Hi,
Taking this to a new thread.
Thoughts on getting a new list started up ? Should it be centos-sysadmin or centos-infra ? Are we going to then restrict it to admin/infra related chatter ? in which case, does the eyeball density on this list reduce for that sort of content ?
How about the politics and news stuff that gets posted to this list. And how would those things be addressed with the new admin focused list ?
- KB
On Wed, 24 Nov 2010 15:47:39 +0000 Karanbir Singh wrote:
Hi,
Taking this to a new thread.
Thoughts on getting a new list started up ? Should it be centos-sysadmin or centos-infra ? Are we going to then restrict it to admin/infra related chatter ? in which case, does the eyeball density on this list reduce for that sort of content ?
The problem with starting a new list is just exactly that: You split the audience and have less exposure on both lists. Everyone then needs to subscribe to two lists instead of one to "keep up with stuff".
How about the politics and news stuff that gets posted to this list. And how would those things be addressed with the new admin focused list ?
My personal opinion is that it's not a big deal. As with other mailing lists, stuff I'm not interested in I simply ignore.
Even though it's not directly on-topic for this list, I personally find the WP thread interesting. We don't need another Slashdot on a mailing list, of course, but it's not out of hand yet in my humble opinion.
Of course, if others see a need to start another list then I'm perfectly happy to tag along and join up with that one, too.
Thoughts on getting a new list started up ?
The problem with starting a new list is just exactly that: You split the audience and have less exposure on both lists. Everyone then needs to subscribe to two lists instead of one to "keep up with stuff".
+1
My personal opinion is that it's not a big deal. As with other mailing lists, stuff I'm not interested in I simply ignore.
+1
Even though it's not directly on-topic for this list, I personally find the WP thread interesting.
+1
I am fascinated to eavesdrop on the techno-babble of fogies as old as myself. I learned BASIC on a PDP-11/45, Fortran on a CDC 3150 (We celebrated the day the 2nd bank of 32K of (real) core was added); my first code-for-pay was with TECO on a PDP-10 cross-compiled to a Rockwell 6502 target. *nostalgic sigh*. ******************************************************************* This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. www.Hubbell.com - Hubbell Incorporated**
-----Original Message----- From: centos-bounces@centos.org [mailto:centos-bounces@centos.org] On Behalf Of Mathieu Baudier Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 11:42 To: CentOS mailing list Subject: Re: [CentOS] New list ?
My personal opinion is that it's not a big deal. As with other mailing lists, stuff I'm not interested in I simply ignore.
+1
Pardon my pre-holiday humor...
If everyone ignores what they are not interested in, then why are people responding against the topic???
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On 24 November 2010 16:42, Mathieu Baudier mbaudier@argeo.org wrote:
My personal opinion is that it's not a big deal. As with other mailing lists, stuff I'm not interested in I simply ignore.
+1
+1, this is not a high volume list, we can just ignore threads we're not interested by skipping them. :)
On 11/24/2010 05:04 PM, Hakan Koseoglu wrote:
My personal opinion is that it's not a big deal. As with other mailing lists, stuff I'm not interested in I simply ignore.
Are you saying that having focus and topic specific lists are not something you agree with ? Because thats what it sounds like!
- KB
On 24 November 2010 17:06, Karanbir Singh mail-lists@karan.org wrote:
On 11/24/2010 05:04 PM, Hakan Koseoglu wrote: Are you saying that having focus and topic specific lists are not something you agree with ? Because thats what it sounds like!
OK, instead of quoting other people: I think for a list with such a low volume (comparable to some other Linux-related mailing lists), having separate mailing lists (apart from announcements) is not necessary.
In higher volume and lower SNR lists (can you hear me ubuntu-users mailing list! Oh no, you can't because I've unsub'd a while ago, thx to the SNR of zero. No signal, all noise), that's positively beneficial.
OTOH, it's only my take on it and I'm nothing but a user of mailing lists. In the end if there are more than one list, I'll end up subscribing the lot so not a lot will change in my mailbox! :)
On Wed, 24 Nov 2010 17:06:05 +0000 Karanbir Singh wrote:
Are you saying that having focus and topic specific lists are not something you agree with ? Because thats what it sounds like!
As with so many other things, a concept of reasonableness and common sense comes into play. The grey cat theory, as it were.
I see value in having a mailing list devoted to Centos; that's why I'm here. I further see no large problems here with off-topic postings. This doesn't mean that I see no off-topic postings here but the volume is not out-of-hand and the topics covered are still generally interesting to the kind of folks who subscribe to this kind mailing list.
On the other hand, there is of course a potential that the list could be taken over by off-topic posts. And we're back to the grey cat.
Reasonable off-topic posts aren't a problem. Problematic off-topic posts are a problem. Drawing the line could be interesting, but most people can spot that cat even if they can't define it. Then we'll drag it out and shoot it!
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010, Karanbir Singh wrote:
On 11/24/2010 05:04 PM, Hakan Koseoglu wrote:
My personal opinion is that it's not a big deal. As with other mailing lists, stuff I'm not interested in I simply ignore.
Are you saying that having focus and topic specific lists are not something you agree with ? Because thats what it sounds like!
I would agree with that. The Apple mailing lists are a great example, they have a metric tonne of mailing lists, each on a specific topic, but none of general interest where one can ask an off-the-wall question without getting flamed.
One of my favorite Linux related lists is the one that started as a Caldera users mailing list, and is still going today. There's a pretty strong sense of community on that list with participants all over the place in terms of Linux usage and geography. Off topic items have ranged from who makes the hottest chili to the draught in Australia and how people deal with it.
Bill
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 03:47:39PM +0000, Karanbir Singh wrote:
Thoughts on getting a new list started up ? Should it be centos-sysadmin or centos-infra ? Are we going to then restrict it to admin/infra related chatter ? in which case, does the eyeball density on this list reduce for that sort of content ?
How about the politics and news stuff that gets posted to this list. And how would those things be addressed with the new admin focused list ?
I like the idea of a catch-all offtopic list--the objection raised that "there exists a list where this is on-topic" means that a) one has to find this list, b) one has to join this list, and c) one has to learn the local conventions on this list, all before posting something you think might be relevant. Whereas, if there is a "centos-offtopic" list or similar, which is very likely a high proportion of centos readers, you don't have any of these concerns (well, unless you go completely nuts like "how do I find an S&M club in Sochi?").
Beyond that, what would the topic(s)/topic limits of the new list(s) be? One potential proposal:
centos-admin: tech topics that are not directly related to CentOS (Niki's Oracle Linux question would fit here)
centos-offtopic: any other random runaway threads or non-tech topics
We on the centos list need to be disciplined to move threads to the appropriate list when they get offtopic for centos (this means not relying on KB to intervene, but suggesting a move ourselves if we see it before someone else does) if we do go ahead with new lists that are not directly on-topic.
--keith
On Wed, 24 Nov 2010 08:24:03 -0800 Keith Keller wrote:
this means not relying on KB to intervene, but suggesting a move ourselves if we see it before someone else does) if we do go ahead with new lists that are not directly on-topic.
Then you get eighty-seven people jumping on a message saying "that's off-topic, move it X". Which creates far more noise than the initial "offence".
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 10:41:58AM -0600, Frank Cox wrote:
On Wed, 24 Nov 2010 08:24:03 -0800 Keith Keller wrote:
this means not relying on KB to intervene, but suggesting a move ourselves if we see it before someone else does) if we do go ahead with new lists that are not directly on-topic.
Then you get eighty-seven people jumping on a message saying "that's off-topic, move it X". Which creates far more noise than the initial "offence".
Hear hear. The biggest noise on almost all lists seems to be those complaining about someone posting OT or otherwise against their idea of properly.
I'd rather delete 10 OT posts than 80 complaints about it being OT. My CTS starts to act up.
////jerry
-- MELVILLE THEATRE ~ Melville Sask ~ http://www.melvilletheatre.com _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
On 11/24/2010 10:47 AM, Karanbir Singh wrote:
Hi,
Taking this to a new thread.
Thoughts on getting a new list started up ? Should it be centos-sysadmin or centos-infra ? Are we going to then restrict it to admin/infra related chatter ? in which case, does the eyeball density on this list reduce for that sort of content ?
How about the politics and news stuff that gets posted to this list. And how would those things be addressed with the new admin focused list ?
I agree with most of the other posts. This is the highest volume mailing list that I'm on at the moment, but I still don't think there is a high enough volume that it needs to be split up. It would create confusion about the proper place to post questions, since questions frequently do not fit into simple categories. It also (as has already been said) will create more useless posts talking about the proper list for various questions.
I'll put my vote in for keeping the single list.
Thoughts on getting a new list started up ? Should it be centos-sysadmin or centos-infra ? Are we going to then restrict it to admin/infra related chatter ? in which case, does the eyeball density on this list reduce for that sort of content ?
I would love a new list for sysadmins. Having a lower volume list that does not encourage newbie posts would be ideal for me. Serious technical problems either go unanswered because they get lost in the noise, or because maybe the more knowledgable sysadmins don't waste their time here.
I don't mean to say there aren't knowledgeable and able people here, but I think if there was a list focused to them, then I think that would attract more technical people who are able to help each other out on problems higher up the food chain.
But maybe that's an idea for a generic linux list and not a CentOS focused one.
On Thu, 2010-11-25 at 09:06 +1300, Spiro Harvey wrote:
I don't mean to say there aren't knowledgeable and able people here, but I think if there was a list focused to them, then I think that would attract more technical people who are able to help each other out on problems higher up the food chain. But maybe that's an idea for a generic linux list and not a CentOS focused one.
These already exist. [And I agree, most of administration is distribution agnostic].
lopsa-tech is very high quality. https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tech <quote> The tech@lopsa.org mailing list is an open forum for the discussion of any technical topics of interest to systems administrators. This list is technology agnostic, and constructive communications regarding any operating system, vendor, or technology are welcome. </quote>
But in general it is simply true that if you want answers about something specific you are better off on a specific list - because that is where the people who have the answers are. Whether that is the Samba list(s), the Postfix list, the OpenLDAP list(s), bind-users@, etc...
Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
On Thu, 2010-11-25 at 09:06 +1300, Spiro Harvey wrote:
I don't mean to say there aren't knowledgeable and able people here, but I think if there was a list focused to them, then I think that would attract more technical people who are able to help each other out on problems higher up the food chain. But maybe that's an idea for a generic linux list and not a CentOS focused one.
These already exist. [And I agree, most of administration is distribution agnostic].
lopsa-tech is very high quality. https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tech
<quote>
Then there's SAGE (the System Administrators' Guild), which I've batted around the idea of joining....
mark
On 11/24/2010 2:24 PM, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
On Thu, 2010-11-25 at 09:06 +1300, Spiro Harvey wrote:
I don't mean to say there aren't knowledgeable and able people here, but I think if there was a list focused to them, then I think that would attract more technical people who are able to help each other out on problems higher up the food chain. But maybe that's an idea for a generic linux list and not a CentOS focused one.
These already exist. [And I agree, most of administration is distribution agnostic].
lopsa-tech is very high quality. https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tech
<quote> The tech@lopsa.org mailing list is an open forum for the discussion of any technical topics of interest to systems administrators. This list is technology agnostic, and constructive communications regarding any operating system, vendor, or technology are welcome. </quote>
But in general it is simply true that if you want answers about something specific you are better off on a specific list - because that is where the people who have the answers are. Whether that is the Samba list(s), the Postfix list, the OpenLDAP list(s), bind-users@, etc...
But generally the only advice from an upstream app list will be 'upgrade to current' because they won't know/care about the things that may or may not have been backported in older enterprise distributions where the focus is to keep the interfaces stable. Replacing your well maintained/supported RPMs with something that puts the update burden on you is sometimes the right answer, but not very often.
Likewise, you may see the same questions on a generic sysadmin list as on a Centos-related list, but the answers will be different, and not necessarily the best. If someone with a lot of Centos experience tells you to do something different, you can take it more seriously than if the answer is coming from someone who thinks everyone should be running freebsd just on general principles.
Spiro Harvey wrote:
Thoughts on getting a new list started up ? Should it be centos-sysadmin or centos-infra ? Are we going to then restrict it to admin/infra related chatter ? in which case, does the eyeball density on this list reduce for that sort of content ?
I would love a new list for sysadmins. Having a lower volume list that does not encourage newbie posts would be ideal for me. Serious technical problems either go unanswered because they get lost in the noise, or because maybe the more knowledgable sysadmins don't waste their time here.
<snip> I suppose I should dust off and finish up the FAQ that I wrote up six months or so ago. That might help cut some of the really obnoxious newby posts (WoW!!! I just installed CentOS, ain't I l33t, now how do I log in?!?!?!).
mark
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 24/11/10 20:41, m.roth@5-cent.us wrote:
<Snip>
(WoW!!! I just installed CentOS, ain't I l33t, now how do I log
in?!?!?!).
mark
Lol Ironically I've actually seen people ask questions like that.
As for the separate lists idea, I think it would be a good thing in one way but bad in another. It would be good because it would split things up and attempt to make less noise.
But on the other hand it would be bad because people could get lost in the transaction and the lists could end up dull as people join different lists and end up spread out (Eg, you ask a question, have to wait a few weeks for an answer, that would be bad.)
And we could start seeing 80+ replies to threads saying "Wrong list newb" therefore causing more noise.
I personally think the list is good as is, yes there is some minor noise, but that's just it, minor noise.
However I would just tag along, and join up to yet another list (I like to keep in the 'loop' of things) :-)
Just my £00.02p :-)
- -- Jake
Further to my last email, another option for more technical users is Reddit. I started http://www.reddit.com/r/linuxadmin about a year ago.
Free signup, no confirmation, just choose a login and password and go (and there's much more on Reddit which may appeal).
/r/linuxadmin currently has just under 900 readers.
It's not CentOS focused, but is aimed at more technical problems and discussions and may be an alternative for people if this list doesn't get split.
Karanbir Singh a écrit :
How about the politics and news stuff that gets posted to this list. And how would those things be addressed with the new admin focused list ?
"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one frequently goes ranting on and on at ball-breaking length."
-- Ludwig Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus, first draft
:o)
-
Adam Tauno Williams -
Bill Campbell -
Bowie Bailey -
Brunner, Brian T. -
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Hakan Koseoglu -
Jake Shipton -
Jason Pyeron -
Jerry McAllister -
Karanbir Singh -
Keith Keller -
Les Mikesell -
m.roth＠5-cent.us -
Mathieu Baudier -
Niki Kovacs -
Spiro Harvey