Karanbir Singh wrote:
And yea, working on setting up a sort of list to handle much of this semi OT traffic. More news on that around Wed next week, dint ask about it now.
Off course people are going to ask. In my opinion as long as a topic is marked OT, it is preferable to one not marked but one in which the OP has not even done basic research on his problem.
One distro had a "brainflash" a number of years ago - create a list for expert users and one for newbies. It didn't take long for the newbies to realise that there was no one to help and so flooded the "expert list". This put off the "experts".
On some mailing lists, long time users are put off by the flood of posts by newbies who don't even conform to the list guidelines. Some pay back by not replying to those in violation without as much as a hint.
Would a new list really solve anything or would it close one door and open another?
Regards, Vandaman.
On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 4:33 PM, Vandaman vandaman2002-rt@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Karanbir Singh wrote:
And yea, working on setting up a sort of list to handle much of this semi OT traffic. More news on that around Wed next week, dint ask about it now.
Off course people are going to ask. In my opinion as long as a topic is marked OT, it is preferable to one not marked but one in which the OP has not even done basic research on his problem.
One distro had a "brainflash" a number of years ago - create a list for expert users and one for newbies. It didn't take long for the newbies to realise that there was no one to help and so flooded the "expert list". This put off the "experts".
On some mailing lists, long time users are put off by the flood of posts by newbies who don't even conform to the list guidelines. Some pay back by not replying to those in violation without as much as a hint.
Would a new list really solve anything or would it close one door and open another?
A CentOS social list would allow the crumedgeon'ing to happen off the main list and for users looking for ISPs or other CentOS community recommended wares/services.
I seriously doubt they would be talking newbie/expert lists, as I believe the whole purpose of the lists is to share your knowledge with the less knowledgable. If it were all experts there would be no traffic!
-Ross
Vandaman wrote:
Off course people are going to ask. In my opinion as long as a topic is marked OT, it is preferable to one not marked but one in which the OP has not even done basic research on his problem.
It may be preferable to YOU, but marking something OT doesn't stop it wasting MY bandwidth or clogging up MY inbox does it?
Your latter point is a separate issue that has no relevance to this discussion.
Ned Slider wrote:
It may be preferable to YOU, but marking something OT doesn't stop it wasting MY bandwidth or clogging up MY inbox does it? Your latter point is a separate issue that has no relevance to this discussion.
If you cannot understand what is wrong with using the mailing list as your first port of call instead of a basic google search you may need brain surgery.
It's not a waste of bandwidth to post ontopic stuff that is easily solved by simple google searches or reading the docs?
Regards, Vandaman.
Vandaman wrote:
Ned Slider wrote:
It may be preferable to YOU, but marking something OT doesn't stop it wasting MY bandwidth or clogging up MY inbox does it? Your latter point is a separate issue that has no relevance to this discussion.
If you cannot understand what is wrong with using the mailing list as your first port of call instead of a basic google search you may need brain surgery.
I understand very well thank you, but as I said above it has no relevance to the topic of an OFF TOPIC mailing list. I was referring to mails that have no place on the list in the first place!
It's not a waste of bandwidth to post ontopic stuff that is easily solved by simple google searches or reading the docs?
Vandaman wrote on Fri, 3 Oct 2008 21:15:36 +0000 (GMT):
If you cannot understand what is wrong with using the mailing list as your first port of call instead of a basic google search you may need brain surgery.
Can you please review your behavior and stop this now! Now! Thanks.
Kai
On Fri, Oct 03, 2008, Ned Slider wrote:
Vandaman wrote:
Off course people are going to ask. In my opinion as long as a topic is marked OT, it is preferable to one not marked but one in which the OP has not even done basic research on his problem.
It may be preferable to YOU, but marking something OT doesn't stop it wasting MY bandwidth or clogging up MY inbox does it?
That's what incoming mail filters are for :-). I must admit that I do the vast majority of my e-mail using mutt which makes it extremely easy for me to delete threads unread. This is usually much more time-consuming with GUI or web mail clients.
Personally I have no problem with the occassional OT thread, and think that, within reason, they can make a list more ``friendly'' and less intimidating to newbies.
I also prefer more general lists to those that have very tight charters as I learn quite a bit when I see threads with interesting subjects that I might not see otherwise.
Bill
On Fri, 2008-10-03 at 14:23 -0700, Bill Campbell wrote:
<snip>
Personally I have no problem with the occassional OT thread, and think that, within reason, they can make a list more ``friendly'' and less intimidating to newbies.
Amen brother!
I also prefer more general lists to those that have very tight charters as I learn quite a bit when I see threads with interesting subjects that I might not see otherwise.
Hallelujah!
Bill
Bill Campbell wrote:
Personally I have no problem with the occassional OT thread, and think that, within reason, they can make a list more ``friendly'' and less intimidating to newbies.
I also prefer more general lists to those that have very tight charters as I learn quite a bit when I see threads with interesting subjects that I might not see otherwise.
It will be interesting if things went like so :-
- a CentOS Ivory Tower List for those on top of Ivory Towers. - a CentOS OT list full of 419 scammers, salesmen/affiliates posts - a CentOS n00b list for n00bs
Regards, Vandaman.
on 10-3-2008 3:30 PM Vandaman spake the following:
Bill Campbell wrote:
Personally I have no problem with the occassional OT thread, and think that, within reason, they can make a list more ``friendly'' and less intimidating to newbies.
I also prefer more general lists to those that have very tight charters as I learn quite a bit when I see threads with interesting subjects that I might not see otherwise.
It will be interesting if things went like so :-
- a CentOS Ivory Tower List for those on top of Ivory Towers.
- a CentOS OT list full of 419 scammers, salesmen/affiliates posts
- a CentOS n00b list for n00bs
Regards, Vandaman.
You forgot the CentOS Full of themselves list and the CentOS I'm gonna whine like I own the place list.
Can we get back to our regularly scheduled banter?
List Admins set the tone, and only List Admins can spank users.
Every one else is just along for the ride!
It's Friday night people! Lets all just get along and have a beverage together -- separately! ;-P
On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 4:15 PM, Scott Silva ssilva@sgvwater.com wrote:
You forgot the CentOS Full of themselves list and the CentOS I'm gonna whine like I own the place list.
Can we get back to our regularly scheduled banter?
List Admins set the tone, and only List Admins can spank users.
Every one else is just along for the ride!
It's Friday night people! Lets all just get along and have a beverage together -- separately! ;-P
Where, oh where, is Jim when we need him?
:-)
mhr
On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 7:25 PM, MHR mhullrich@gmail.com wrote:
Where, oh where, is Jim when we need him?
Don't even think of trying to call me a voice of reason on this!
While I am usually a fan of organization, and I do try on irc to keep things in their place, however in this case, I think another channel is simply managing human behavior with a technical solution, and I'm not generally a fan of doing that.
There is a tremendous amount of wisdom across a fairly broad spectrum on this list, and most if not all folks on this list are members of multiple other lists as well. I don't want to see the knowledge and expertise in this channel diluted across other centos related venues simply because a few folks don't like the noise level.
What I'd like to see is channel members asking detailed questions showing thought, research, depth and manners with respect to sane email clients and mailing list netiquette. I'd like to see well thought out responses from experienced individuals showing both a willingness to help, and an expert grasp of whatever topic is at hand. I'd like to see the light email banter back and forth to keep the channel light, but not enough to drive the low bandwidth users away. I'd also like to see list members display some courtesy and not allow the lighter threads to span 100's of posts, with replies to stop replying.
In short, no I don't favor splitting up the list. I want sanity on the list.
Of course, I also want world peace and a pony. Just my $0.02.
On Friday 03 October 2008 22:23:16 Bill Campbell wrote:
On Fri, Oct 03, 2008, Ned Slider wrote:
Vandaman wrote:
Off course people are going to ask. In my opinion as long as a topic is marked OT, it is preferable to one not marked but one in which the OP has not even done basic research on his problem.
It may be preferable to YOU, but marking something OT doesn't stop it wasting MY bandwidth or clogging up MY inbox does it?
That's what incoming mail filters are for :-). I must admit that I do the vast majority of my e-mail using mutt which makes it extremely easy for me to delete threads unread. This is usually much more time-consuming with GUI or web mail clients.
If your account is pop3 only you don't have that option
Personally I have no problem with the occassional OT thread, and think that, within reason, they can make a list more ``friendly'' and less intimidating to newbies.
as long as OT threads stay short, I agree. Long rambling pointless ones I can do without.
I also prefer more general lists to those that have very tight charters as I learn quite a bit when I see threads with interesting subjects that I might not see otherwise.
Agreed about content, but having a code of conduct doesn't affect that.
Anne
Vandaman wrote:
Karanbir Singh wrote:
And yea, working on setting up a sort of list to handle much of this semi OT traffic. More news on that around Wed next week, dint ask about it now.
Off course people are going to ask.
your email is just a rant about nonsense and assumption. You have no idea as to what is going to be proposed not why and how. So I suggest you hang tight and wait for it.
On Friday 03 October 2008 21:33:09 Vandaman wrote:
Karanbir Singh wrote:
And yea, working on setting up a sort of list to handle much of this semi OT traffic. More news on that around Wed next week, dint ask about it now.
Off course people are going to ask. In my opinion as long as a topic is marked OT, it is preferable to one not marked but one in which the OP has not even done basic research on his problem.
One distro had a "brainflash" a number of years ago - create a list for expert users and one for newbies. It didn't take long for the newbies to realise that there was no one to help and so flooded the "expert list". This put off the "experts".
Not true - if you mean Mandrake/Mandriva. For several years the newbie and expert lists worked well. People used the newbie list and quite a few knowledgeable people supported it. Then the OT stuff got out of hand and experts stopped reading it, so people started using the expert list for newbie questions. That was OK until the OT stuff got out of hand, then experts stopped reading it. There were, however, other issues as to why experts moved away, which are not relevant to this discussion.
On some mailing lists, long time users are put off by the flood of posts by newbies who don't even conform to the list guidelines. Some pay back by not replying to those in violation without as much as a hint.
And that is rude and thoughtless. Newbies don't necessarily know how and where to look for help.
Would a new list really solve anything or would it close one door and open another?
That would depend on whether the list is valued enough for people to respect it.
Anne
On Sat, 2008-10-04 at 08:32 +0100, Anne Wilson wrote:
On Friday 03 October 2008 21:33:09 Vandaman wrote:
<snip>
On some mailing lists, long time users are put off by the
flood of posts by newbies who don't even conform to the list
guidelines. Some pay back by not replying to those in violation
without as much as a hint.
And that is rude and thoughtless. Newbies don't necessarily know how and where to look for help.
Respectfully, I disagree. There is an expectation (apparently unreasonable in today's society) that newcomers will make themselves aware of the courtesies and protocols used on a given list. If they haven't done so, or choose to make no effort to conform, why should *our* valuable time be wasted on such? It is better to only waste the OPs time. Having said that, most denizens do make an effort to point the offender in the right direction and even help. But all have limits unique to them. Their time is not for others to waste.
So, I don't consider it rude and inconsiderate. It is, IMO, very courteous and considerate when compared to some alternatives I've seen used. It is a matter of personal choice.
Just as in the real world, there is certain behavior expected from those with whom I *choose* to interact. Rudeness tends to be POV-centric.
Would a new list really solve anything or would it close
one door and open another?
That would depend on whether the list is valued enough for people to respect it.
True, true. But as I know you've seen, there are those who respect nothing other than their own needs.
Anne
<snip sig stuff>
MHO
On Saturday 04 October 2008 12:09:04 William L. Maltby wrote:
On Sat, 2008-10-04 at 08:32 +0100, Anne Wilson wrote:
On Friday 03 October 2008 21:33:09 Vandaman wrote:
<snip>
On some mailing lists, long time users are put off by the
flood of posts by newbies who don't even conform to the list
guidelines. Some pay back by not replying to those in violation
without as much as a hint.
And that is rude and thoughtless. Newbies don't necessarily know how and where to look for help.
Respectfully, I disagree. There is an expectation (apparently unreasonable in today's society) that newcomers will make themselves aware of the courtesies and protocols used on a given list. If they haven't done so, or choose to make no effort to conform, why should *our* valuable time be wasted on such? It is better to only waste the OPs time. Having said that, most denizens do make an effort to point the offender in the right direction and even help. But all have limits unique to them. Their time is not for others to waste.
So, I don't consider it rude and inconsiderate. It is, IMO, very courteous and considerate when compared to some alternatives I've seen used. It is a matter of personal choice.
Just as in the real world, there is certain behavior expected from those with whom I *choose* to interact. Rudeness tends to be POV-centric.
Then we must agree to differ. I consider it thoughtful to tell them once what is expected of them - and politely, which is not always the case on this or any other list I've read. Of course if they persist in breaking the rules, then they ask to be ignored IMO
Anne
On Sat, 2008-10-04 at 14:27 +0100, Anne Wilson wrote:
<snip>
Then we must agree to differ. I consider it thoughtful to tell them once what is expected of them - and politely, which is not always the case on this or any other list I've read. Of course if they persist in breaking the rules, then they ask to be ignored IMO
I don't think we disagree. I also consider it thoughtful to politely "educate" newcomers. But that is *my* choice that fits with *my* standards. I was reminded when I was younger that I could not arbitrarily apply my standards to others. That stuck with me. That allowed me to step out of my own shoes and see things from other perspectives. Given that, not responding may not be rude. It may be due to lack of time. It may be one does not care. It may be ... well, many other things.
I also agree with you about the "impolite" (I would, if in a generous mood, term it "brusque") posts by many of this list. I choose not to waste my time calling them on it. I figure "their momma didn't raise them right" and I would be unlikely to affect their behavior. Obviously ego-centric personalities.
That's their problem, won't become mine.
Anne
<snip sig stuff>
-
Anne Wilson -
Bill Campbell -
Jim Perrin -
Kai Schaetzl -
Karanbir Singh -
MHR -
Ned Slider -
Ralph Angenendt -
Ross Walker -
Scott Silva -
Vandaman -
William L. Maltby