

I second Bob on that! I do a lot of support and top posting is a *PITA*. It's like reading a book from bottom to top, right to left! It's "doable" but nor very confortable IMHO.

I'm not saying i have absolute truth, just sharing the view of somebody that do tech support since 15 years.

Guy Boisvert, ing. IngTegration inc.

Carol Anne Ogdin wrote:

Jumping in late here: I sincerely wish that this list was maintained on any of the quality "bulletin board" or "Forum" tools. It would reduce my eMail load, allow me to zoom in on just the issues of interest to me at the moment, and I can eMail those posts to myself that are relevant to my own needs for further editing and documentation.

I find the entire USENET and eMail list thing utterly antediluvian, and wicked hard to use. Often, I can only barely remember that *maybe* something relevant was discussed months ago, but is now relevant to my current issue today. A "forum" is more practical as a tool for building a collective knowledge of the CentOS community. This eMail list just doesn't cut it for a "knowledge base" built up of our collective experience.

Of course, for those of you who still prefer this medium, a "forum" can eMail you posts, just like you see them today. But people who would like to search for a solution from a year or so ago could search the central resource.

Excuse me for being caustic, but you sound delusional. I'd guess you have heard of this thing called 'search' ? it works best on text, that is context specific and goes with you in the list archive.

Besides, Forums are a total and complete waste of time for me. I cant be asked to go clicking around all over the place looking for posts here and there in various websites and pages while on the other hand I can aggregate the list feeds that interest me into a common resource that is available to me on th move or whenever I might need.

And I know that this is the state of play with a large number of people who dont have the time going out looking for things, but prefer letting info / content come to them. Most forums are populated by drive-by posters, since they have a lower barrier to entry and an ever lower barrier to exit. While is quite the opposite to the lists. The info comes to you once you are subscribed, and an easy search digs up relevant content when you need it.

One of the reasons I have such high regard for the few people who stick it out in the CentOS Forums working and helping the people who come posting there is because I know just how much work it is and just how much time is taken up by it. I, for one, cant put in that effort.

Anyway, if you dont like the lists, you can unsubscribe from them ( subscription info is included in the headers of each email sent form the list), and move to the forums on www.centos.org. Why are you even here wasting your time ?

I'd give you 40 technical reasons why forums are not nearly as productive as lists, but I cant be asked really.

On May 16, 2008, at 11:14 AM, Carol Anne Ogdin wrote:

Your opinions are louder than your putative experience. Unfortunately, in 51 years in the computer industry, I've sometimes had to cope with behaviors like yours. It still makes me sad to experience such unhappy people who think that attack is the best way to enrich a collaboration.

hmm. perhaps we should put some of that 51 years of experience to use in evaluating this particular situation? while i can't see inside your head, i can refer to the policies you yourself have published (http://www.deepwoods.com/transform/pubs/DDB.htm).

The "core" participants can be identified by seeing how many other people ("core" or not) refer to them by name. The named people are the "core" group. Make sure you remain sensitive to their concerns, for they implicitly speak for the entire population of participants.

by any definition, Karanbir is one of the core participants of this forum and of the CentOS project. have you lurked here a while? if so, i'm surprised you don't know this. on the CentOS website, please check Information->The CentOS Team->Members and see if some of those names look familiar. please treat him with the respect he is due.

If the boundaries are not clearly established, differing expectations will ensure that somebody feels the boundaries have been crossed. That's why it's important to have some published guidelines for behavior.

the CentOS project does, in fact, have such published guidelines for mailing lists, available here:

http://www.centos.org/modules/tinycontent/index.php?id=16

(that's Support->Mailing Lists off the main page). issues concerning posting and quoting are covered there, quite unambiguously. please respect the published guidelines of this forum, *as you yourself recommend*.

Of course, the newcomer might immediately and inadvertently violate some local cultural norms, sort of like walking through the flower bed on the way to the front door. In this case, it's usually best to take the process of new party education off-line, into e-mail. Chastising people in public for not reading the published guidelines, or for doing something they shouldn't almost guarantees they'll never participate again.

ok, make up your mind; which do you want to be? are you a "tentative participant" who doesn't know how to behave and needs to be acculturated to this forum's norms, or are you a seasoned professional with 117,000 messages worth of experience in community- building? if you're the first, please stop telling everyone else how to behave; if you're the second, please stop making newbie mistakes, since you should know better.

thank you.

-steve -- If this were played upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction. - Fabian, Twelfth Night, III,v

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Karanbir Singh mail-lists@karan.org wrote:

Hi,

Carol Anne Ogdin wrote:

...

Dear Mr. Singh:

I understand you prefer this medium. I have practical experience with alternatives that have offered measurable and definite benefits to the communities they serve.

Which is quite fair, and the point I was making as well. However, the poit I was also making ( and have now repeated about 4 times ) is- this is the lists not the forums. We have some guidelines and the moderaters will make an effort to implement them.

...

Your opinions are louder than your putative experience. Unfortunately, in 51 years in the computer industry, I've sometimes had to cope with behaviors like yours. It still makes me sad to experience such unhappy people who think that attack is the best way to enrich a collaboration.

ok, so you are > 51 years old. Which was good to know. I'll respect you for your age. Apart from that you've made no real contribution to the conversation here.

I think the thing that's annoying about top posting is explained with this example (grabbed from a Boston Linux & Unix Group signature). I'll have to admit when I'm not thinking about it, there have been a few times where I've top posted (bad habit from the corporate world), but if people would take 5 minutes to read a complete thread backwards with comments inserted in between other comments, it gets very confusing. Bottom posting or posting in between comments makes sense.

A: Yes.

Q: Are you sure?

...

A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.

...

Q: Why is top posting annoying in email?

on 5-16-2008 8:14 AM Carol Anne Ogdin spake the following:

Dear Mr. Singh:

I understand you prefer this medium. I have practical experience with alternatives that have offered measurable and definite benefits to the communities they serve.

Your opinions are louder than your putative experience. Unfortunately, in 51 years in the computer industry, I've sometimes had to cope with behaviors like yours. It still makes me sad to experience such unhappy people who think that attack is the best way to enrich a collaboration.

So 51 years ago you had to be working on either Univac or a CDC 1604. There wasn't much else around in 1957. Digital had just opened and hadn't produced a system yet, so Sperry Rand and the new kids CDC were about it.

On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 02:53:50PM -0700, Scott Silva wrote:

on 5-16-2008 8:14 AM Carol Anne Ogdin spake the following:

...

Dear Mr. Singh:

I understand you prefer this medium. I have practical experience with alternatives that have offered measurable and definite benefits to the communities they serve.

Your opinions are louder than your putative experience. Unfortunately, in 51 years in the computer industry, I've sometimes had to cope with behaviors like yours. It still makes me sad to experience such unhappy people who think that attack is the best way to enrich a collaboration.

So 51 years ago you had to be working on either Univac or a CDC 1604. There wasn't much else around in 1957. Digital had just opened and hadn't produced a system yet, so Sperry Rand and the new kids CDC were about it.

Someone around for 10 years much less 51 years would know that Karanbir's style of communication should be considered "blunt" and not offensive. It's a common style of communication for developers. I never take it personally...

I read an interesting take on "why" once. Can't remember the link though... nerds need to remember that normal folk appreciate niceities in conversation, and normal folk need to remember that nerds are often very blunt but aren't really trying to be offensive.

And for the record, top posting is evil (but ubiquitous thanks to MS Outlook and friends) and I much prefer mailing lists to forums. :)

Ray

(Me, too, of course!)

mhr

MHR,

This is true, and you and I proved we can even have fun with it, but name calling (I got called an ass here for virtually nothing), and disrespectful snide remarks (such as telling someone they have provided zero value to a conversation when it was valuable to them), are not being blunt, that's simply being rude and childish, and has no place even amongst us nerds.

---

CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos

On Wed, 2008-05-21 at 05:41 -0400, William L. Maltby wrote:

Sorry to jump in here, but combination of humorous and serious thoughts crossed my mind. And maybe these thoughts will allay future threads of this nature.

On Tue, 2008-05-20 at 09:28 -0500, Doug Tucker wrote:

...

...

(Me, too, of course!)

mhr

MHR,

This is true, and you and I proved we can even have fun with it, but name calling (I got called an ass here for virtually nothing), and

But keep in mind you were only a "virtual ass". Not really one. And the person who labeled you as an ass may have been, in fact, the ass. Regardless, his was only a "virtual opinion". And unless you have a personal relationship and really care what he felt...

Often, when one of the habitual denizens of the list snipe at you, they only make themselves look bad. Old farts like me think "Their momma didn't raise them right". Or they had a rough night.

And I'm glad they have the isolation of the 'net to allow them to vent in safety. Being an old fart, I see lots of behavior that would not have occurred when things had to be said face-to-face.

Courage without risk is common, in both senses of the word. Bravado?

Consideration and courtesy without reward is rare.

...

disrespectful snide remarks (such as telling someone they have provided zero value to a conversation when it was valuable to them), are not being blunt, that's simply being rude and childish, and has no place even amongst us nerds.

Ignore them. They make themselves look bad.

...

<snip sig stuff>

Hahahaha....that was good, and a lot of truth in it too. And I didn't snipe back, I ignored it for the most part, but being an old fart myself, and a born and raised Texas boy, when they started sniping at a lady, well, where I come from IRL, that would buy them a good of fashioned country butt whoopin. I was polite, but frankly thought they needed a "virtual" slap down. I did resist the temptation :). Reminded me too of a video my 4 year old watches, where the old cow tells his son "A strong man stands up for himself, a stronger man stands up for others."

And yes, courage without risk is common. Being an old Texas boy, I would love the opportunity to discuss IRL :).

On Wed, 2008-05-21 at 15:57 +0100, Ned Slider wrote:

William L. Maltby wrote:

...

But keep in mind you were only a "virtual ass". Not really one. And the person who labeled you as an ass may have been, in fact, the ass. Regardless, his was only a "virtual opinion". And unless you have a personal relationship and really care what he felt...

So that would have been the Virtual Johnny Hughes then, not the real one ;)

http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos/2008-May/098996.html

Regardless of who it is...

We've all (probably) had days where our best side was not displayed. I've been a virtual and real ass many times in my life. Mostly in my "youth". As I got older, it happened less and less frequently. But I do expect that I will have future bouts "assiness".

The loss of "sense of community" engendered by cyberspace works with the environment of the younger set to "dehumanize" us. We become "objects" rather than "persons". The is no prohibition against vile acts towards "objects".

It takes an awareness, personal effort and some discipline to resist this dehumanizing effect.

For the folks that I have seen here long enough to come to "know", I easily overlook small transgressions to are contrary to their normal behavior.

This is easy because I can see and appreciate them as "persons" and fit the occasional human foibles into the context of the image of them I've developed.

So whether it's Johnny or any of the other frequent "denizens", an occasional slip doesn't even get remembered after a while.

Generosity and "forgiveness" (as if it was really needed) towards others is easy when I look within myself and see "them" right there inside myself.

For you TX folks, I'm an old AZ boy. I suspect we have some very similar views on things. But I'm also afraid that those "commonly held principals" have slipped into the past. Some for the good, some for the worse.

*sigh*.

<snip sig stuff>

On Mon, 2008-05-19 at 15:00 -0700, Ray Van Dolson wrote:

I read an interesting take on "why" once. Can't remember the link though... nerds need to remember that normal folk appreciate niceities in conversation, and normal folk need to remember that nerds are often very blunt but aren't really trying to be offensive.

http://www.mit.edu/~jcb/tact.html

Doug Tucker wrote:

...

I'd give you 40 technical reasons why forums are not nearly as productive as lists, but I cant be asked really.

Common thread to all of this, is that we are all individuals with different work flows that work better for us. What puzzles me, is why people are so religiously fanatical and disrespectful of the views of others, preferring to chastise and even go as far as you have here, to call her view and choice to be here, regardless of her preference, as a waste of her time.

Doug, if you reread my post you will notice that I am not fanatical about any single form of communication and quite openly acknowledged the work done by other people in other communication venues. All you are doig is re-iterating my point : different people have different needs and uses. Some are here on the list since thats what works for them and the lists come with some guidelines. We ( the CentOS Project ) expect users in these lists to make an effort to adhere to these rules and guidelines.

I see nothing unreasable in that whatsoever. Anyway, as has already been said quite a few times - if the lists dont work for you, leave. Subscription info is included in each email sent from the list.

Les Mikesell questioned, "...who would go there to post any answers?" The answer is the same people who share here...and probably many more who find this sparse medium harder to navigate. There's a thriving community I helped create and nurture, which I've described at http://www.deepwoods.com/transform/pubs/Community.htm

When there's value provided, many people will rise to the challenge of adding even more value.

And, yes, I know there's an archive of posts to this forum, but the question is one of focus: Do you hold more value for a lively (virtual) meeting with lots of participants, or a quiet library where information is archived? This medium feels to me more like the latter.

--Carol Anne

-----Original Message----- From: centos-bounces@centos.org [mailto:centos-bounces@centos.org] On Behalf Of Les Mikesell Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 8:12 PM To: CentOS mailing list Subject: Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting

Carol Anne Ogdin wrote:

...

Jumping in late here: I sincerely wish that this list was

maintained

...

on any of the quality "bulletin board" or "Forum" tools. It would reduce my eMail load, allow me to zoom in on just the issues of interest to me at the moment, and I can eMail those posts to myself that are relevant to my own needs for further editing and

documentation.

If people only looked for questions when they were interested in an answer, there wouldn't be any answers.

...

I find the entire USENET and eMail list thing utterly antediluvian, and wicked hard to use. Often, I can only barely remember that *maybe* something relevant was discussed months ago, but is now relevant to my current issue today. A "forum" is more

practical as a

...

tool for building a collective knowledge of the CentOS community.

But who would go there to post any answers?

...

Of course, for those of you who still prefer this medium, a "forum" can eMail you posts, just like you see them today. But people who would like to search for a solution from a year or so ago

could search

...

the central resource.

Huh?

...

...

http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos

This is on the bottom of every message. Click it sometime and follow the link there that says 'CentOS Archives'. But Google is the place to search since it has the list contents and a lot of other resources.

-- Les Mikesell lesmikesell@gmail.com

---

CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos

Bart Schaefer wrote:

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 8:08 AM, Carol Anne Ogdin caogdin@gmail.com wrote:

...

Les Mikesell questioned, "...who would go there to post any answers?" The answer is the same people who share here...and probably many more who find this sparse medium harder to navigate.

I, for one, would be unlikely to go there to post answers. (Not that I'm a font of answers here, but see for example the zsh mailing lists). All forum software that I've used (which clearly doesn't include all forum software that exists) amplifies two of the most significant problems with asynchronous group communications: (1) failing to start a new thread when one should be started, and (2) starting a new thread when one should not. This happens on mailing lists too, of course, but at least with email I'm entirely in control of how I organize it, so I can re-group messages at will. Using forum software I'm forced to accept whatever (dis)organization the moderators or originator of the message chose.

(If someone knows of forum software that doesn't have this problem -- that gives every user control over how his view of the postings is organized -- I'd be thrilled to hear about it. But if you want to tell me on-list, start a new thread. :-)

There is software that can gateway between forum views and email lists pretty much transparently but it doesn't fix any problems you might have with either view of things - like making neat threads out of a conversation that drifts over more than one topic.

Some samples here: http://www.backupcentral.com/phpBB2/

And, yes, I know there's an archive of posts to this forum, but the question is one of focus: Do you hold more value for a lively (virtual) meeting with lots of participants, or a quiet library where information is archived? This medium feels to me more like the latter.

--Carol Anne

It's a pretty rowdy library, as the archives might indicate. If I might engage in generalism, it gets much more lively when we're not really talking about CentOS.

I'd guess that a large set of the folks subscribed to this list aren't here to be social, and aren't really interested in being excruciatingly social in a, "Hi, I just dropped by the list to say 'Hi!'" sort of way. I don't see this as a meeting with many virtual participants. I don't really think many here do, nor would I expect that the majority would even see meetings as anything more than time wasting when they could be getting something technical done.

I'm not sure what the CentOS Leadership envision, but I'm pretty sure that the uber-for-the-users-ubuntu-facade isn't really what they're aiming for. The general tone as I perceive it is more of a "If you're here, you should already mostly know what you're doing. We were all newbs once, and we'll answer beginner questions grudgingly, but if you didn't bother to do your homework, we don't have much use for you." And that might not be such a bad place to be.

If you haven't used Google before you ask on the list, you're missing a good bet. Since the mailing list archives and forums are both searchable via Google, and probably permanent fixtures on the internet (as permanent as anything is on the internet), Google to me acts as the central repository of all the accumulated knowledge on this particular topic. My guess is that most folks do something similar. I recommend it as a course of action.

Emailing the list with the expectation that someone else is going to do your thinking for you will likely be met with an extra dose of caustic and grump, for that is, at best, begging, and, at worst, outright theft.

Sincerely,

Jacob Leaver Sr. System Administrator ReachONE Internet

Carol Anne Ogdin wrote:

And, yes, I know there's an archive of posts to this forum, but the question is one of focus: Do you hold more value for a lively (virtual) meeting with lots of participants, or a quiet library where information is archived? This medium feels to me more like the latter.

with ~ 60-70 messages since midnight last night?!? 100+ email messages/day is a fairly busy email list by any standards.

but, yes, I'd rather go to the library and read a well written book than hang out at a party where 300 people are all small-talking at once.

on 5-16-2008 8:08 AM Carol Anne Ogdin spake the following:

Les Mikesell questioned, "...who would go there to post any answers?" The answer is the same people who share here...and probably many more who find this sparse medium harder to navigate. There's a thriving community I helped create and nurture, which I've described at http://www.deepwoods.com/transform/pubs/Community.htm

When there's value provided, many people will rise to the challenge of adding even more value.

And, yes, I know there's an archive of posts to this forum, but the question is one of focus: Do you hold more value for a lively (virtual) meeting with lots of participants, or a quiet library where information is archived? This medium feels to me more like the latter.

This list is more like a game of checkers over the cracker barrel. Some work gets done, some bickering gets done. Some friends are made, some feelings get hurt. All in all, not the best list I have been on, but very far away from the worst.

I actually DO subscribe to this list via gmail. However, I seldom bother doing so through webmail, because I like my information to come to me, rather than spending my time logging on, waiting for pages to refresh, etc.

I have long experience in group communication and on-line knowledge accumulation (see, for example, http://www.deepwoods.com/transform/pubs/Community.htm). My focus has always been on the ease and efficiency with which individuals share knowledge with their peers ("the rising tide lifts all boats"). My experience with RHEL/CentOS is not as deep, and I'm eager to learn. I'd just like to help bridge the gap that--to my observation--impedes knowledge transfer.

--Carol Anne

-----Original Message----- From: centos-bounces@centos.org [mailto:centos-bounces@centos.org] On Behalf Of Bart Schaefer Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 8:31 PM To: CentOS mailing list Subject: Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Carol Anne Ogdin caogdin@gmail.com wrote:

...

I find the entire USENET and eMail list thing utterly antediluvian, and wicked hard to use. Often, I can only barely remember that *maybe* something relevant was discussed months ago, but is now relevant to my current issue today. A "forum" is more

practical as a

...

tool for building a collective knowledge of the CentOS community. This eMail list just doesn't cut it for a "knowledge base"

built up of our collective experience.

Get yourself a gmail account and subscribe this list to it. The threaded presentation goes a long way, and a few additional minutes with the label setup tool can practically create your own personal forum layout, and if there are only a few things to catch up on you can quickly scan them under "All Mail" rather than having to check each of the different categories separately.

I read nearly all my email lists in gmail now ... but, increasingly, email user agents like Thunderbird have similar features if you don't like a web interface (which given your attraction to forums is probably not an issue). _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos

On Fri, 2008-05-16 at 08:00 -0700, Carol Anne Ogdin wrote:

I actually DO subscribe to this list via gmail. However, I seldom bother doing so through webmail, because I like my information to come to me, rather than spending my time logging on, waiting for pages to refresh, etc.

<snip>

My experience with RHEL/CentOS is not as deep, and I'm eager to learn. I'd just like to help bridge the gap that--to my observation--impedes knowledge transfer.

Carol Anne: Since you are subscribed to this wonderful mailing list, if you can, take the time to read all of the messages, not just the ones that you think apply to whatever you are interested in at the moment. YOU_WILL_LEARN! The Developers and many other extremely knowledgeable people participate in this list, daily, and you will learn, from their messages to the list. There is a Forum, and a Wiki, and you can learn there too, but this mailing list is, IMHO, your best route to learning and for support. Set your gmail up for IMAP, as Google suggests, and you will have everything in the list searchable, with the Google Search Engine, when you are using gmail on the web and you can search in your MUA, in your Desktop/Workstation, if you are offline. Lanny

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Carol Anne Ogdin caogdin@gmail.com wrote:

Jumping in late here: I sincerely wish that this list was maintained on any of the quality "bulletin board" or "Forum" tools. It would reduce my eMail load, allow me to zoom in on just the issues of interest to me at the moment, and I can eMail those posts to myself that are relevant to my own needs for further editing and documentation.

I find the entire USENET and eMail list thing utterly antediluvian, and wicked hard to use. Often, I can only barely remember that *maybe* something relevant was discussed months ago, but is now relevant to my current issue today. A "forum" is more practical as a tool for building a collective knowledge of the CentOS community. This eMail list just doesn't cut it for a "knowledge base" built up of our collective experience.

Of course, for those of you who still prefer this medium, a "forum" can eMail you posts, just like you see them today. But people who would like to search for a solution from a year or so ago could search the central resource.

--Carol Anne

I think this post gives us a good message. That is that, just like there are many people who hate the forums, there are many users who prefer the forums over the mailing lists.

From what I have been observing by participating in the BOTH worlds

for the last year or so, the number of people who are being helped in the forums outgrows that of the mailing lists. And if you do google searches, you tend to find forum posts more than mailing posts. BUT, my intention is not to make a comparison -- they just have different audience.

The point I want to make is that if you feel one method is not as well-served as the other, efforts should be made to make the other method equally good. CentOS provides the two major venues, and we should be able to choose whichever the one we feel more comfortable without sacrificing the quality of help we get. The "C" in CentOS is the driving force of the whole project. We, community members, as a whole always need to think how best we can help others.

My 2 cents worth,

Akemi

Thanks, Johnny, for your comments.

Can you post some URLs for CentOS forums you mentioned in your reply? I've searched high-and-low with no success.

The other thing I'd love is a link to a good RSS (or Atom) feed devoted to RHEL and/or CentOS. Any help would be most appreciated.

--Carol Anne

-----Original Message----- From: centos-bounces@centos.org [mailto:centos-bounces@centos.org] On Behalf Of Johnny Hughes Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 2:42 AM To: CentOS mailing list Subject: Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting

Akemi Yagi wrote:

...

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Carol Anne Ogdin

caogdin@gmail.com wrote:

...

...

Jumping in late here: I sincerely wish that this list was

maintained

...

...

on any of the quality "bulletin board" or "Forum" tools. It would reduce my eMail load, allow me to zoom in on just the issues of interest to me at the moment, and I can eMail those posts

to myself

...

...

that are relevant to my own needs for further editing and

documentation.

...

...

I find the entire USENET and eMail list thing utterly

antediluvian,

...

...

and wicked hard to use. Often, I can only barely remember that *maybe* something relevant was discussed months ago, but is now relevant to my current issue today. A "forum" is more

practical as a

...

...

tool for building a collective knowledge of the CentOS community. This eMail list just doesn't cut it for a "knowledge base"

built up of our collective experience.

...

...

Of course, for those of you who still prefer this medium,

a "forum"

...

...

can eMail you posts, just like you see them today. But people who would like to search for a solution from a year or so ago could search the central resource.

--Carol Anne

I think this post gives us a good message. That is that, just like there are many people who hate the forums, there are many users who prefer the forums over the mailing lists.

...

From what I have been observing by participating in the BOTH worlds

for the last year or so, the number of people who are being

helped in

...

the forums outgrows that of the mailing lists. And if you

do google

...

searches, you tend to find forum posts more than mailing

posts. BUT,

...

my intention is not to make a comparison -- they just have

different

...

audience.

The point I want to make is that if you feel one method is not as well-served as the other, efforts should be made to make the other method equally good. CentOS provides the two major venues, and we should be able to choose whichever the one we feel more comfortable without sacrificing the quality of help we get. The "C" in

CentOS is

...

the driving force of the whole project. We, community

members, as a

...

whole always need to think how best we can help others.

My 2 cents worth,

I just want to point out that there are forums for CentOS, we have several moderators and community members who answer questions there every day and we can akways use more users there answering questions.

You can also search and read this list in several places that are available in a threaded format ... like:

http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.centos.general

You can also search the archives using google and the site feature:

in a google search box, do:

site:http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos/ "Top Posting"

Regardless, forums, mailing lists and a wiki are all available for CentOS users ... and each medium is driven by "CentOS Users" who volunteer to participate for "CentOS Users" who are looking for help. We offer all 3 because different users prefer different methods.

That is what open source is all about ... pick the method you like and use it :D

Thanks, Johnny Hughes

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 7:59 AM, Matt Hyclak hyclak@math.ohiou.edu wrote:

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 07:54:26AM -0700, Carol Anne Ogdin enlightened us:

...

Thanks, Johnny, for your comments.

Can you post some URLs for CentOS forums you mentioned in your reply? I've searched high-and-low with no success.

www.centos.org -> Support -> Forums takes you to http://centos.org/modules/newbb/

...

The other thing I'd love is a link to a good RSS (or Atom) feed devoted to RHEL and/or CentOS. Any help would be most appreciated.

http://planet.centos.org/

http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos

Carol,

Just for your information. The CentOS forum has an RSS too. Scroll to the bottom of the forum page Matt referred to.

Akemi

On May 16, 2008, at 10:54 AM, Carol Anne Ogdin wrote:

Can you post some URLs for CentOS forums you mentioned in your reply? I've searched high-and-low with no success.

http://www.centos.org

in the navbar, look for Support->Forums.

or pick the *very first hit* from a Google:

http://www.google.com/search?q=centos+forums

or look at the "GettingHelp" page on the CentOS wiki:

http://wiki.centos.org/GettingHelp

please search slightly higher and lower :)

-steve

-- If this were played upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction. - Fabian, Twelfth Night, III,v

Akemi Yagi wrote:

I think this post gives us a good message. That is that, just like there are many people who hate the forums, there are many users who prefer the forums over the mailing lists.

That does not mean you go slaging off one communication medium in another. If IRC is the only thing that works for you, that does not mean its OK to go farking off in the lists and forums.

On the other hand, if you are here in the lists, its reasonable to expect people to make an effort to make communication easier. Just as any medium of communication would have guidelines and ways to implement them.

- KB

William Warren wrote:

Beyond casutic...who's slaging here karanbir? He expressed his opinion and last time i checked there wasn't a rule against that. While your reply was inflamatory you also have the right to fire back..however saying it's not ok to do something that wasn't against any of the rules of this forum is just being caustic for being caustic's sake.

Karanbir Singh wrote:

...

That does not mean you go slaging off one communication medium in another. If IRC is the only thing that works for you, that does not mean its OK to go farking off in the lists and forums.

I think you need to read the posts again, I am not being caustic for the sake of being caustic at all. My point is simply that if the lists dont work for you, leave. But if you intend to hang around you are expected to make an effort at being in sync with what the other longer term users on these lists expect.

eg. trimming posts and not top posting is a good start. Two very basic things, trivial to handle and execute, yet so many users dont bother to do.

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 4:58 PM, Johnny Hughes johnny@centos.org wrote:

OK ... you are officially an ass .. I will no longer reply to your mails or help you in any way.

Yes. When I signed on with CentOS it was explicitly written into my requirements that *I* be the only 'official' ass. Yes, a non-compete clause is involved, so can all just STEP OFF!

:-P

</humor>

I imagine that most of the folks subscribed are System Administrators, Engineers and Architects. I'd also leap to the unproven assumption that the majority are overworked, underpaid, stressed, and stuff like that. If that doesn't make for a bunch of terse, grumpy, and otherwise friendly-and-cheer-challenged folks at times, well, you're better folks than myself, which, admittedly, isn't all that difficult, and a little humor can go a long way.

Agreed to all, and I was just having some fun and trying to bring some humor to everyone's day. Thanks for having a sense of humor, I'll respectfully bow out now.

OK ... you are officially an ass .. I will no longer reply to your mails or help you in any way.

Wow. My apologies, I thought that was actually a productive reply, not even sure how you got offended, but I will apologize anyway, I don't intend to ever offend anyone.

On May 14, 2008, at 3:15 PM, Doug Tucker wrote:

Humor turned off for a minute, completely and honestly, can someone explain to me *why* this is the etiquette here? In every fashion, I find it sooo much harder to follow. Does it date back to some dead text based mail client that actually made this easier for some reason?

Humor turned back on:

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 9:58 PM, Doug Tucker tuckerd@engr.smu.edu wrote:

This is a matter of agreeing to disagree on the release of a kernel and a supported file system. If you had read my thread and subsequent paragraph you're taking issue with properly, you would have gotten that. My whole issue is around GFS, which is officially supported (someone else hijacked this thread with XFS which got more attention), and in my statement I said: "Keep in mind this is not an unsupported XFS that someone hijacked my thread with." So I'm agreeing that XFS should never be brought up in the same fashion as GFS, as it is not a supported file system. GFS is, and it is my opinion RH should release the 2 together.

Sorry pal, it's me who stole your thread with XFS. I feel obliged to give an answer although which I do not have to but I'll.

I've been so far away from CentOS/RHEL that I even did not know the difference between XFS and GFS which is officially supported by Redhat guys. And CentOS' guys kindness about giving us a chance to use XFS is really attracks my appreciation. Up to this was for my apology.

BUT (a big one);

People who prepare and maintain a distro have (and should have) many concerns in mind. Security is one of them and integrity is another. But in this situation, integrity is simply ignored (on the behalf of GFS situation because I backed down from my XFS related complains)

Disabling kernel upgrades simply solves the situation but raises some other questions about "What else can be broken with security apprehensions?"

I do not know which one to choose: - Absolutely not-working server because of missing updates - Maybe will be attacked server because of missing security updates.

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 11:50 PM, John R Pierce pierce@hogranch.com wrote:

btw, what is WITH all these lame gmail addresses? linuxlist ? centoslist ?? Do I call you Mr Linux, or Mr List ?

Nothing to do with gmail. About calling me, it's a nice thing but probably not needed. And I also know about usenet etiquette.

Well, I post in so many different threads and I do not want someone googling and finding all about me. Besides, you people have the right to ignore my-type people since not using real (or reallike nick)names.

Instead of deceiving people with different names on different platforms, I prefer being honest about hiding my i.d. and I think this is also my right (as your ignoring right)

But if it'll satisfy someone, I can choose some real-looking nicknames from now on :)

Thanks...

On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 12:40:22AM +0300, Linux wrote:

What a coincidence. That is the 1st time I live such a thing. Well, show me a way to prove.

/var/log/messages ?

This log is after update & reboot: "May 11 16:06:03 xxxxx kernel: XFS: failed to read root inode"

nothing more?

Apr 02 23:41:30 Installed: kmod-xfs.x86_64 0.4-1.2.6.18_53.1.14.el5

kmod-xfs for 2.6.18_53.1.14.el5

May 11 00:35:36 Installed: kernel.x86_64 2.6.18-53.1.19.el5 ... May 11 17:13:03 Installed: kmod-xfs.x86_64 0.4-1.2.6.18_53.1.19.el5

and the corresponding kmod-xfs module (2.6.18-53.1.19.el5)

According to this, there is a mystery in "May 11 16:06:03" because there WAS a kmod_xfs but it was 53.1.14, not 53.1.19 as updated kernel.

too bad you rebooted 1 hour before the kernel-xfs module update.

Tru

on 5-12-2008 3:47 PM Linux spake the following:

On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 1:15 AM, Tru Huynh tru-IFYaIzF+flcdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org wrote:

...

On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 12:40:22AM +0300, Linux wrote:

...

What a coincidence. That is the 1st time I live such a thing. Well, show me a way to prove.

/var/log/messages ?

Only a small part of it.

...

...

This log is after update & reboot: "May 11 16:06:03 xxxxx kernel: XFS: failed to read root inode"

nothing more?

Well, that is the only unexpected part. Just to show that XFS module was loaded for WRONG kernel. As you said, you newer saw before.

...

...

According to this, there is a mystery in "May 11 16:06:03" because there WAS a kmod_xfs but it was 53.1.14, not 53.1.19 as updated kernel.

too bad you rebooted 1 hour before the kernel-xfs module update.

When was kernel-xfs module updated in repository? Just that time? If so too bad CentOS folks do not update every piece of kernel as a whole in repositories. Where is integrity?

If not, "yum update" does not update everything at once. I have to run yum update twice maybe more. First it will load kernel then see that a new kernel is available, will go and bring its modules...

Still, it is a bit annoying and confusing. I am beginning to think whether XFS is really supported in CentOS :)

XFS is an add-on module that the CentOS developers added because people wanted it. The official filesystem of CentOS is the same one that upstream has in RHEL -- EXT3. To see if a filesystem is truly supported by a distro is to see if one can select it at install time. Everything else is added on for someone else's benefit.

Hello All;

Maybe, because XFS seems to be important, is it possible to build xfs right after the kernel src build?

Is this far more longer than only build the kernel?

Ok nobody pay you to do Centos, ok. Centos is a very good project, but i think it's not really constructive to say "ok, pay me and I will do it" :) You don't do Centos because you need money but because you like what you do.

Of course, forget my mail if XFS is a crap to build, but if a simple " add stuff in changelog xfs.spec; rpmbuild -ba --sign mycoolXFSmodul.src.rpm" is enough, maybe You could think to build xfs in the same time a kernel update is available ?

Regards

js.

Johnny Hughes a écrit :

Linux wrote:

...

On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 1:15 AM, Tru Huynh tru@centos.org wrote:

...

On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 12:40:22AM +0300, Linux wrote:

...

What a coincidence. That is the 1st time I live such a thing. Well, show me a way to prove.

/var/log/messages ?

Only a small part of it.

...

...

This log is after update & reboot: "May 11 16:06:03 xxxxx kernel: XFS: failed to read root inode"

nothing more?

Well, that is the only unexpected part. Just to show that XFS module was loaded for WRONG kernel. As you said, you newer saw before.

...

...

According to this, there is a mystery in "May 11 16:06:03" because there WAS a kmod_xfs but it was 53.1.14, not 53.1.19 as updated kernel.

too bad you rebooted 1 hour before the kernel-xfs module update.

When was kernel-xfs module updated in repository? Just that time? If so too bad CentOS folks do not update every piece of kernel as a whole in repositories. Where is integrity?

If not, "yum update" does not update everything at once. I have to run yum update twice maybe more. First it will load kernel then see that a new kernel is available, will go and bring its modules...

Still, it is a bit annoying and confusing. I am beginning to think whether XFS is really supported in CentOS :)

OK ... let me give you an official answer

red hat does not even release the the gfs kmods on the same day as the kernel, that is FULLY supported and even an added expense for rhel4.

we DO NOT update xfs (or the centosplus kernel) on the same day as the base centos kernels. We are NOT going to wait to release the main kernel security update for a day or more to get centosplus stuff also done.

xfs IS NOT SUPPORTED in the same way as the base centos distro is and xfs is not in RHEL.

Our 2 million users do not want to wait for the base kernel security updates for 2 extra days so that a very small group of people who use the xfs file system can get their updates at the same time.

It might take even longer to get these built as no one pays me to build them and I have a real job and a real life ... if you can't do one of these:

1. Build your own module.
2. Exclude the kernel and only update it when the modules are ready.

Then you can pay me $200.00 per hour and I will manage your server for you.

Thanks, Johnny Hughes

---

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CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 6:39 AM, Martyn Drake martyn@drake.org.uk wrote:

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 2:10 PM, js security@air-austral.com wrote:

...

Maybe, because XFS seems to be important, is it possible to build xfs right after the kernel src build?

Is this far more longer than only build the kernel?

Assuming that you've set it up as a module rather than actually compiling it into the kernel itself, it should be a case of just doing:

cd $KERNEL_SOURCE_TREE make fs/xfs/xfs.ko mkdir /lib/modules/$KERNEL_VERSION/kernel/fs cp fs/xfs/xfs.ko /lib/modules/$KERNEL_VERSION/kernel/fs/xfs

which will build the XFS module and stick it in the right place. Note that all that does not include the XFS userspace tools...

Making kernel modules is a bit more involved than that. Please see:

http://wiki.centos.org/HowTos/BuildingKernelModules

if you really feel like building modules yourself.

Akemi

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 9:10 AM, js security@air-austral.com wrote:

Maybe, because XFS seems to be important, is it possible to build xfs right after the kernel src build?

Is this far more longer than only build the kernel?

Ok nobody pay you to do Centos, ok. Centos is a very good project, but i think it's not really constructive to say "ok, pay me and I will do it" :) You don't do Centos because you need money but because you like what you do.

As a matter of not annoying volunteers and developers, you want to be careful about asking people to do what you can't or won't do yourself.