One thing that we are often blamed for is trying to stifle conversations and to discourage people from commenting / contributing / encouraging conversations. And that cant be further from the truth, really. We are all pro-community ( and when I say we, I mean everyone - including the contributors, developers, admins, users, abusers and hey upstream too ).
However, one thing that does get in the way, often, and something that we all feel creates a higher 'noise' ratio is conversations on this list about semi-related stuff, but not something that directly contributes to the general users of CentOS. Conversations that specifically address four areas:
- technologies - best practices - deployment strategies and tools - management strategies and tools
And to better cater to these conversations, as well as further encourage such content, we'd like to propose creating a 'centos-tech' list.
Over a period of time, we would like to see the CentOS list become a more user help and distro specific list, with generic conversations moving to the centos-tech list.
Karanbir Singh wrote:
And to better cater to these conversations, as well as further encourage such content, we'd like to propose creating a 'centos-tech' list.
Also, all comments are welcome!
If there is a general feeling that this would help, then we will go ahead and setup the new list in the next few days.
Karanbir Singh <> scribbled on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 11:55 PM:
And to better cater to these conversations, as well as further encourage such content, we'd like to propose creating a 'centos-tech' list.
Also, all comments are welcome!
Sounds like a plan.
How would a newbie know what list to ask on though? I think this might be a crucial point. You'll need to specify pretty hard what is and what is not a proper topic on the lists respectively.
Splitting it up *might* make the list more, well split, causing confusion where to post what and so on, and you'd still get the noise on both lists, only double the amount.
On a personal note, I'm already subscribed to thirtysome lists now. One more won't matter much. If I find the techie-list isn't for me, I can unsub.
On Wed, 2008-10-15 at 22:54 +0100, Karanbir Singh wrote:
Karanbir Singh wrote:
And to better cater to these conversations, as well as further encourage such content, we'd like to propose creating a 'centos-tech' list.
Also, all comments are welcome!
If there is a general feeling that this would help, then we will go ahead and setup the new list in the next few days.
I think this is not a good solution. I've read all the other posts in this thread and there are a lot of good points. But...
Since I've been on the list, it has *always* appeared to me to be not CentOS-specific. It rather appears to be mostly admin-centric. Both experienced and inexperienced users have posted, been helped, helped others. It has been, fortunately, mostly related to CentOS in that the posters are trying to do something on CentOS, not BSD, UNIX, .... It should, of course, remain so. Nevertheless, the primary focus seems towards administration, not CentOS.
The "enforcement" of "CentOSicity" has been sporadic and arbitrary. The "sporadic" part has allowed this to become a very informative, usually friendly and productive tool. It reflects, IMO, the nature of its constituency.
The "arbitrary" part has raised my hackles, even though I'm not the target (usually). "Got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning" usually crosses my mind.
My feeling is that what has been generally tolerated on the list should continue: help with mail setup, wifi doesn't work, recommend <insert your hardware here>, php, browser problems, raid, file systems, ... you can see that very little is CentOS. But usually it is at least on a CentOS system.
Because CentOS "just works" for so many, this list would really have very few posts that are on topic: upgrade 4.x->5.x broke my system (read the archives, that's not recommended), I can't get my wifi to work on 5.x (that hardware is too new - go get the driver from...), etc.
A great number of these would be administration problems, not CentOS problems, and also would spawn tangential threads. They would then be referred to the new list, which would now look like this one used to look. Cross postings would begin to occur as many topics would be difficult to initially categorize. Is it a CentOS problem or a wetware problem?
My recommendation is that this list continue as it has, with the exception of the arbitrary enforcement of "CentOSicity". This should be either consistently enforced, reducing the utility and population of this list, or only enforced that you must be using/administering/setting up... a CentOS system.
This will acknowledge the nature of an "enterprise class" user, continue to support the growth of CentOS, aid the user in innumerable ways, ...
For those who want a much narrower scope of topics, start lists for them. From the day I first subscribed, the reality has been that this list has been:
- technologies - best practices - deployment strategies and tools - management strategies and tools
to quote you, along with the other things I've mentioned. Local filters, <DEL>, etc. can handle the chores for those that want a very narrow view.
MHO
on 10-16-2008 3:08 AM William L. Maltby spake the following:
On Wed, 2008-10-15 at 22:54 +0100, Karanbir Singh wrote:
Karanbir Singh wrote:
And to better cater to these conversations, as well as further encourage such content, we'd like to propose creating a 'centos-tech' list.
Also, all comments are welcome!
If there is a general feeling that this would help, then we will go ahead and setup the new list in the next few days.
I think this is not a good solution. I've read all the other posts in this thread and there are a lot of good points. But...
Since I've been on the list, it has *always* appeared to me to be not CentOS-specific. It rather appears to be mostly admin-centric. Both experienced and inexperienced users have posted, been helped, helped others. It has been, fortunately, mostly related to CentOS in that the posters are trying to do something on CentOS, not BSD, UNIX, .... It should, of course, remain so. Nevertheless, the primary focus seems towards administration, not CentOS.
The "enforcement" of "CentOSicity" has been sporadic and arbitrary. The "sporadic" part has allowed this to become a very informative, usually friendly and productive tool. It reflects, IMO, the nature of its constituency.
The "arbitrary" part has raised my hackles, even though I'm not the target (usually). "Got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning" usually crosses my mind.
My feeling is that what has been generally tolerated on the list should continue: help with mail setup, wifi doesn't work, recommend <insert your hardware here>, php, browser problems, raid, file systems, ... you can see that very little is CentOS. But usually it is at least on a CentOS system.
Because CentOS "just works" for so many, this list would really have very few posts that are on topic: upgrade 4.x->5.x broke my system (read the archives, that's not recommended), I can't get my wifi to work on 5.x (that hardware is too new - go get the driver from...), etc.
A great number of these would be administration problems, not CentOS problems, and also would spawn tangential threads. They would then be referred to the new list, which would now look like this one used to look. Cross postings would begin to occur as many topics would be difficult to initially categorize. Is it a CentOS problem or a wetware problem?
My recommendation is that this list continue as it has, with the exception of the arbitrary enforcement of "CentOSicity". This should be either consistently enforced, reducing the utility and population of this list, or only enforced that you must be using/administering/setting up... a CentOS system.
This will acknowledge the nature of an "enterprise class" user, continue to support the growth of CentOS, aid the user in innumerable ways, ...
For those who want a much narrower scope of topics, start lists for them. From the day I first subscribed, the reality has been that this list has been:
- technologies
- best practices
- deployment strategies and tools
- management strategies and tools
to quote you, along with the other things I've mentioned. Local filters, <DEL>, etc. can handle the chores for those that want a very narrow view.
MHO
I have to second that. If people get to the one on one point that I see soo often, they really should be taking it off-list anyway.. IE .. If two men have a disagreement at a pub, they should go "outside". If others want to "watch" they can go off list with them and the combatants can "reply-all" and keep the thread going as long as they wish.
The back and forth "sword fighting" on list just gets the admins involved, and starts another fight somewhere else. If the admins are spanking the list members, they have less of their sparse time left for other things that they might have been getting done or trying to get done.
Now I am done, and off this thread....
If any body wants a piece of me, lets go outside!!! ;-D
Karanbir Singh wrote:
However, one thing that does get in the way, often, and something that we all feel creates a higher 'noise' ratio is conversations on this list about semi-related stuff, but not something that directly contributes to the general users of CentOS. Conversations that specifically address four areas:
- technologies
- best practices
- deployment strategies and tools
- management strategies and tools
And to better cater to these conversations, as well as further encourage such content, we'd like to propose creating a 'centos-tech' list.
Over a period of time, we would like to see the CentOS list become a more user help and distro specific list, with generic conversations moving to the centos-tech list.
Sounds like a great idea, :)
On Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:52:44 +0100 Karanbir Singh mail-lists@karan.org wrote:
And to better cater to these conversations, as well as further encourage such content, we'd like to propose creating a 'centos-tech' list.
Sounds like a whale of a plan.
On Wed, Oct 15, 2008, Frank Cox wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:52:44 +0100 Karanbir Singh mail-lists@karan.org wrote:
And to better cater to these conversations, as well as further encourage such content, we'd like to propose creating a 'centos-tech' list.
Sounds like a whale of a plan.
Personally I prefer the more general lists rather than splitting off into a bunch of more specific ones. I often learn things by reading messages that I would see on more targeted lists. The more general lists also seem more likely to engender a feeling of community (the linux-sxs.org nee Caldera list is a case in point).
Perhaps my viewpoint is a bit skewed since I use an e-mail program, mutt, that makes it very easy to see articles by thread, and to delete everything in a thread with a single ctrl-D. I use Thunderbird on occassion to read messages where I know they are likely to be HTML and have long links to click, but GUIs are far too slow and cumbersome to deal with hundreds of messages a day, particularly in my postmaster and security folders which may go to thousands of messages in the morning.
Bill
On Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:25:24 -0700 Bill Campbell centos@celestial.com wrote:
Personally I prefer the more general lists rather than splitting off into a bunch of more specific ones. I often learn things by reading messages that I would see on more targeted lists. The more general lists also seem more likely to engender a feeling of community (the linux-sxs.org nee Caldera list is a case in point).
I tend to agree with you, actually. The Fedora list, for example, seems to work fine as far as I can see (most of the time, anyway), and I just skip over anything that doesn't look interesting to me.
However, I can appreciate that some folks may not want to deal with the "noise" and, when it comes to Centos, where else are you going to take it in that case?
I suspect that most of the discussion and question ask-and-answer stuff currently dealt with here will migrate to the new list within a short period of time, simply because it will be more free-wheeling and easy to post to. This list will become much less active and relevant if that occurs.
Accordingly, I plan to subscribe to both lists when the second one is created and hope to continue to learn stuff.
On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 6:36 PM, Frank Cox theatre@sasktel.net wrote:
I suspect that most of the discussion and question ask-and-answer stuff currently dealt with here will migrate to the new list within a short period of time, simply because it will be more free-wheeling and easy to post to. This list will become much less active and relevant if that occurs.
Forgive me for jumping into this thread when I don't often post to this list. I think the conclusion that 'discussions will move over to the tech list' is wrong in the long term. If I had to bet, I would say that in the short term, these discussions will move to the tech list, and everything will go as planned. In the long term, I think they will move back to this list (from here till the end of this post, its the main list.).
The reason is that there will be more people on the main list than the tech list -- everyone on the tech list will be subscribed to the main list, but not the other way around. Off-topic conversations will spring up out of topics that were once on-topic. Some people will disapprove and suggest they move the conversation, but they'll move only rarely.
This may sound crazy, but maybe the thing to do is let the main list continue the way it is, but update the guidelines for this list to explicitly allow the things that Karanbir mentioned in the OP. Then, and this is the crazy part, set up a new list called centos-terse or centos-hardcore or centos-list-of-last-resort. Let that one be the new BS-not-tolerated, no noise, all Centos all the time list.
If you're going to subscribe to one CentOS list, it should be CentOS-announce. But I'll bet its common for someone to only subscribe to CentOS@. Someone else mentioned the Fedora@ list as one that covers a broad range of topics and works out OK. I think its great that you can subscribe to a list that is relevant to an OS you depend on, but you'll also get a dose of something broader.
Michael Semcheski <> scribbled on Thursday, October 16, 2008 2:17 AM:
This may sound crazy, but maybe the thing to do is let the main list continue the way it is, but update the guidelines for this list to explicitly allow the things that Karanbir mentioned in the OP. Then, and this is the crazy part, set up a new list called centos-terse or centos-hardcore or centos-list-of-last-resort. Let that one be the new BS-not-tolerated, no noise, all Centos all the time list.
I second that! CentOS-Discussion should continue to be the general entrance to anything CentOS but updated as to topics, while there could also be more specific lists that are hardcore etc.
/S
Frank Cox a écrit :
I tend to agree with you, actually. The Fedora list, for example, seems to work fine as far as I can see (most of the time, anyway), and I just skip over anything that doesn't look interesting to me.
I second that. Coming from Slackware, I tend to adhere to the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) principle. One list for everything, and then skipping over the boring/uninteresting bits looks quite simple. Activate the threaded view in your mailreader, and there you go.
Cheers,
Niki
Karanbir Singh wrote:
One thing that we are often blamed for is trying to stifle conversations and to discourage people from commenting / contributing / encouraging conversations. And that cant be further from the truth, really. We are all pro-community ( and when I say we, I mean everyone - including the contributors, developers, admins, users, abusers and hey upstream too ).
I would agree with a centos-tech list, and would definitely join. I agree, I think often times people are discouraged from asking simpler questions that aren't related to CentOS on the main list.
Being a part of the centos-docs list, I see a different level of conversation and communication over there, compared to the main list. Posts seem much more relaxed, and people are able to discuss things and express ideas without fear of being yelled out about something, or being told what is definitely wrong or right.
If a centos-tech list encourages this behavior, count my vote for yes.
Regards, Max
I don't think a new list will work any better than this list. As far as an OT post I will give an example, if somewhat contrived:
I'm looking for a, possible freeware, app that I know *what it does* but do not have a clue what various and sundry names it hides behind. I've tried a number of times to generate a google search without luck. Where do I go to find an answer?
Sometimes to find an answer to a question you must ask somewhere. I'd rather see someone ask than go back to w*****s!
Bob
Karanbir Singh wrote:
One thing that we are often blamed for is trying to stifle conversations and to discourage people from commenting / contributing / encouraging conversations. And that cant be further from the truth, really. We are all pro-community ( and when I say we, I mean everyone - including the contributors, developers, admins, users, abusers and hey upstream too ).
However, one thing that does get in the way, often, and something that we all feel creates a higher 'noise' ratio is conversations on this list about semi-related stuff, but not something that directly contributes to the general users of CentOS. Conversations that specifically address four areas:
- technologies
- best practices
- deployment strategies and tools
- management strategies and tools
I don't know whether that will take off...has not it been tried outside centos.org by centos list members already?
And to better cater to these conversations, as well as further encourage such content, we'd like to propose creating a 'centos-tech' list.
They sound like 'general' stuff that lot.
Over a period of time, we would like to see the CentOS list become a more user help and distro specific list, with generic conversations moving to the centos-tech list.
How about a centos-help list instead?
Christopher Chan wrote:
- technologies
- best practices
- deployment strategies and tools
- management strategies and tools
I don't know whether that will take off...has not it been tried outside centos.org by centos list members already?
Not that I am aware of. But its worth a try here in .centos.org ( or so I feel anyway ). What we do or dont do will ultimately be based on what everyone feels about it.
And to better cater to these conversations, as well as further encourage such content, we'd like to propose creating a 'centos-tech' list.
They sound like 'general' stuff that lot.
yes, a lot more generic than something that is distro specific.
How about a centos-help list instead?
I am not sure if that would work, its been tried many times and always fails back to the fact that everyone who posts to a list, has an issue they need help with.
Karanbir Singh wrote:
Christopher Chan wrote:
- technologies
- best practices
- deployment strategies and tools
- management strategies and tools
I don't know whether that will take off...has not it been tried outside centos.org by centos list members already?
Not that I am aware of. But its worth a try here in .centos.org ( or so I feel anyway ). What we do or dont do will ultimately be based on what everyone feels about it.
Sometime when Bryan Smith was still about...setup by a Brazilian IIRC. But whatever. Like John Hinton says: Cut us loose.
And to better cater to these conversations, as well as further encourage such content, we'd like to propose creating a 'centos-tech' list.
They sound like 'general' stuff that lot.
yes, a lot more generic than something that is distro specific.
Okay, I think quite a few here would want a 'anything goes' list then.
How about a centos-help list instead?
I am not sure if that would work, its been tried many times and always fails back to the fact that everyone who posts to a list, has an issue they need help with.
Okay, let's have an 'anything goes' list whatever it is called.
I'd have to suggest that the 'default' list (eg this one) should be the most general and beginner oriented, and any new additional lists should be the ones with the narrower focus (centos-tech, for instance, or centos-sysadmin).
in my experience with running multiple lists, unless there's a near-nazi level of 'DO NOT CROSSPOST' enforcement, half the traffic will get crossposted all over the place anyways when you split lists.
I vote leave it alone. it ain't broken, lets not 'fix' it.
John R Pierce wrote:
I'd have to suggest that the 'default' list (eg this one) should be the most general and beginner oriented, and any new additional lists should be the ones with the narrower focus (centos-tech, for instance, or centos-sysadmin).
Narrower focus? Why? Why should there not be a general advanced user oriented list which seems to be one of the reasons why people holler OT here!
in my experience with running multiple lists, unless there's a near-nazi level of 'DO NOT CROSSPOST' enforcement, half the traffic will get crossposted all over the place anyways when you split lists.
I vote leave it alone. it ain't broken, lets not 'fix' it.
It is not about 'fixing' it...it is about letting people discuss things that are considered OT for the centos list but yet related to people who use Centos in whatever environment they may be.
On Thu, 16 Oct 2008, John R Pierce wrote:
I'd have to suggest that the 'default' list (eg this one) should be the most general and beginner oriented, and any new additional lists should be the ones with the narrower focus (centos-tech, for instance, or centos-sysadmin).
in my experience with running multiple lists, unless there's a near-nazi
Godwin's law declared on the thread
-- Russ herrold
on 10-16-2008 7:57 PM R P Herrold spake the following:
On Thu, 16 Oct 2008, John R Pierce wrote:
I'd have to suggest that the 'default' list (eg this one) should be the most general and beginner oriented, and any new additional lists should be the ones with the narrower focus (centos-tech, for instance, or centos-sysadmin).
in my experience with running multiple lists, unless there's a near-nazi
Godwin's law declared on the thread
-- Russ herrold
That's one I hadn't heard in a long time! ;-P
On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 11:15 AM, Scott Silva ssilva@sgvwater.com wrote:
on 10-16-2008 7:57 PM R P Herrold spake the following:
On Thu, 16 Oct 2008, John R Pierce wrote:
Godwin's law declared on the thread
-- Russ herrold
That's one I hadn't heard in a long time! ;-P
Oh, my lord, that brings back memories! I used to have long arguments with Mike on one of the Usenet forums, way back in the day....
And he's younger than I am!
mhr
On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 4:52 PM, Karanbir Singh mail-lists@karan.org wrote:
And to better cater to these conversations, as well as further encourage such content, we'd like to propose creating a 'centos-tech' list.
There are probably as many (or more) threads that drift off topic as there are those that start out that way and are labeled as such. I don't think a new list is really going to help create the separation you seek. In fact, introducing a second list will probably generate many conversations on each list that really belong on the other.
I have no trouble navigating the list as is (with gmail) and adding a new list would just mean another subscription to manage. If I subscribed, I would probably give the new list the same label, so it would all be the same to me.
I favor one-stop shopping.
My $0.02
----- "Jeff" jlar310@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 4:52 PM, Karanbir Singh mail-lists@karan.org wrote:
And to better cater to these conversations, as well as further
encourage
such content, we'd like to propose creating a 'centos-tech' list.
There are probably as many (or more) threads that drift off topic as there are those that start out that way and are labeled as such. I don't think a new list is really going to help create the separation you seek. In fact, introducing a second list will probably generate many conversations on each list that really belong on the other.
I favor one-stop shopping.
I agree with Jeff. While I understand this general list can become a bit overwhelming for the CentOS Staff, we all must remember that this is a GENERAL list. All questions, from the novice to the expert should be welcome. This list is not only a way to get problems resolved, but a very effective learning tool for all users. Let's remember why we're here. To support and learn from our fellow CentOS users/admins.
I believe creating another list is a mistake. Delegate a full-time moderator if you feel overwhelmed by the various threads created on this list, but a second list will only encourage cross-posting.
Lets not go the way of the DJB lists and become intolerant of general, but relevant conversations.
[steps off soapbox]
-Ken
On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 5:41 PM, Kenneth Price kprice@nowyouknow.net wrote:
----- "Jeff" jlar310@gmail.com wrote:
I favor one-stop shopping.
I agree with Jeff.
Count me in, there, too. This may sound odd after my last posting, but I prefer the idea of a single list, I just think we should encourage people to stick to good list etiquette (bottom posting, trimming replies and asking questions intelligently (even if they're "dumb" questions) - a lot of the time I've found that I could answer my own question just by researching what I feel I need to put into it to ask the question properly - googling, reading man pages, etc.
The <send> button should be the last resort, even for general or OT questions, and this is a good thing.
I think I understand KB's frustrations, but we've discussed splitting this list before several times in the last year or so, and to the benefit of us all, it remains united.
Cheers.
Mark Hull-Richter (mhr) Linux Software Developer Registered Linux User #472807 - sign up at http://counter.li.org/
Hi,
On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 20:41, Kenneth Price kprice@nowyouknow.net wrote:
----- "Jeff" jlar310@gmail.com wrote:
I favor one-stop shopping.
I believe creating another list is a mistake. [...] a second list will only encourage cross-posting.
I second that.
As I see it, although this talk of what is on or off topic started on the thread about "parted" (which in my opinion is relevant to CentOS), the thing that really started this was the thread with subject "App Question", which was a cross-post to three different lists with a question as generic as it can get.
A second list will not fix this, the offender will just cross-post to one more list.
Another good example of why this does not work is that, although the centos-virt list exists, many topics that are virtualization-related are discussed on the main list. This does not bother me at all since I subscribe to both.
Sincerely, I believe the most effective tool to reduce the noise would be to reply *off list* to offenders telling them that they should step up and behave properly if they want to take part of the list. Top posting/trimming/html could also be handled with off list replies. This would have the bonus of not creating more noise and having the offender get tons of replies giving them yet another incentive to follow the rules.
The decision is not mine, but I would oppose creating a new list. However, if you do, I will sign up too.
Anyway, just my 2¢ Canadian.
Filipe
hey filipe...
since i'm the op, who posted the app question thread, get back to me with your email address, and i'll gladly talk to you, particularly since as you put it, my question was vague... but the funny thing.. someone from this list pointed my in the direction of a company/app that appears to do what i'm looking for.. so it must not have been too vague...
peace..
-----Original Message----- From: centos-bounces@centos.org [mailto:centos-bounces@centos.org]On Behalf Of Filipe Brandenburger Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 6:00 PM To: CentOS mailing list Subject: Re: [CentOS] new list proposal
Hi,
On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 20:41, Kenneth Price kprice@nowyouknow.net wrote:
----- "Jeff" jlar310@gmail.com wrote:
I favor one-stop shopping.
I believe creating another list is a mistake. [...] a second list will only encourage cross-posting.
I second that.
As I see it, although this talk of what is on or off topic started on the thread about "parted" (which in my opinion is relevant to CentOS), the thing that really started this was the thread with subject "App Question", which was a cross-post to three different lists with a question as generic as it can get.
A second list will not fix this, the offender will just cross-post to one more list.
Another good example of why this does not work is that, although the centos-virt list exists, many topics that are virtualization-related are discussed on the main list. This does not bother me at all since I subscribe to both.
Sincerely, I believe the most effective tool to reduce the noise would be to reply *off list* to offenders telling them that they should step up and behave properly if they want to take part of the list. Top posting/trimming/html could also be handled with off list replies. This would have the bonus of not creating more noise and having the offender get tons of replies giving them yet another incentive to follow the rules.
The decision is not mine, but I would oppose creating a new list. However, if you do, I will sign up too.
Anyway, just my 2¢ Canadian.
Filipe _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Bruce,
For starters, please start following the basic rules of the list, such as bottom posting and trimming your replies.
On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 21:03, bruce bedouglas@earthlink.net wrote:
my question was vague... but the funny thing.. someone from this list pointed my in the direction of a company/app that appears to do what i'm looking for..
I've seen people ask Windows questions on this list and get answers for their questions too. But asking that question here was not appropriate either.
You act as if you still believe that you did the right thing by cross-posting and asking something not related to CentOS at all on this list.
Filipe
Kenneth Price wrote:
I favor one-stop shopping.
I agree with Jeff. While I understand this general list can become a bit overwhelming for the CentOS Staff, we all must remember that this is a GENERAL list.
I think the general CentOS list should be an open and embracing community. A centos-tech list sounds more like the name of the "developer" or "power user" list than a semi-off-topic technology discussion group. That was my first thought when seeing the new name.
...and fwiw I would put the new list into the same label/folder too, so I don't really care :)
Morten Torstensen wrote:
I think the general CentOS list should be an open and embracing community. A centos-tech list sounds more like the name of the "developer" or "power user" list than a semi-off-topic technology discussion group. That was my first thought when seeing the new name.
What would you recommend as an alternative name for the list ? And it wont be 'offtopic' technology chatter, it will be very much ontopic there :D
Karanbir Singh wrote:
What would you recommend as an alternative name for the list ? And it wont be 'offtopic' technology chatter, it will be very much ontopic there :D
centos-core, centos-base, centos-root, centos-system, centos-admin ... just dropping in some. "tech" is a pretty wide term. This is not really "recommendations", just some alternatives off the top of my head.
Karanbir Singh wrote:
Morten Torstensen wrote:
I think the general CentOS list should be an open and embracing community. A centos-tech list sounds more like the name of the "developer" or "power user" list than a semi-off-topic technology discussion group. That was my first thought when seeing the new name.
What would you recommend as an alternative name for the list ? And it wont be 'offtopic' technology chatter, it will be very much ontopic there :D
I agree with Morten to the extent that I don't think the proposed name(s) of the list(s) convey the distinction(s) between them that well. Your explanation is clear enough but just looking at the list names it maybe not be clear to everyone, particularly new list members who haven't had the benefit of reading this discussion.
Maybe something like centos-support for the current list and centos-techtalk for the proposed new list makes the distinction a little clearer (I'm not a great one for coming up with names - my point is more that maybe the current list name could also be tweaked to aid in differentiating between them).
Karanbir Singh wrote:
Morten Torstensen wrote:
I think the general CentOS list should be an open and embracing community. A centos-tech list sounds more like the name of the "developer" or "power user" list than a semi-off-topic technology discussion group. That was my first thought when seeing the new name.
What would you recommend as an alternative name for the list ? And it wont be 'offtopic' technology chatter, it will be very much ontopic there :D
Centos-applications might make sense if the idea is to cover how to do things using programs that run on Centos - or when/how to replace the packaged apps with newer versions. But you might want hardware advice too.
Les Mikesell wrote:
Centos-applications might make sense if the idea is to cover how to do things using programs that run on Centos - or when/how to replace the packaged apps with newer versions. But you might want hardware advice too.
yes, also the idea of best practices is something that would / should really get more airtime. There is a *lot* of talent on this list, and I feel a lot of conversations dont really get projected well due to the nature of the conversation / this list.
I dont see why people in this thread prefer to ignore that aspect of a new list -> to create an avenue for that extra conversation.
Also, all that talk about Redhat and Fedora lists working well as a single list is just noise. Have you looked at the number of lists there are there ? ( https://redhat.com/mailman/listinfo )
The idea is to create a new list, that focus's on some specific areas, and also provides the means to create more conversations amongst people, Not to kill any one list off or another. The word 'split' does not really figure anywhere in that plan.
- KB
Karanbir Singh:
Morten Torstensen wrote:
I think the general CentOS list should be an open and embracing community. A centos-tech list sounds more like the name of the "developer" or "power user" list than a semi-off-topic technology discussion group. That was my first thought when seeing the new name.
What would you recommend as an alternative name for the list ? And it wont be 'offtopic' technology chatter, it will be very much ontopic there :D
Why not just swap the names? Centos-tech: Technical questions about the CentOS specific stuff Centos-discuss: All other discussions
Frode Petersen
Kenneth Price wrote:
I agree with Jeff. While I understand this general list can become a bit overwhelming for the CentOS Staff, we all must remember that this is a GENERAL list. All questions, from the novice to the expert should be welcome. This list is not only a way to get problems resolved, but a very effective learning tool for all users. Let's remember why we're here. To support and learn from our fellow CentOS users/admins.
I dont agree with you. Here is why:
this list isnt really a general list as you put it, its more of a user-help and support list for people who use and are considering to use CentOS. This list is now also at a stage where the on-topic to off-topic ratio is high enough that plenty of people who join to talk about a specific issue, never return back to the list. So we are not really doing much in terms of building the community, were in a state where there is one group of very vocal people, and lost of drive-by. Is that really the sort of situation we want to encourage and grow further into ?
Also, if you were to be one of the moderators - how many hours a day, 7 days a week would you be offering to do sub minute response rates for all list moderation ?
The CentOS lists are not really moderated much, unless things go very crazy, and imho it would be nice to keep things that way. Focus the conversation, create more avenues for people to interact, and create a feedback loop that really does work. If for most people both the lists are going to be the same thing, well - feel free to subscribe to both. Just consider which one you want to start a conversation in when you do start a conversation and all will be well.
Ofcourse, a mechanism to move a conversation between lists, along with auto-subscribe for all users contributing to that thread, into the moved-to-list, would be great to have!
On Thu, 2008-10-16 at 10:08 +0100, Karanbir Singh wrote:
Kenneth Price wrote:
I agree with Jeff. While I understand this general list can become a bit overwhelming for the CentOS Staff, we all must remember that this is a GENERAL list. All questions, from the novice to the expert should be welcome. This list is not only a way to get problems resolved, but a very effective learning tool for all users. Let's remember why we're here. To support and learn from our fellow CentOS users/admins.
I dont agree with you. Here is why:
this list isnt really a general list as you put it, its more of a user-help and support list for people who use and are considering to use CentOS. This list is now also at a stage where the on-topic to off-topic ratio is high enough that plenty of people who join to talk about a specific issue, never return back to the list. So we are not really doing much in terms of building the community, were in a state where there is one group of very vocal people, and lost of drive-by. Is that really the sort of situation we want to encourage and grow further into ?
Also, if you were to be one of the moderators - how many hours a day, 7 days a week would you be offering to do sub minute response rates for all list moderation ?
The CentOS lists are not really moderated much, unless things go very crazy, and imho it would be nice to keep things that way. Focus the conversation, create more avenues for people to interact, and create a feedback loop that really does work. If for most people both the lists are going to be the same thing, well - feel free to subscribe to both. Just consider which one you want to start a conversation in when you do start a conversation and all will be well.
Ofcourse, a mechanism to move a conversation between lists, along with auto-subscribe for all users contributing to that thread, into the moved-to-list, would be great to have!
---- I have tried to stay out of this.
I recognize that this is not a democracy and the CentOS developers are certainly entitled to operate things, especially the mail lists however they choose.
While I can appreciate that you are of the belief that the CentOS lists are not moderated much, my perception is that it is moderated more than most. Certainly not as moderated as say openldap-software list but nowhere near as free as a Red Hat list.
I also note that moderation comes in 2 forms...the first being when one of the CentOS developers says stop this thread which is irregular, inconsistent and often unnecessary and the second being over zealous people who post more frequently on this list who act as self appointed list moms and are simply too heavy handed.
I personally think that the biggest problem on the list is not the off-topic tangents but rather the efforts by some to express excessive control rather than just delete and move on.
If you are going to go to multiple lists, might I suggest that you have 1 system-admins list and 1 general-users list and you can tightly control the system-admins list.
Craig
Craig White wrote:
If you are going to go to multiple lists, might I suggest that you have 1 system-admins list and 1 general-users list and you can tightly control the system-admins list.
Craig
Craig. I like these definitive names!
But I would like a bit more freedom on the sysadmin list. The ability to get more in depth on particulars and include discussions of other software which interacts with existing systems to aid in going further... extending Centos so to speak.
John Hinton
I also note that moderation comes in 2 forms...the first being when one of the CentOS developers says stop this thread which is irregular,
and you'll also notice that this never works. the thread typically degenerates into the yay-sayers and the nay-sayers, which actually produces *more* noise.
This is not moderation. No threads are ever deleted or locked, even if it were possible.
But instead of filling the list with lots of "please read the f'n rules" followed by "polite" responses, if the lists were split into two distinct categories -- one for general help, one for more technical problems -- then this would cut down the overall noise because posters would have a better understanding of what each list was for and could target their queries more appropriately. In a general help list tangential problems would then be appropriate so the "moderation" wouldn't exist, or at least, not be as heavy handed.
Craig White <> scribbled on Thursday, October 16, 2008 4:24 PM:
If you are going to go to multiple lists, might I suggest that you have 1 system-admins list and 1 general-users list and you can tightly control the system-admins list.
I think you're on to something here. I assume you mean the general-users list would have a higher roof, correct?
/S
----- "Karanbir Singh" mail-lists@karan.org wrote:
Kenneth Price wrote:
I agree with Jeff. While I understand this general list can become
a bit overwhelming for the CentOS Staff, we all must remember that this is a GENERAL list. All questions, from the novice to the expert should be welcome. This list is not only a way to get problems resolved, but a very effective learning tool for all users. Let's remember why we're here. To support and learn from our fellow CentOS users/admins.
I dont agree with you. Here is why:
Karanbir, I'm not going to argue back and forth about who's wrong and who's right, but will simply agree to disagree. I've been a Linux user since 1995, and a CentOS user since it's inception. I love the distro, and love the users - and that includes you, ya big teddy bear.
Ken
On Thu, 2008-10-16 at 10:08 +0100, Karanbir Singh wrote:
this list isnt really a general list as you put it, its more of a user-help and support list for people who use and are considering to use CentOS.
This is my understanding of the purpose of this list.
This list is now also at a stage where the on-topic to off-topic ratio is high enough that plenty of people who join to talk about a specific issue, never return back to the list.
I haven't really noticed the on topic off topic ratio being to high. There will *always* be people who join a list to ask for specific help then unsubscribe after getting their answer. Such is life.
So we are not really doing much in terms of building the community, were in a state where there is one group of very vocal people, and lost of drive-by. Is that really the sort of situation we want to encourage and grow further into ?
Are you saying the on topic posting have diminished and the cause is "very vocal people" and one subject people who are never heard from again? It has been my experience this is mostly a normal situation. It has also been my experience that there are people who just *must* attempt to take over. I would, after they are identified, just remove them from the list and blacklist them. Of course, let them know before hand.
Also, if you were to be one of the moderators - how many hours a day, 7 days a week would you be offering to do sub minute response rates for all list moderation ?
You may be asking for even *more* work with an additional list.
The CentOS lists are not really moderated much, unless things go very crazy, and imho it would be nice to keep things that way. Focus the conversation, create more avenues for people to interact, and create a feedback loop that really does work. If for most people both the lists are going to be the same thing, well - feel free to subscribe to both. Just consider which one you want to start a conversation in when you do start a conversation and all will be well.
If there is a decision to create two different lists, then I would strongly suggest that both be well defined as to the purpose as well as the subject matter allowed.
Ofcourse, a mechanism to move a conversation between lists, along with auto-subscribe for all users contributing to that thread, into the moved-to-list, would be great to have!
Any programmers want to volunteer?
I have said enough already. Goodbye to this thread.
Bob
Jeff jlar310@gmail.com wrote:
I favor one-stop shopping. My $0.02
I favour quality over quantity, and I have $2 to spend. :)
Forums are one-stop shops, and even they have different sub-forums that categorise conversations.
Jeff wrote:
On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 4:52 PM, Karanbir Singh mail-lists@karan.org wrote:
And to better cater to these conversations, as well as further encourage such content, we'd like to propose creating a 'centos-tech' list.
There are probably as many (or more) threads that drift off topic as there are those that start out that way and are labeled as such. I don't think a new list is really going to help create the separation you seek. In fact, introducing a second list will probably generate many conversations on each list that really belong on the other.
I have no trouble navigating the list as is (with gmail) and adding a new list would just mean another subscription to manage. If I subscribed, I would probably give the new list the same label, so it would all be the same to me.
I favor one-stop shopping.
My $0.02
I agree with Jeff, in other forums where that I belong to the distinction between "tech" and "chat" quickly becomes blurred and many posts are cross posted to both (or all) lists, causing duplication in downloads and scanning.
I vote to stay with one list
ChrisG
Chris Geldenhuis wrote:
I agree with Jeff, in other forums where that I belong to the distinction between "tech" and "chat" quickly becomes blurred and many posts are cross posted to both (or all) lists, causing duplication in downloads and scanning.
how about when the distinction is between Support/help and technoglogy/best-practices ?
Karanbir Singh wrote:
Chris Geldenhuis wrote:
I agree with Jeff, in other forums where that I belong to the distinction between "tech" and "chat" quickly becomes blurred and many posts are cross posted to both (or all) lists, causing duplication in downloads and scanning.
how about when the distinction is between Support/help and technoglogy/best-practices ?
It would be easy enough to subscribe or not to a second list. I'm finding that more and more I'm just doing mass deletes from this mailing list and not really gaining anything.... it's a lack of time thing. Some of what creates the lack of time is drudging through 10 or 20 potential 'outside' solutions to solve an issue with our systems. Try signing up for the Sendmail list, the mysql list, the php list, the apache list and then try to read them faster than they come in! And then within one of those other list, with lots of flavors of 'nix, try to come up with a solution that works best within Centos... So you get stuck in no where land... From the Centos side, it's not a Centos issue but instead a 'insert software shipped with distro here' issue.... talk to them. And then from their side, it's a Centos issue and the way upstream does their stuff.
In all fairness, this list has been extremely good about allowing in many cases what gets out there on the edge of Centos topics. At the same time, when we have Centos users who just want to run a personal desktop or laptop... and we have full blown server farms running some of the most cutting edge and powerful systems in the world.... how can we expect to all live under the same roof with one mailing list?
Personally, I run webservers under Centos. One of the nuances that comes with this is spam. I think all on this list who are in the same boat have restrained to a huge degree discussions about dealing with spam or spam filtering. We simply know it could all but take over this list and that it is really not quite appropriate here. DNS, Apache, mail programs... all can lead to in depth discussions.... again not really appropriate on a general list. I have used restraint. I can only suppose that many others have as well.
I very much like the idea of another list, which is for the discussion of more extensive use of Centos. I also believe this list is quite appropriate for 'getting Centos to run' on whatever system you're trying to use. But I'll never need to know how to hook up my camera, get a wireless card to work, figure out why my uber video card doesn't work or really anything to do with a GUI in Centos as these are desktop issues.
I don't want to sound like an elitist or anything... it's just different uses. Neither one is above the others.... just different needs.
Perhaps a new list name that might be considered would be CentOS-Extended or CentOS-Servers. A place where Apache conf can be discussed, as I'm sure the desktop users don't want to hear about this... or running a DNS server... and the hoards of issues that come with running a mailserver.
Best, John Hinton
John Hinton wrote on Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:09:26 -0400:
Perhaps a new list name that might be considered would be CentOS-Extended or CentOS-Servers. A place where Apache conf can be discussed, as I'm sure the desktop users don't want to hear about this... or running a DNS server... and the hoards of issues that come with running a mailserver.
I agree with all you said and I think that a distinction along the lines of how one uses CentOS might indeed help, say centos-server-users and centos-desktop-users or a list that is just about hardware and making it work with CentOS.
Kai
Kai Schaetzl wrote:
I agree with all you said and I think that a distinction along the lines of how one uses CentOS might indeed help, say centos-server-users and centos-desktop-users or a list that is just about hardware and making it work with CentOS.
Out of curiosity which major linux distro operates a fragmented mailing list such as the one proposed? I personally don't see why CentOS should be so elitist seeing it hasn't got the user-base/support-base of the major distros.
Recently Wikipedia migrated from Red Hat/Fedora to Ubuntu? Why didn't they consider CentOS?
I think I've seen Dag Wieers and Johhny Hughes posting questions on the Nahant-list, why not on this list or the Centos forum? Such a fragmentation as that proposed is one guaranteed to turn the CentOS mailing list along the lines of the CentOS forum.
Spike.
On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 9:38 AM, Spike Turner spiketurner09@yahoo.com wrote:
I think I've seen Dag Wieers and Johhny Hughes posting questions on the Nahant-list, why not on this list or the Centos forum? Such a fragmentation as that proposed is one guaranteed to turn the CentOS mailing list along the lines of the CentOS forum.
Spike.
I have been following this thread but have not said anything so far. But this one caught my eyes. Could you elaborate on the "guaranteed to turn the CentOS mailing list along the lines of the CentOS forum" part?
Akemi (toracat, CentOS forum MODERATOR)
Spike Turner wrote:
Out of curiosity which major linux distro operates a fragmented mailing list such as the one proposed?
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo http://lists.debian.org/completeindex.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/ https://ml.mandriva.net/wws/lists
Compared to those CentOS really has few lists.
Recently Wikipedia migrated from Red Hat/Fedora to Ubuntu? Why didn't they consider CentOS?
I don't know - do you?
I think I've seen Dag Wieers and Johhny Hughes posting questions on the Nahant-list, why not on this list or the Centos forum?
Because they had Nahant questions or wanted to make Nahant users or developers aware of something? I think basically they chose the venue they thought to be correct for the question.
Such a fragmentation as that proposed is one guaranteed to turn the CentOS mailing list along the lines of the CentOS forum.
In favour for the forums (and that from me!): It's massively easier to filter out stuff in a mailing list than it is to do so in a forum.
Ralph
Ralph Angenendt wrote:
Out of curiosity which major linux distro operates a fragmented mailing list such as the one proposed?
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo http://lists.debian.org/completeindex.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/ https://ml.mandriva.net/wws/lists
Compared to those CentOS really has few lists.
So the need for a new list is to compete with the big boys rather than improving the CentOS community? Those are full-flavoured distros with hundreds of thousands if not millions of users. Last time I checked the average Fedora user would not need more than the fedora-list and the un-fragmented fedora forum.
See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate and tell me which of the many lists at redhat a typical user needs? Even something as global as fedora has not considered such a liberal idea as that proposed.
Spike.
Spike Turner wrote:
Ralph Angenendt wrote:
Out of curiosity which major linux distro operates a fragmented mailing list such as the one proposed?
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo http://lists.debian.org/completeindex.html https://lists.ubuntu.com/ https://ml.mandriva.net/wws/lists
Compared to those CentOS really has few lists.
So the need for a new list is to compete with the big boys rather than improving the CentOS community?
No, I was just answering your question.
Those are full-flavoured distros with hundreds of thousands if not millions of users.
Oh, you know how many users CentOS has? Care to share?
Ralph
Jeff wrote:
There are probably as many (or more) threads that drift off topic as there are those that start out that way and are labeled as such. I don't think a new list is really going to help create the separation you seek. In fact, introducing a second list will probably generate many conversations on each list that really belong on the other.
Perhaps, that is true. But one point that most people seem to be missing is that the idea of the second list is also to encourage further conversations.
On Thu, 2008-10-16 at 10:02 +0100, Karanbir Singh wrote:
[snip]
Karanbir,
Have you looked at Usenet? It's user post/OT list history? Should give you good information on splitting a list into one or more parts and the results of doing so.
Bob
On Thu, 2008-10-16 at 18:12 +0100, Karanbir Singh wrote:
Bob Taylor wrote:
Have you looked at Usenet? It's user post/OT list history? Should give you good information on splitting a list into one or more parts and the results of doing so.
Last time I checked, there was more than 1 newsgroup.
Of course! I haven't been on the Linux lists for years. I do remember there were several. I meant to be specific to Linux lists for historical information on signal/noise etc. Sorry.
Bob
Karanbir Singh wrote:
Over a period of time, we would like to see the CentOS list become a more user help and distro specific list, with generic conversations moving to the centos-tech list.
perhaps that is why "core" issues in CentOS like the kernel and samba are ignored by the developers? Examples :-
http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos/2008-October/066143.html http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos/2008-October/066154.html
Upsream is blamed/misunderstood for a lot of things but even their developers take time to answer questions on the nahant-list or fedora-list in their spare time.
If the CentOS devs don't have time to answer key questions such as on the kernel but have time to consider fragmenting the mailing list who wins/loses?
If the devs have the choice to ignore the core stuff there is also the option of ignoring the non-core stuff.
Spike.
Spike Turner wrote:
perhaps that is why "core" issues in CentOS like the kernel and samba are ignored by the developers? Examples :-
http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos/2008-October/066143.html
We are not going to rebase except if upstream does. And maybe nobody answered that because nobody is seeing "issues" with that samba version?
http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos/2008-October/066154.html
Yeah, that one is a problem.
Ralph
Spike Turner wrote:
perhaps that is why "core" issues in CentOS like the kernel and samba are ignored by the developers? Examples :-
http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos/2008-October/066143.html
Thats a bit of a dribveby waste of space post that does not really merit a reply from anyone. Also if that was something that concerns you so much, what have you done about it ?
http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos/2008-October/066154.html
Johnny has been working on those.
If the CentOS devs don't have time to answer key questions such as on the kernel but have time to consider fragmenting the mailing list who wins/loses?
What barriers did you run into when you tried to help with the situation and try to be a better member of the community ?
- KB
On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 9:52 AM, Karanbir Singh mail-lists@karan.org wrote:
If the CentOS devs don't have time to answer key questions such as on the kernel but have time to consider fragmenting the mailing list who wins/loses?
What barriers did you run into when you tried to help with the situation and try to be a better member of the community ?
I'm just a small-time CentOS user, working (currently) in an environment where CentOS is a prime candidate as the base OS for our next major systems upgrade (for our application, to be distributed to our entire customer base). At my last job, I was sufficiently impressed with CentOS that I took it home and now use it exclusively for my main desktop, laptop, at-work desktop (on two machines now!), with Window$ running only as a VM using VMWare Server.
I've been in this business a long time, and I've seen a lot of things happen, including splitting of mailing lists or other group-communications efforts, I have a big mouth and am not (too) afraid to use it, I try to be at least a bit funny in my postings, but I also have a fuse that occasionally burns short with what I view as truly stupid questions, and I ask my own fair share of them as well.
That said, I am drawn back to this paragraph from http://www.centos.org/modules/tinycontent/index.php?id=16:
"The CentOS discussion and information list is a general purpose communication list for centos. Security updates are currently announced on this list once daily. This list is read and reply for anyone that is a member of the mailing list. (Archives)"
In that context, there is little that is completely off-topic here, and IMNSHO, rightly so.
As Niki said earlier in this discussion, KISS.
List courtesy demands that when a list moderator (and I don't know who all of these are, but I do know that KB is one of them) says, "this is OT," that's the end of a discussion on this list. (Well, it should be.)
Other than blatantly stupid or obviously unresearched questions (as we see from time to time), the <delete> key/button is a great solution to most of the issues that have given rise to this discussion, and it is a lot less work that splitting (and managing the split of) this list.
IIRC, the most likely effect of such a list split is that one of the new lists will prosper and grow, and the other will atrophy and die, thus replacing this list with one of the new ones, which will then serve the same purpose in the long run as this list already does. It might take months, or years, but that's usually what happens, and it's not worth the upheaval created in the first place.
However, I am neither a moderator nor owner of this list, so I will deal with the administrative decision that is made in this regard my own way, as will we all, and hope that something good comes of it.
I believe that the best "good" that can come from this discussion is that all will realize what a treasure this list is, in its current form, and that it is worth preserving as is.
That's my $40.00 worth ($0.02 in 1960 US money).
Mark Hull-Richter CentOS Linux Software Developer Registered Linux User #472807 - sign up at http://counter.li.org/
Karanbir Singh wrote:
Thats a bit of a dribveby waste of space post that does not really merit a reply from anyone. Also if that was something that concerns you so much, what have you done about it ?
http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos/2008-October/066154.html
Johnny has been working on those.
If the CentOS devs don't have time to answer key
questions such as
on the kernel but have time to consider fragmenting
the mailing list
who wins/loses?
What barriers did you run into when you tried to help with the situation and try to be a better member of the community ?
A driveby waste of space post was one by a certain Karanbir telling someone to recklessly upgrade Gnome when this is supposed to be an enterprise distro.
What do you mean barriers? I have perused through a few lists and none of the the devs on other lists have an attitude like yours. This is why I think this fragmentation of the mailing lists is not to solve any "problem" other than that perceived by those 17 foot tall with egos to match.
If people using CentOS are having problems e.g with the kernel and the devs don't have time to respond to questions on the list or on the forum, they don't have any extra sensory perception powers to automagically know that Johnny is working on those do they?
Spike.
Spike Turner wrote:
A driveby waste of space post was one by a certain Karanbir telling someone to recklessly upgrade Gnome when this is supposed to be an enterprise distro.
Last time I checked, it was still a free world ? unless you live in the US, in which case, all bets are off. And yes, I still maintain that its your machine, you should have the full liberty to do whatever you like with it.
If people using CentOS are having problems e.g with the kernel and the devs don't have time to respond to questions on the list or on the forum, they don't have any extra sensory perception powers to automagically know that Johnny is working on those do they?
you might want to look again, this issue has been raised and spoken about quite a few times, in quite a few different media.
A driveby waste of space post was one by a certain Karanbir telling someone to recklessly upgrade Gnome when this is supposed to be an enterprise distro.
well, if they're running Gnome, then they're probably not using the machine in an "enterprise" capacity. nobody in their right mind would install X on a server.
on 10-16-2008 1:48 PM Spiro Harvey spake the following:
A driveby waste of space post was one by a certain Karanbir telling someone to recklessly upgrade Gnome when this is supposed to be an enterprise distro.
well, if they're running Gnome, then they're probably not using the machine in an "enterprise" capacity. nobody in their right mind would install X on a server.
There are also "Enterprise" desktops. Systems that are desired to be stable over the life of the equipment, but still running X for whatever software it requires.
On Fri, 17 Oct 2008 09:48:31 +1300 Spiro Harvey spiro@knossos.net.nz wrote:
well, if they're running Gnome, then they're probably not using the machine in an "enterprise" capacity. nobody in their right mind would install X on a server.
*blink* I run a couple of Centos 5 application servers with several LTSP thin clients that are used to create several papers, from database management to creating plates for the press.
The folks there "live" on Gnome.
Spiro Harvey wrote:
well, if they're running Gnome, then they're probably not using the machine in an "enterprise" capacity. nobody in their right mind would install X on a server.
Really? What about SLED (Suse Linux Enterprise Desktop) or Red Hat Enterprise Linux Desktop? Read something like http://blogs.computerworld.com/which_linux_makes_the_best_business_windows_r...
When you hear of Linux migration what do you think that encompasses? Moving from IIS to LAMP?
Spike.
Karanbir Singh wrote:
One thing that we are often blamed for is trying to stifle conversations and to discourage people from commenting / contributing / encouraging conversations. And that cant be further from the truth, really. We are all pro-community ( and when I say we, I mean everyone - including the contributors, developers, admins, users, abusers and hey upstream too ).
However, one thing that does get in the way, often, and something that we all feel creates a higher 'noise' ratio is conversations on this list about semi-related stuff, but not something that directly contributes to the general users of CentOS. Conversations that specifically address four areas:
- technologies
- best practices
- deployment strategies and tools
- management strategies and tools
And to better cater to these conversations, as well as further encourage such content, we'd like to propose creating a 'centos-tech' list.
Over a period of time, we would like to see the CentOS list become a more user help and distro specific list, with generic conversations moving to the centos-tech list.
Hi
I understand the eagerness to lower the "noise" ratio, but I think creating another list is not the solution, it will simply create an extra work for the people in the list "centos" in the sense that you will have to keep reminding people to use the "tech" list, or saying to newcomers that should sign for the "tech" list.
Noise is the side effect of the success of the project CentOS. As the project grows, more people will be joining the list, and there will be more noise.
In my opinion there aren't much "off-topic"/noise in this list.
Regards
Marcelo
Marcelo M. Garcia wrote:
I understand the eagerness to lower the "noise" ratio,
I've read and re-read my original email, and not one place can I find something that would lead so many people to believe that the whole aim of the new list was to reduce the noise ratio alone.
Maybe I just didnt word my original email too well. Or perhaps there really is much resistance to talking about stuff along more generic lines here in this community.
- KB
On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 1:20 PM, Karanbir Singh mail-lists@karan.org wrote:
Marcelo M. Garcia wrote:
I understand the eagerness to lower the "noise" ratio,
I've read and re-read my original email, and not one place can I find something that would lead so many people to believe that the whole aim of the new list was to reduce the noise ratio alone.
Maybe I just didnt word my original email too well. Or perhaps there really is much resistance to talking about stuff along more generic lines here in this community.
Given the overall poor reception of the idea, I'd just put it on the back burner for now...
-Ross
On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 10:36 AM, Karanbir Singh mail-lists@karan.org wrote:
Ross Walker wrote:
Given the overall poor reception of the idea, I'd just put it on the back burner for now...
yes, thats sounding like a good idea for the time being.
- KB
Thank you - for listening, participating, discussing and making the right choice.
mhr
Karanbir Singh wrote:
MHR wrote:
Thank you - for listening, participating, discussing and making the right choice.
At the moment, its more a case of a 'failure to communicate' in my opinion. Lets see how it pans out. There are still some really good ideas in this thread, most worth looking at.
- KB
I certainly hope this idea doesn't go into the trash bin. Basically, as a sysadmin, this list is like a 10 to 1 noise to signal ratio for me. Today... Firefox crashes. I don't run Firefox on any of my CentOS machines, nor any GUI. The bulk of the posts seem to regard something that is more desktop related. Please understand this is not a negative as this is one fantastic service to those working with CentOS. All good, 'including' the Firefox thread. That's just today's top 10, 15, or 20 emails I'll get that I just have to delete. Oddly though, I normally at least look at the Firefox stuff to see if there is anything I need to know about.
But there is a big difference with getting CentOS to run, bugs or perceived bugs in CentOS, dealing with various hardware issues versus discussions of best practices for running CentOS or actually, for me, creating a robust system for the public side.
I simply do not understand the closed mind attitudes of creating a second list. If it does not pertain to you, don't sign up for it. But for me, almost everyday, I'm doing a shift select delete of the entire CentOS list simply because I don't have time to sort through the bulk that is not pertinent to me. I actually feel bad for doing this because I am rarely contributing.
Linux distros have changed dramatically over the last ten years. It's simply not as easy as it used to be to get everything to work happily together. There is more of a need now than ever to have best practices especially for public facing servers. Often times there is a fine line between whether it is a CentOS issue, if it is any package provided within CentOS or a case where one needs to go to the provider of the software from which that package is created. Maybe I'm the only one here, but I find it difficult many times to get good help within the lists of those software providers, which can often times be a perfectly fantastic cure, but not one that works well within the constraints of CentOS. (I like those constraints, most of the time).
This list has been very forgiving with regards to almost anything in a very broad range. But, it at the same time has become unwieldy as it's size has grown... a success story that is appreciated.
Yet, I cannot understand why some would be yelling fowl, which in essence is hurting my ability to get and provide help in the specific areas where I have expertise, with the creation of this proposed other email list.
Cut us loose... Lets get into a complete and total discussion of best practices and best software to be used for anti-spam technology layered on top of a CentOS mailserver. Now that's a thread I don't think this general list would appreciate nor tolerate for more than a few hours.
Best, John Hinton
On Thu, 16 Oct 2008 16:44:00 -0400 John Hinton webmaster@ew3d.com wrote:
The bulk of the posts seem to regard something that is more desktop related. Please understand this is not a negative as this is one fantastic service to those working with CentOS. All good,
The reason for this is because there are more and more "Fedora refugees" setting up desktops and everything else using something that they are relatively familiar with (Centos) that doesn't have Fedora's churn and short shelf life.
Centos-on-the-desktop seems like a logical answer and, in fact, folks on the Fedora list (including me) recommend Centos on a regular basis for just that purpose and reason.
Ultimately, I suspect there will be more Centos-on-the-desktop questions and discussions in the future which should be welcomed, hosted and accepted -somewhere-. If that place is not right here, then a place should be created.
On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 4:44 PM, John Hinton webmaster@ew3d.com wrote:
Karanbir Singh wrote:
MHR wrote:
Thank you - for listening, participating, discussing and making the right choice.
At the moment, its more a case of a 'failure to communicate' in my opinion. Lets see how it pans out. There are still some really good ideas in this thread, most worth looking at.
- KB
I certainly hope this idea doesn't go into the trash bin. Basically, as a sysadmin, this list is like a 10 to 1 noise to signal ratio for me. Today... Firefox crashes. I don't run Firefox on any of my CentOS machines, nor any GUI. The bulk of the posts seem to regard something that is more desktop related. Please understand this is not a negative as this is one fantastic service to those working with CentOS. All good, 'including' the Firefox thread. That's just today's top 10, 15, or 20 emails I'll get that I just have to delete. Oddly though, I normally at least look at the Firefox stuff to see if there is anything I need to know about.
What about the sysadmin that needs to support CentOS desktops?
But there is a big difference with getting CentOS to run, bugs or perceived bugs in CentOS, dealing with various hardware issues versus discussions of best practices for running CentOS or actually, for me, creating a robust system for the public side.
Sometimes best practices = creating a robust system for the public side
I simply do not understand the closed mind attitudes of creating a second list. If it does not pertain to you, don't sign up for it. But for me, almost everyday, I'm doing a shift select delete of the entire CentOS list simply because I don't have time to sort through the bulk that is not pertinent to me. I actually feel bad for doing this because I am rarely contributing.
I don't think it's as closed minded as current list members don't feel a real need to have a second list. Just as much harm can be had by spreading things too thin. Say you have 3 lists, but majority of helpful contributors collect in 1 of the 3, which list do you think will get the most traffic, and more infuriating the most OT traffic.
Linux distros have changed dramatically over the last ten years. It's simply not as easy as it used to be to get everything to work happily together. There is more of a need now than ever to have best practices especially for public facing servers. Often times there is a fine line between whether it is a CentOS issue, if it is any package provided within CentOS or a case where one needs to go to the provider of the software from which that package is created. Maybe I'm the only one here, but I find it difficult many times to get good help within the lists of those software providers, which can often times be a perfectly fantastic cure, but not one that works well within the constraints of CentOS. (I like those constraints, most of the time).
This list has been very forgiving with regards to almost anything in a very broad range. But, it at the same time has become unwieldy as it's size has grown... a success story that is appreciated.
Yet, I cannot understand why some would be yelling fowl, which in essence is hurting my ability to get and provide help in the specific areas where I have expertise, with the creation of this proposed other email list.
Cut us loose... Lets get into a complete and total discussion of best practices and best software to be used for anti-spam technology layered on top of a CentOS mailserver. Now that's a thread I don't think this general list would appreciate nor tolerate for more than a few hours.
Any topic on the list goes, just as long as the software is included within the CentOS distribution.
This is CentOS-Users, the general list for all CentOS users.
-Ross
Given the overall poor reception of the idea, I'd just put it on the back burner for now...
yes, thats sounding like a good idea for the time being.
I don't think it is a good idea. I think that we need two separate lists. One for general users, one for server sysadmins.
What we don't know from all the people against splitting the list is in what capacity they are using CentOS. Are they desktop users? Are they running their own home network? Are they small-time sysadmins? Are they managing a Tier 1 ISP?
I would hazard a guess and say that most of the people who are pro-split are people managing bigger networks, and possibly have more experience with linux/unix. I am certainly in this category and I would like to see a new list on the basis that I don't care about typical general chatter or "newbie" problems.
It's also my experience that if you ask people what they want, they will be reluctant to change, just on principle. Make the change for them and they'll adapt (albeit after a bit of whining).
Perhaps another idea would be to have a sysadmin list that is actually moderated. But I think you should split the lists if you want to. It's not a democracy, as has been mentioned. This is your sandpit.
On Fri, Oct 17, 2008, Spiro Harvey wrote:
Given the overall poor reception of the idea, I'd just put it on the back burner for now...
yes, thats sounding like a good idea for the time being.
I don't think it is a good idea. I think that we need two separate lists. One for general users, one for server sysadmins.
What we don't know from all the people against splitting the list is in what capacity they are using CentOS. Are they desktop users? Are they running their own home network? Are they small-time sysadmins? Are they managing a Tier 1 ISP?
I am against splitting, and support a fairly large number of machines here, and at our customer sites. Our customers range from small businesses with fewer than a single Linux box and fewer than a dozen users to regional ISPs with thousands of clients.
I subscribe to about 30 Mailman lists based on the number of monthly reminder notices sitting in my postmaster mail folder here, and we host a small number of Mailman lists as well.
I answer more questions on lists like this than I ask, and have been doing similar e-mail and usenet stuff since the mid '80s when I was a co-moderator on several COMPUSERVE *nix related lists.
FWIW, I have been supporting, integrating, and adminstering *nix systems for 26 years, and Linux systems since 1995 or so starting with Caldera, then SuSE, and now CentOS with a smattering of other Linux systems, FreeBSD, etc. just to make life interesting.
As I said before, I scan the subjects of new threaded messages looking for things that look interesting, deleting far more than I read (hint to newbies -- make subjects meaninful, not just ``help'').
Bill
I'm all for having less traffic on this list, but I don't have a good recipe for that. I doubt that splitting the list will really help much. As others have already said you will probably end up with two lists that have mixed conversations from the topics of both lists. And it won't help with the problem that there are more and more clueless posts where it is very clear that the person asking didn't even think a second about doing some research before asking here.
Try and see.
Kai
Kai Schaetzl wrote:
I'm all for having less traffic on this list, but I don't have a good recipe for that. I doubt that splitting the list will really help much. As others have already said you will probably end up with two lists that have mixed conversations from the topics of both lists. And it won't help with the problem that there are more and more clueless posts where it is very clear that the person asking didn't even think a second about doing some research before asking here.
Maybe it would make more sense to turn this list into 'Centos-users' where anything someone might do would be on topic as long as it involved a system running Centos (or planning to run it). That may be the way everyone but Karanbir thinks of it anyway now. Then add a new list called Centos-development or Centos-bugs to deal specifically with problems in Centos itself or getting it to install. As someone else mentioned, Centos usually 'just works' so that would probably be very low-traffic.
Karanbir Singh wrote:
And to better cater to these conversations, as well as further encourage such content, we'd like to propose creating a 'centos-tech' list.
Over a period of time, we would like to see the CentOS list become a more user help and distro specific list, with generic conversations moving to the centos-tech list.
Nah. It will be too fragmented and people will never figure out the difference between the lists.
Just my $0.02
I was interested in seeing what the actual vote results may be, so here's what I've calculated:
New list as proposed - 5
Keep as is - 11
Either way - 2
Keep + update charter - 2
New list + new name/charter - 6
Not declared - 3
A few folks posted remarks, but I could not detect a vote - that's the not declared category. A few seemed to flip their vote through out the discussion - so I made a best guess as to their intent.
I put myself into the keep as is category.
hey tony...
care to discern the future results of the US pres election!!!
thanks for the laugh...
-----Original Message----- From: centos-bounces@centos.org [mailto:centos-bounces@centos.org]On Behalf Of Toby Bluhm Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 11:32 AM To: CentOS mailing list Subject: Re: [CentOS] new list proposal
I was interested in seeing what the actual vote results may be, so here's what I've calculated:
New list as proposed - 5
Keep as is - 11
Either way - 2
Keep + update charter - 2
New list + new name/charter - 6
Not declared - 3
A few folks posted remarks, but I could not detect a vote - that's the not declared category. A few seemed to flip their vote through out the discussion - so I made a best guess as to their intent.
I put myself into the keep as is category.
Toby Bluhm a écrit :
I put myself into the keep as is category.
Given the popularity of this thread, I suggest creating a centos-meta@centos.org list, where folks can discuss list-related stuff.
"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one frequently goes ranting on and on at ball-breaking length." (Ludwig Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus, first draft)
:o)
Niki
Niki Kovacs wrote:
Given the popularity of this thread, I suggest creating a centos-meta@centos.org list, where folks can discuss list-related stuff.
Popular huh? Let as see some stats on the posts by user
* Karanbir Singh (15) * Spike Turner (10) * Spiro Harvey (8) * Kenneth Price (5) * Frank Cox (4) * Bob Taylor (4) * John Hinton (3) * MHR (3)
CentOS is supposed to be a community supported distro unlike the one where some guy respun it for his library and so could do whatever he wanted.
Fedora has not seen a need to split the main list but has addressed the problem of OT posts or posts without research in the wiki page http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate Upstream/Fedora may be blamed by some but the way they have handled this is real professional.
Who would like the mailing list to be as fragmented as the CentOS forum? Fragmentation means erosion of the userbase and is not good for the community.
Spike.
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 2:28 AM, Spike Turner spiketurner09@yahoo.com wrote:
Who would like the mailing list to be as fragmented as the CentOS forum? Fragmentation means erosion of the userbase and is not good for the community.
Spike.
Once again you are referring to the CentOS forum. Are you saying that the forums are fragmented and therefore "not good for the community" ??? What is your point? By the way, you have not answered my earlier inquiry:
http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos/2008-October/066494.html
Akemi (toracat, CentOS forum MODERATOR)
Akemi Yagi wrote:
Spike Turner wrote:
Who would like the mailing list to be as fragmented as the CentOS forum? Fragmentation means erosion of the userbase and is not good for the community.
Spike.
Once again you are referring to the CentOS forum. Are you saying that the forums are fragmented and therefore "not good for the community" ??? What is your point? By the way, you have not answered my earlier inquiry:
http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos/2008-October/066494.html
This is my own personal view based on :-
- the differences between the fedora and centos forum - (the lack of) participation of known members in the community in the centos forum as compared to fedora. - some may not view the centos forum as fragmented but is the participation at the same level as the unfragmented mailing list?
Spike.
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Spike Turner wrote on Fri, 17 Oct 2008 05:19:36 -0700 (PDT):
- some may not view the centos forum as fragmented
but is the participation at the same level as the unfragmented mailing list?
Couldn't it be that some people simply prefer email over HTML forums? Especially those that have less time for answering other's questions?
Kai
On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 5:19 AM, Spike Turner spiketurner09@yahoo.com wrote:
Akemi Yagi wrote:
Spike Turner wrote:
Who would like the mailing list to be as fragmented as the CentOS forum? Fragmentation means erosion of the userbase and is not good for the community.
Spike.
Once again you are referring to the CentOS forum. Are you saying that the forums are fragmented and therefore "not good for the community" ??? What is your point? By the way, you have not answered my earlier inquiry:
http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos/2008-October/066494.html
This is my own personal view based on :-
- the differences between the fedora and centos forum
- (the lack of) participation of known members in the
community in the centos forum as compared to fedora.
- some may not view the centos forum as fragmented
but is the participation at the same level as the unfragmented mailing list?
Spike.
Thanks for your reply. I wanted to know why you referred to the CentOS forums in relation to the subject of splitting the mailing list.
I can go on with my response to your personal view, but doing so would be way off-topic here in this thread. Therefore, I started an open discussion session in the right place for this topic - not surprisingly - in the CentOS forum:
http://www.centos.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&topic_id...
So, people who are interested, please join in and post your comments and thoughts.
Thanks,
Akemi (toracat, CentOS forum MODERATOR)
Akemi Yagi wrote:
I can go on with my response to your personal view, but doing so would be way off-topic here in this thread. Therefore, I started an open discussion session in the right place for this topic - not surprisingly - in the CentOS forum:
How can a forum possibly be the right place to discuss what people care about in mailing lists? At least until someone sets up a gateway...
<snip>
http://www.centos.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&topic_id...
So, people who are interested, please join in and post your comments and thoughts.
Thanks,
Akemi (toracat, CentOS forum MODERATOR)
This thread has got to have beaten the CentOS record for most posts about nothing!
Or the longest off-topic thread about off-topic threads!
On Fri, 17 Oct 2008, Scott Silva wrote:
This thread has got to have beaten the CentOS record for most posts about nothing!
Or the longest off-topic thread about off-topic threads!
or a sad demonstation by people who know better ignoring Godwin's Law
If people are unwilling to follow long settled email etiquette http://catb.org/jargon/html/G/Godwins-Law.html we are already lost. The trigger was not intentional. The old thread is over.
http://www.templetons.com/brad/emily.html http://people.dsv.su.se/~jpalme/ietf/mailing-list-behaviour.txt
-- Russ herrold
Spike Turner wrote on Fri, 17 Oct 2008 02:28:17 -0700 (PDT):
Popular huh?
You didn't get the subtile irony?
Kai
-
Akemi Yagi -
Bill Campbell -
Bob Taylor -
bruce -
Chris Geldenhuis -
Christopher Chan -
Christopher Chan -
Clint Dilks -
Craig White -
Filipe Brandenburger -
Florin Andrei -
Frank Cox -
Frode Petersen -
Jeff -
John Hinton -
John R Pierce -
Kai Schaetzl -
Karanbir Singh -
Kenneth Price -
Les Mikesell -
Marcelo M. Garcia -
Max Hetrick -
MHR -
Michael Semcheski -
Morten Torstensen -
Ned Slider -
Niki Kovacs -
R P Herrold -
Ralph Angenendt -
Ross Walker -
Scott Silva -
Sorin Srbu -
Spike Turner -
Spiro Harvey -
Toby Bluhm -
William L. Maltby