Alan,
I knew of the Dell article, as I have all of those saved for reference. [1] I was just wondering if you knew of any that were for someone knew to Linux. You know the Microsoft type tutorials that have screenshot with them. That's the question I get asked a lot of times from around my home area.
In turn when these users that are new to Linux they get discouraged when they can't visualy see pictures or have to edit some text file. They just use to doing things the M$ Way. CentOS could have a much broader user base (Huge), the biggest user base around if simple things like this could be done. i realize though it take volunteers to do this on the wiki.
[1] DKMS was originally meant for updating Dells server hardware (drivers) see: http://linux.dell.com/dkms/dkms-ols2004.pdf and Sys Admins, but has come further than that. Install DKMS. Install driver, hope like hell it works on kernel update
On 03/04/2008, John <jses27 at gmail.com> wrote:
Anyone on the List know of a good DKMS tutorial besides the one at linux.dell.com? Relating to drivers? I do not want bits and pieces, I need reliable facts
Other than looking at http://linux.del.com/dkms/dkms-ols2004.pdf and Section #2 of http://wiki.centos.org/HowTos/BuildingKernelModules (ignore the title of the article), what else do you need to know?
Alan. On 04/04/2008, Alan Bartlett <ajb.stxsl at googlemail.com> wrote:
Other than looking at http://linux.del.com/dkms/dkms-ols2004.pdf and Section #2 of http://wiki.centos.org/HowTos/BuildingKernelModules
Apologies for typo in URL. It is http://linux.dell.com/dkms/dkms-ols2004.pdfhttp://linux.del.com/dkms/dkms-ols2004.pdf
Alan.
John wrote:
Alan,
I knew of the Dell article, as I have all of those saved for reference. [1] I was just wondering if you knew of any that were for someone knew to Linux. You know the Microsoft type tutorials that have screenshot with them. That's the question I get asked a lot of times from around my home area.
In turn when these users that are new to Linux they get discouraged when they can't visualy see pictures or have to edit some text file. They just use to doing things the M$ Way. CentOS could have a much broader user base (Huge), the biggest user base around if simple things like this could be done. i realize though it take volunteers to do this on the wiki.
Hi John,
Apologies for not being Alan ;)
As an occasional Wiki author, I thought I'd offer you my personal insight on this topic. I try to write articles/documentation that is broad reaching hence why it tends to be command line based - not everyone has a GUI installed, so any guide that relies on GUI methods instantly fails to reach a section of the community. I firmly believe well written command line based documentation can and should be easy to follow, even for the novice user.
Also, IMHO GUI-based tools are not always a good thing. I remember struggling with the horrible up2date GUI interface in my Red Hat Linux days. It was only a GUI frontend to RPM (??) but it was buggy as hell. It didn't take me long to figure out it was far easier to manually download updates by ftp and apply them with 'rpm -Fvh *.rpm'. Things evolve and now we can simply do 'yum update'. Why add an additional layer of complexity where it isn't needed?
Whilst I sympathise with your observation, and I'm sure we all know users like that, CentOS isn't Windows and I wouldn't want it to be. I would rather we try to educate users to the Linux way of doing things rather than turn Linux into a Windows clone. I guess I feel the same about documentation to an extent.
Ned
On Sat, 2008-04-05 at 16:49 +0100, Ned Slider wrote:
John wrote:
Alan,
I knew of the Dell article, as I have all of those saved for reference. [1] I was just wondering if you knew of any that were for someone knew to Linux. You know the Microsoft type tutorials that have screenshot with them. That's the question I get asked a lot of times from around my home area.
In turn when these users that are new to Linux they get discouraged when they can't visualy see pictures or have to edit some text file. They just use to doing things the M$ Way. CentOS could have a much broader user base (Huge), the biggest user base around if simple things like this could be done. i realize though it take volunteers to do this on the wiki.
Hi John,
Apologies for not being Alan ;)
Got someones attention! That's great!
As an occasional Wiki author, I thought I'd offer you my personal insight on this topic. I try to write articles/documentation that is broad reaching hence why it tends to be command line based - not everyone has a GUI installed, so any guide that relies on GUI methods instantly fails to reach a section of the community. I firmly believe well written command line based documentation can and should be easy to follow, even for the novice user.
Correct in ways; CentOS is more touted to a server based community. Yea the GUI method instanly Fails the experianced part of the community. My problem lies in this: People these days cant not afford or justify the cost of Windows. Those are the ones that CentOS makes the biggest impression on. Much less Microsoft Office. Who has a couple hundred dollars for that?
Also, IMHO GUI-based tools are not always a good thing. I remember struggling with the horrible up2date GUI interface in my Red Hat Linux days. It was only a GUI frontend to RPM (??) but it was buggy as hell. It didn't take me long to figure out it was far easier to manually download updates by ftp and apply them with 'rpm -Fvh *.rpm'. Things evolve and now we can simply do 'yum update'.
The Apache GUI tool is broken it never works. The samba one don't always work. A text user interface intimidates a Windows user. That's like a new user installing CentOS to a machine that only has 128MBs of RAM. After complete install. what happens? It gets booted into runlevel 3 and they just said the heck with this. Yumex has involded just as well as Synaptic and just as good but the windows user knows nothing of it. Applications | Add Remove Software is about the limit for the new user.
"Why add an additional layer of complexity where it isn't needed?" Apart from new users Windows system admins are even terrified of a command line.
Whilst I sympathise with your observation, and I'm sure we all know users like that, CentOS isn't Windows and I wouldn't want it to be. I would rather we try to educate users to the Linux way of doing things rather than turn Linux into a Windows clone. I guess I feel the same about documentation to an extent.
The catch here is feeding the new user little by little. Ease them into it and they will never know it I am not saying turn CentOS into a Windows Clone. Yes, I agree educating the user to the linux way of doing things
Idea: A separate Wiki for the new users. Don't have links on it pointing external sites of how tos. Just have all the basic how tos; Burning the centos cdrom in windows with a open source tool like Infra View, Nero, or Easy CD Creator. Using the network GUI Config Tool for Dial Up Access and DSL or Cable Internet and Local Intranet. How to add a user with the GUI tool. Thing of this sort is like putting the iceing on the cake and keeping them and not letting them stay to another Distro.
Ned
CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
John wrote:
Idea: A separate Wiki for the new users. Don't have links on it pointing external sites of how tos. Just have all the basic how tos; Burning the centos cdrom in windows with a open source tool like Infra View, Nero, or Easy CD Creator. Using the network GUI Config Tool for Dial Up Access and DSL or Cable Internet and Local Intranet. How to add a user with the GUI tool. Thing of this sort is like putting the iceing on the cake and keeping them and not letting them stay to another Distro.
Better yet, show how to do the same thing with 10 screenshots of mouseclicks and dialog boxes with the GUI or with a couple of command lines that they can paste from the tutorial into a command window.
As soon as someone has to do it more than once, they'll start to appreciate the 2nd way.
On Sat, 2008-04-05 at 12:35 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
John wrote:
Idea: A separate Wiki for the new users. Don't have links on it pointing external sites of how tos. Just have all the basic how tos; Burning the centos cdrom in windows with a open source tool like Infra View, Nero, or Easy CD Creator. Using the network GUI Config Tool for Dial Up Access and DSL or Cable Internet and Local Intranet. How to add a user with the GUI tool. Thing of this sort is like putting the iceing on the cake and keeping them and not letting them stay to another Distro.
Better yet, show how to do the same thing with 10 screenshots of mouseclicks and dialog boxes with the GUI or with a couple of command lines that they can paste from the tutorial into a command window.
As soon as someone has to do it more than once, they'll start to appreciate the 2nd way.
No they will just give up on CentOS and go else where. If, (a big if) I were the Cent OS project Leader my biggest goal would be to attract the biggest user base possible. I'm sure he's trying the best he can now. (A Good Reason it is still around). Usability is everything. The is more than one way to skin a cat yes in deed.
In theory the known GUIs that work, the configuration should only have to be done once and not a second time. Maybe I need to create GUI Frontends that just plain out work. As a side, note I do understand some things in Linux is not for the Faint at Heart.
John wrote:
Idea: A separate Wiki for the new users. Don't have links on it pointing external sites of how tos. Just have all the basic how tos; Burning the centos cdrom in windows with a open source tool like Infra View, Nero, or Easy CD Creator. Using the network GUI Config Tool for Dial Up Access and DSL or Cable Internet and Local Intranet. How to add a user with the GUI tool. Thing of this sort is like putting the iceing on the cake and keeping them and not letting them stay to another Distro.
Better yet, show how to do the same thing with 10 screenshots of mouseclicks and dialog boxes with the GUI or with a couple of command lines that they can paste from the tutorial into a command window.
As soon as someone has to do it more than once, they'll start to appreciate the 2nd way.
No they will just give up on CentOS and go else where.
By 'doing it more than once' I meant on a second machine, something a lot of people have even for home/family use. In a GUI, things are just as slow and cumbersome every time, no matter how many times you do them. On the command line, if you saved the commands - or got them from an instructional listing in the first place, you just paste the same set of commands into a terminal window.
If, (a big if) I were the Cent OS project Leader my biggest goal would be to attract the biggest user base possible. I'm sure he's trying the best he can now. (A Good Reason it is still around). Usability is everything. The is more than one way to skin a cat yes in deed.
In theory the known GUIs that work, the configuration should only have to be done once and not a second time.
Once on every machine. Every time you install an OS. And being a new user is a one-time thing.
Maybe I need to create GUI Frontends that just plain out work. As a side, note I do understand some things in Linux is not for the Faint at Heart.
One things GUIs can do is present a bunch of pre-set defaults or pick up the current settings so you only have to change a few particular items, and they can check the ranges and syntax of the entries before trying to apply them. Webmin does a fair job on this considering the wild variation in the applications it offers to manage, but you still have to generally understand what the application does and what the options mean in order to use it. A task-oriented tutorial using webmin might get people through some operations where they'd have trouble with man pages.
On 05/04/2008, Les Mikesell lesmikesell@gmail.com wrote:
On the command line, if you saved the commands - or got them from an instructional listing in the first place, you just paste the same set of commands into a terminal window.
Three comments from me:
(1) Regarding what Les wrote (above), I can say that the three Wiki "Kernel" HowTos have been written in such a way that the command lines shown in those articles *can* be copied (from a GUI) and pasted (into a CLI/TUI). I'm sure that same is true for many other WIki articles.
(2) We must not loose sight of what CentOS basically is. CentOS == RHEL less RH. A stable, server orientated OS. On the fora, we often see evidence that CentOS is believed to be similar to *other* distros (that are more suitable for laptops & "home" use) and that it, CentOS, can be loaded onto typical laptops or home PCs. Then the grumbling starts about the non-operation of a bottom-of-the-range NIC or video controller or how multi-media doesn't work straight out of the box. The complaints that really irritate me are those that end with ". . . . whilst 'foo' (or 'bar' or 'xyzzy' or 'y2') runs o.k. on my hardware. So why doesn't CentOS?"
(3) The CentOS-docs list. Anne, the last item I received was dated April 3rd.
Alan.
On Sat, 2008-04-05 at 20:02 +0100, Alan Bartlett wrote:
On 05/04/2008, Les Mikesell lesmikesell@gmail.com wrote: On the command line, if you saved the commands - or got them from an instructional listing in the first place, you just paste the same set of commands into a terminal window.
Three comments from me:
(1) Regarding what Les wrote (above), I can say that the three Wiki "Kernel" HowTos have been written in such a way that the command lines shown in those articles *can* be copied (from a GUI) and pasted (into a CLI/TUI). I'm sure that same is true for many other WIki articles.
(2) We must not loose sight of what CentOS basically is. CentOS == RHEL less RH. A stable, server orientated OS. On the fora, we often see evidence that CentOS is believed to be similar to *other* distros (that are more suitable for laptops & "home" use) and that it, CentOS, can be loaded onto typical laptops or home PCs. Then the grumbling starts about the non-operation of a bottom-of-the-range NIC or video controller or how multi-media doesn't work straight out of the box. The complaints that really irritate me are those that end with ". . . . whilst 'foo' (or 'bar' or 'xyzzy' or 'y2') runs o.k. on my hardware. So why doesn't CentOS?"
"So why doesn't CentOS?" CentOS is for High End Server Hardware. The most attracted feature it has to a new user is "my computer has been running for a whole week. "Stability" Windows begs for that.
The most disliked option for CentOS that I see was the option to not do a spin of the Client, Workstation and Server versions. Ohh, how it was so easy for me to tell a client get the Workstation version and Select install everything. I guess the reason for doing so was not enough resources.
Similar to other Distros: CentOS Does not even begin to compare to the usability of Ubuntu. But what can you say? Ubuntu is backed by a Multi Million Dollar Company.
Multimedia: I'll save that one for later. :-) I have an idea for that...
(3) The CentOS-docs list. Anne, the last item I received was dated April 3rd.
Alan.
CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
on 4-5-2008 12:26 PM John spake the following:
On Sat, 2008-04-05 at 20:02 +0100, Alan Bartlett wrote:
On 05/04/2008, Les Mikesell lesmikesell-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org wrote: On the command line, if you saved the commands - or got them from an instructional listing in the first place, you just paste the same set of commands into a terminal window.
Three comments from me:
(1) Regarding what Les wrote (above), I can say that the three Wiki "Kernel" HowTos have been written in such a way that the command lines shown in those articles *can* be copied (from a GUI) and pasted (into a CLI/TUI). I'm sure that same is true for many other WIki articles.
(2) We must not loose sight of what CentOS basically is. CentOS == RHEL less RH. A stable, server orientated OS. On the fora, we often see evidence that CentOS is believed to be similar to *other* distros (that are more suitable for laptops & "home" use) and that it, CentOS, can be loaded onto typical laptops or home PCs. Then the grumbling starts about the non-operation of a bottom-of-the-range NIC or video controller or how multi-media doesn't work straight out of the box. The complaints that really irritate me are those that end with ". . . . whilst 'foo' (or 'bar' or 'xyzzy' or 'y2') runs o.k. on my hardware. So why doesn't CentOS?"
"So why doesn't CentOS?" CentOS is for High End Server Hardware. The most attracted feature it has to a new user is "my computer has been running for a whole week. "Stability" Windows begs for that.
The most disliked option for CentOS that I see was the option to not do a spin of the Client, Workstation and Server versions. Ohh, how it was so easy for me to tell a client get the Workstation version and Select install everything. I guess the reason for doing so was not enough resources.
Similar to other Distros: CentOS Does not even begin to compare to the usability of Ubuntu. But what can you say? Ubuntu is backed by a Multi Million Dollar Company.
Multimedia: I'll save that one for later. :-) I have an idea for that...
(3) The CentOS-docs list. Anne, the last item I received was dated April 3rd.
But the last "high end servers" I bought did not have exotic and newest of the new hardware. They had fairly low end graphics with no need for 3d or even opengl support. The HP servers I have bought just worked with CentOS. Sure I could go to their website and download a driver disk, but it was not needed. CentOS even worked with the Compaq SAS raid controller.
What is probably more frustrating to newbies is their buying of a desktop board and filling it with memory and trying to call it a server. That is a big difference to actual server hardware.
Alan Bartlett wrote:
(2) We must not loose sight of what CentOS basically is. CentOS == RHEL less RH. A stable, server orientated OS. On the fora, we often see evidence that CentOS is believed to be similar to *other* distros (that are more suitable for laptops & "home" use) and that it, CentOS, can be loaded onto typical laptops or home PCs. Then the grumbling starts about the non-operation of a bottom-of-the-range NIC or video controller or how multi-media doesn't work straight out of the box. The complaints that really irritate me are those that end with ". . . . whilst 'foo' (or 'bar' or 'xyzzy' or 'y2') runs o.k. on my hardware. So why doesn't CentOS?"
This is more a symptom of the kernel age than anything else, and with the backported drivers that sometimes end up in CentOS, this is subject to change as the minor version numbers get their install images rebuilt. And with the CentOS plus kernel, this doesn't necessarily track RHEL exactly either. Is there a place to find out whether a certain piece of hardware will work that stays up to date with the updates?
On Sat, 2008-04-05 at 14:54 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
Alan Bartlett wrote:
(2) We must not loose sight of what CentOS basically is. CentOS == RHEL less RH. A stable, server orientated OS. On the fora, we often see evidence that CentOS is believed to be similar to *other* distros (that are more suitable for laptops & "home" use) and that it, CentOS, can be loaded onto typical laptops or home PCs. Then the grumbling starts about the non-operation of a bottom-of-the-range NIC or video controller or how multi-media doesn't work straight out of the box. The complaints that really irritate me are those that end with ". . . . whilst 'foo' (or 'bar' or 'xyzzy' or 'y2') runs o.k. on my hardware. So why doesn't CentOS?"
This is more a symptom of the kernel age than anything else, and with the backported drivers that sometimes end up in CentOS, this is subject to change as the minor version numbers get their install images rebuilt. And with the CentOS plus kernel, this doesn't necessarily track RHEL exactly either. Is there a place to find out whether a certain piece of hardware will work that stays up to date with the updates?
I thought you can get a list of the provided modules with each kernel update from the kernel source code it self. for instance. go to the directory in question and execute #] ls >log then you have a complete text listing of them.
The Kernel Developer should have a list of such drivers to work. "He or She would have to. Wouldn't they??
On Sat, 2008-04-05 at 14:54 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
Alan Bartlett wrote:
(2) We must not loose sight of what CentOS basically is. CentOS == RHEL less RH. A stable, server orientated OS. On the fora, we often see evidence that CentOS is believed to be similar to *other* distros (that are more suitable for laptops & "home" use) and that it, CentOS, can be loaded onto typical laptops or home PCs. Then the grumbling starts about the non-operation of a bottom-of-the-range NIC or video controller or how multi-media doesn't work straight out of the box. The complaints that really irritate me are those that end with ". . . . whilst 'foo' (or 'bar' or 'xyzzy' or 'y2') runs o.k. on my hardware. So why doesn't CentOS?"
This is more a symptom of the kernel age than anything else, and with the backported drivers that sometimes end up in CentOS, this is subject to change as the minor version numbers get their install images rebuilt. And with the CentOS plus kernel, this doesn't necessarily track RHEL exactly either. Is there a place to find out whether a certain piece of hardware will work that stays up to date with the updates?
Ignore the ls >log command. it would take a lil more than that after looking at the kernell source code. Slightly bit more complicated than that.
On Saturday 05 April 2008 22:13, Anne Wilson wrote:
On Saturday 05 April 2008 20:02:08 Alan Bartlett wrote:
(3) The CentOS-docs list. Anne, the last item I received was dated April 3rd.
In the morning I'll go to the member prefs page and see if I can see what's wrong. Thanks
Nothing to do with prefs. A procmail error. Duh! I should have realised long before this.
Anne
On Sat, 2008-04-05 at 13:25 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
John wrote:
Idea: A separate Wiki for the new users. Don't have links on it pointing external sites of how tos. Just have all the basic how tos; Burning the centos cdrom in windows with a open source tool like Infra View, Nero, or Easy CD Creator. Using the network GUI Config Tool for Dial Up Access and DSL or Cable Internet and Local Intranet. How to add a user with the GUI tool. Thing of this sort is like putting the iceing on the cake and keeping them and not letting them stay to another Distro.
Better yet, show how to do the same thing with 10 screenshots of mouseclicks and dialog boxes with the GUI or with a couple of command lines that they can paste from the tutorial into a command window.
As soon as someone has to do it more than once, they'll start to appreciate the 2nd way.
No they will just give up on CentOS and go else where.
By 'doing it more than once' I meant on a second machine, something a lot of people have even for home/family use. In a GUI, things are just as slow and cumbersome every time, no matter how many times you do them. On the command line, if you saved the commands - or got them from an instructional listing in the first place, you just paste the same set of commands into a terminal window.
If, (a big if) I were the Cent OS project Leader my biggest goal would be to attract the biggest user base possible. I'm sure he's trying the best he can now. (A Good Reason it is still around). Usability is everything. The is more than one way to skin a cat yes in deed.
In theory the known GUIs that work, the configuration should only have to be done once and not a second time.
Once on every machine. Every time you install an OS. And being a new user is a one-time thing.
Maybe I need to create GUI Frontends that just plain out work. As a side, note I do understand some things in Linux is not for the Faint at Heart.
One things GUIs can do is present a bunch of pre-set defaults or pick up the current settings so you only have to change a few particular items, and they can check the ranges and syntax of the entries before trying to apply them. Webmin does a fair job on this considering the wild variation in the applications it offers to manage, but you still have to generally understand what the application does and what the options mean in order to use it. A task-oriented tutorial using webmin might get people through some operations where they'd have trouble with man pages.
Case in Point Here Now: My sister has been using Linux for a year now. I can see her now when I tell her to install Webmin, Open a Browser and type http://localhost:port_number. Now that's getting into Admin territory not the user base. Although that's a better idea than most would concieve of.
When she needs something done that does not have a GUI or Pictorial directions it's like me baby sitting my son hand in hand. Having things of this nature is saying CentOS is Competent Enough to stand on its' own two feet and not rely on the outside world for how to do something.
Ahh, there was mention of the User Documentation in another mail from March, that for some of it I even can't make heads or tails out of it. Some things still need a How To where it is in the User Docs or not.
John wrote:
One things GUIs can do is present a bunch of pre-set defaults or pick up
the current settings so you only have to change a few particular items, and they can check the ranges and syntax of the entries before trying to apply them. Webmin does a fair job on this considering the wild variation in the applications it offers to manage, but you still have to generally understand what the application does and what the options mean in order to use it. A task-oriented tutorial using webmin might get people through some operations where they'd have trouble with man pages.
Case in Point Here Now: My sister has been using Linux for a year now. I can see her now when I tell her to install Webmin, Open a Browser and type http://localhost:port_number.
There's an rpm for the webmin package (somewhere...) and you can bookmark the browser link. The remaining problem is that all it really can do is help you get the syntax right.
Now that's getting into Admin territory not the user base. Although that's a better idea than most would concieve of.
The issue that isn't going to go away even if you try to cover it up is that you have the full range of administrative decisions and commands at your disposal and, depending on what you want to change, you may need them.
When she needs something done that does not have a GUI or Pictorial directions it's like me baby sitting my son hand in hand.
The first question is what a new user needs that isn't done by default and fix it so it doesn't need to be done at all. The only problematic parts are the ones that need questionably legal components (mutimedia codecs, etc.).
Having things of this nature is saying CentOS is Competent Enough to stand on its' own two feet and not rely on the outside world for how to do something.
But, is the 'something' you want to do more like picking out a cold remedy from the corner drugstore or doing major surgery. You have the full range of tools for both, but some details need a little more thought than others.
Ahh, there was mention of the User Documentation in another mail from March, that for some of it I even can't make heads or tails out of it. Some things still need a How To where it is in the User Docs or not.
'Some things' is a pretty broad range.
On Sat, 2008-04-05 at 15:12 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
John wrote:
One things GUIs can do is present a bunch of pre-set defaults or pick up
the current settings so you only have to change a few particular items, and they can check the ranges and syntax of the entries before trying to apply them. Webmin does a fair job on this considering the wild variation in the applications it offers to manage, but you still have to generally understand what the application does and what the options mean in order to use it. A task-oriented tutorial using webmin might get people through some operations where they'd have trouble with man pages.
Case in Point Here Now: My sister has been using Linux for a year now. I can see her now when I tell her to install Webmin, Open a Browser and type http://localhost:port_number.
There's an rpm for the webmin package (somewhere...) and you can bookmark the browser link. The remaining problem is that all it really can do is help you get the syntax right.
Well that's a women for you though. Now I just started an argument. But wait that is only just One not all of you women.
Now that's getting into Admin territory not the user base. Although that's a better idea than most would concieve of.
The issue that isn't going to go away even if you try to cover it up is that you have the full range of administrative decisions and commands at your disposal and, depending on what you want to change, you may need them.
But 75% don't know how to. All they know is they downloaded the cds. Took them a week to figure out how to make a bootable install disk. Then finally 24 hours to install the OS. Six hours to get on the Internet. Another 5 hours to setup email.
Email is a good one "Evolution" I can devote time to that also. Configuration with something like GMail.
When she needs something done that does not have a GUI or Pictorial directions it's like me baby sitting my son hand in hand.
The first question is what a new user needs that isn't done by default and fix it so it doesn't need to be done at all. The only problematic parts are the ones that need questionably legal components (mutimedia codecs, etc.).
Would be nice to have a Multimedia Install Disk??? But then there's all the Legal questions
Having things of this nature is saying CentOS is Competent Enough to stand on its' own two feet and not rely on the outside world for how to do something.
But, is the 'something' you want to do more like picking out a cold remedy from the corner drugstore or doing major surgery. You have the full range of tools for both, but some details need a little more thought than others.
I'll send a mail to the Docs List for discussion of a few.
Ahh, there was mention of the User Documentation in another mail from March, that for some of it I even can't make heads or tails out of it. Some things still need a How To where it is in the User Docs or not.
'Some things' is a pretty broad range.
John wrote on Sat, 05 Apr 2008 16:52:03 -0400:
But 75% don't know how to. All they know is they downloaded the cds. Took them a week to figure out how to make a bootable install disk. Then finally 24 hours to install the OS. Six hours to get on the Internet. Another 5 hours to setup email.
CentOS is *not* for users new to Linux or Unix-like operatings systems. It isn't. Full stop.
Kai
Kai Schaetzl wrote on Sun, 27 Apr 2008 12:31:14 +0200:
John wrote on Sat, 05 Apr 2008 16:52:03 -0400:
Hm, just to clarify, I don't know where this message came from, I wrote it weeks ago. It must have been on hold and accidently released much too late. Obviously, it doesn't make sense to add such a comment to an old thread three weeks later.
Kai
It was a Bounced message.
John
-----Original Message----- From: centos-bounces@centos.org [mailto:centos-bounces@centos.org] On Behalf Of Kai Schaetzl Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 2:31 PM To: centos@centos.org Subject: Re: [CentOS] DKMS
Kai Schaetzl wrote on Sun, 27 Apr 2008 12:31:14 +0200:
John wrote on Sat, 05 Apr 2008 16:52:03 -0400:
Hm, just to clarify, I don't know where this message came from, I wrote it weeks ago. It must have been on hold and accidently released much too late. Obviously, it doesn't make sense to add such a comment to an old thread three weeks later.
Kai
-- Kai Schätzl, Berlin, Germany Get your web at Conactive Internet Services: http://www.conactive.com
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John wrote:
The catch here is feeding the new user little by little. Ease them into it and they will never know it I am not saying turn CentOS into a Windows Clone. Yes, I agree educating the user to the linux way of doing things
Some good feedback John.
I'm thinking the choice of distro is key for the first time user. They need as much stuff to just work as possible so limiting the amount of tasks they need to initially perform to get the box running satisfactorily. Distros that have a strict interpretation of open source/GPL and don't include 3rd party proprietary drivers, plugins, applications etc probably aren't the easiest for new users. I believe there are distros out there that either include these by default or aim to make it very easy for users to add/enable them. Maybe one of these types of distros would be more suitable than CentOS, and allow new users a more shallow learning curve. Then, when they are a little more comfortable with their new OS they can think about migrating to a more "mature" distro such as CentOS.
I often say to new users that learning Linux is like learning to speak a new language. Just because you are fluent in English, doesn't mean you will be able to pick up a novel written in French/German/Spanish and immediately read and/or understand it. The same is true here - those 10+ years of experience you have using Windows counts for nothing and doesn't entitle you to pick up a Linux CD and be able to use it - the learning curve is steep. I think people's expectations are unrealistic if they think they can throw in a Linux CD and expect to achieve everything they were able to do in Windows in a weekend.
TBH, Windows is no different - you show me an average home user that's never used Windows before who could configure a network or printer. Just because PCs are sold as consumer items, doesn't make it so. If you went out and bought a new car, would you expect to be able to drive it home if you'd never had a driving lesson? I could go on with the analogies but I suspect I'm preaching to the converted and you understand the point :)
On Saturday 05 April 2008 15:58, John wrote:
[1] I was just wondering if you knew of any that were for someone knew to Linux. You know the Microsoft type tutorials that have screenshot with them. That's the question I get asked a lot of times from around my home area.
On any subject you choose, try google with 'linux subjectname howto'. There are some really good ones out there. They may not be about your particular distro - some of the best ones are from gentoo people - but you'll find that for the most part they are extremely helpful.
I understand why you want screenshots - in the early days there are language problems :-)
Anne
On Sat, 2008-04-05 at 17:10 +0100, Anne Wilson wrote:
On Saturday 05 April 2008 15:58, John wrote:
[1] I was just wondering if you knew of any that were for someone knew to Linux. You know the Microsoft type tutorials that have screenshot with them. That's the question I get asked a lot of times from around my home area.
On any subject you choose, try google with 'linux subjectname howto'. There are some really good ones out there. They may not be about your particular distro - some of the best ones are from gentoo people - but you'll find that for the most part they are extremely helpful.
Gentoo: You Hit the Nail on the Head. Ubuntu also.
I understand why you want screenshots - in the early days there are language problems :-)
It's not really what I want. It is tons of other users.
Anne _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
On 05/04/2008, Anne Wilson cannewilson@googlemail.com wrote:
I understand why you want screenshots - in the early days there are language problems :-)
As Anne says, above, "A picture is worth a thousand words." I agree.
John wrote:
I knew of the Dell article, as I have all of those saved for reference. [1] I was just wondering if you knew of any that were for someone knew to Linux. You know the Microsoft type tutorials that have screenshot with them. That's the question I get asked a lot of times from around my home area.
Answering your question, John: Sorry, no. I don't know of any tutorials on this subject that would be appropriate for anyone new to a Linux based OS. When I initially read your request, I naively assumed you were asking for a straightforward document listing the dkms actions for your own use.
On Sat, 2008-04-05 at 16:49 +0100, Ned Slider wrote:
Whilst I sympathise with your observation, and I'm sure we all know users like that, CentOS isn't Windows and I wouldn't want it to be. I would rather we try to educate users to the Linux way of doing things rather than turn Linux into a Windows clone. I guess I feel the same about documentation to an extent.
Ned and I have a very similar point of view here.
John's latest words:
Idea: A separate Wiki for the new users. Don't have links on it pointing external sites of how tos. Just have all the basic how tos; Burning the centos cdrom in windows with a open source tool like Infra View, Nero, or Easy CD Creator. Using the network GUI Config Tool for Dial Up Access and DSL or Cable Internet and Local Intranet. How to add a user with the GUI tool. Thing of this sort is like putting the iceing on the cake and keeping them and not letting them stay to another Distro.
Ned, do I hear someone volunteering to write a new Wiki section? (I don't think a *separate* Wiki for the new users, be they M$ Windoze departees or not, is a good idea.) Perhaps this discussion should be continued on the CentOS-docs list?
Alan.
On Sat, 2008-04-05 at 18:01 +0100, Alan Bartlett wrote:
On 05/04/2008, Anne Wilson cannewilson@googlemail.com wrote: I understand why you want screenshots - in the early days there are language problems :-)
As Anne says, above, "A picture is worth a thousand words." I agree.
John wrote:
I knew of the Dell article, as I have all of those saved for reference. [1] I was just wondering if you knew of any that were for someone knew to Linux. You know the Microsoft type tutorials that have screenshot with them. That's the question I get asked a lot of times from around my home area.Answering your question, John: Sorry, no. I don't know of any tutorials on this subject that would be appropriate for anyone new to a Linux based OS. When I initially read your request, I naively assumed you were asking for a straightforward document listing the dkms actions for your own use.
On Sat, 2008-04-05 at 16:49 +0100, Ned Slider wrote:
Whilst I sympathise with your observation, and I'm sure we all know users like that, CentOS isn't Windows and I wouldn't want it to be.
I
would rather we try to educate users to the Linux way of doing
things
rather than turn Linux into a Windows clone. I guess I feel the same about documentation to an extent.
Ned and I have a very similar point of view here.
John's latest words:
Idea: A separate Wiki for the new users. Don't have links on it
pointing
external sites of how tos. Just have all the basic how tos; Burning
the
centos cdrom in windows with a open source tool like Infra View,
Nero,
or Easy CD Creator. Using the network GUI Config Tool for Dial Up
Access
and DSL or Cable Internet and Local Intranet. How to add a user with
the
GUI tool. Thing of this sort is like putting the iceing on the cake
and
keeping them and not letting them stay to another Distro.
Ned, do I hear someone volunteering to write a new Wiki section? (I don't think a *separate* Wiki for the new users, be they M$ Windoze departees or not, is a good idea.) Perhaps this discussion should be continued on the CentOS-docs list?
Alan
Maybe I need to Subscribe to it later today. """Ned, do I hear someone volunteering to write a new Wiki section?""" Possibly So. I have the extra time on weekends to give to it.
. _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
On Saturday 05 April 2008 18:18:47 John wrote:
Ned, do I hear someone volunteering to write a new Wiki section? (I don't think a *separate* Wiki for the new users, be they M$ Windoze departees or not, is a good idea.) Perhaps this discussion should be continued on the CentOS-docs list?
Alan
Maybe I need to Subscribe to it later today. """Ned, do I hear someone volunteering to write a new Wiki section?""" Possibly So. I have the extra time on weekends to give to it.
Now there's a point. I subscribed at the beginning of March and haven't received anything from them since 3rd March. I'd better try to find out why.
Anne
On Sat, 2008-04-05 at 19:17 +0100, Anne Wilson wrote:
On Saturday 05 April 2008 18:18:47 John wrote:
Ned, do I hear someone volunteering to write a new Wiki section? (I don't think a *separate* Wiki for the new users, be they M$ Windoze departees or not, is a good idea.) Perhaps this discussion should be continued on the CentOS-docs list?
Alan
Maybe I need to Subscribe to it later today. """Ned, do I hear someone volunteering to write a new Wiki section?""" Possibly So. I have the extra time on weekends to give to it.
Now there's a point. I subscribed at the beginning of March and haven't received anything from them since 3rd March. I'd better try to find out why.
Anne
Anne you have to make an account on the Wiki then subcribe to the Docs List. i just made one. Maybe their a lil slow or lazy? LOL
CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
On Saturday 05 April 2008 19:47:43 John wrote:
Now there's a point. I subscribed at the beginning of March and haven't received anything from them since 3rd March. I'd better try to find out why.
Anne
Anne you have to make an account on the Wiki then subcribe to the Docs List. i just made one. Maybe their a lil slow or lazy? LOL
I did. I have 7 messages over a period of two days, then nada.
Anne
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Alan Bartlett -
Anne Wilson -
John -
Kai Schaetzl -
Les Mikesell -
Ned Slider -
Scott Silva