On 12/10/20 1:19 PM, Josh Boyer wrote: > It would be disingenuous to say Stream won't have bugs. All software > development has bugs. However, the "development and testing" part > actually extends to the development and testing of the software *you* > are developing. Stream exists as a base for you to do your own > development and testing. > What is with you Red Hat people and "developers"? Do you really live in a fairy-tale world where every Linux user is a "developer"? All my ranting I am to commit will be explained at the end of the rant. I started as simple Windows admin and Delphi programmer that in 2004 became small WISP and needed Firewall/router/Web&Mail server. So I installed ClarkConnect 4 and had to learn iptables to overcome CC's web config. In 2007 I started experimenting with standalone Linux system and in 2008 installed C5 web/mail/NFS/Samba server and Desktop systems and was forced to learn how to use them and configure them. Then I learned how to harden Postfix, how to install and maintain Joomla and webshop, then I started learning programming in BASH with ncurses and multidimensional arrays to create TUI script to manage my Wireless routers (ping, trace, backup, login,...). Then I needed another server but because I did not have enough money I ended up creating KVM host/guest, but because my only server was 32-bit and RHEL dropped support for 32-bit KVM hosts, I studied and learned from internet how to build KVM kmod module for 32-bit CPU/kernel (some Hungarian? guy in CentOS community explained it in detail). Everything I learned was when I NEEDED it, and I did it all by my self. After building KVM module and learning how to compile/package rpm's, I decided to rebuild some packages from Fedora to have more tools for my Desktop CentOS 5. I ended up producing around 70 packages including packaging Skype with static libraries into rpm. I was only person in the world to do it, and since almost no one used CentOS 5 as Desktop/laptop, only few people used it. I ended up creating "DentOS" repository with those Desktop packages which mostly only I installed to friends and clients. And my clients were not rich (I am from Serbia and legal software in companies is even today only 30-40%) so even getting them to but a PC for RAID file server needed persuading. I was one of rare ones to create RAID out of partitions and not disks. Why? Because I needed Then I needed to learn some PHP and Python, so I did. I was one of very rare ISP's in my country to provide sending mail via port 587 (with SSL) because largest ISP's allowed sending e-mail for accounts on their mail servers only from inside their own networks and only on port 25. I was shocked to learn of that, but I was pushing the envelope just like I was only one in Serbian Linux community to use CentOS for Desktop/laptop. So even though I was actively preaching about bigger CentOS use to everyone who wanted to listen, and I created largest resources and howto's collection (I became admin of the official CentOS Facebook group in 2011 and ever since published there resources and articles) and I daily solved problems for newbies, beside using it my self as desktop, I rarely built Linux systems and only involvement was "yum update" and some "spring cleaning" on few servers I managed. So in last 10 years I installed only some 4-5 CentOS servers (Samba + KVM host with legal Windows guest), if I do not count several CentOS systems for my own use, mostly Laptops for me. And THAT IS IT, no grand scheme, no dozens or hundreds of servers, no big development projects, no University diploma, just a guy fixing Windows PC's in small IT shop for small number of clients and installing WISP clients. At the moment I am System Admin in a 60-employee company with 50 Windows PC's and 3 FreeNAS/TrueNAS file servers, and the only Linux is my laptop running CentOS 8 with MATE. Now the punchline: MOST CentOS users are like that. Not "developers" but small server owners or hosting renters. I am admin for CentOS Facebook group for 9 years. I grew it from 300 members to 26.800 members. BUT what you do not realize is that vast majority of those Facebook users when they joined our group or "Linux" FB group, where I was one of the admins in ~2010-2015 and advocated CentOS like a biggest zealot, only heard that Linux exist and wanted to learn something. They rented some hosting or Linux VM and needed to learn basics. Only maybe 20-30 members (out of 26.800 + all those that over 9 years left the group or closed the FB account) were established Linux users. When we explain them that there are no audio/video codecs due to legal restrictions, that kernel is backported and adding some module is not possible if they compile vanila kernel because it brakes the kABI, that they need to install centosplus kernel because driver they needed RHEL does not want to support, that CentOS tools for development are too old because of version freeze, that they need to install several 3rd party repositories to make their server work, they then asks us "but why would we use CentOS instead of Debian, Ubuntu, SUSE...?" And every single time the response was "Because Red Hat is great company that created great and very stable product and CentOS is almost total clone of RHEL, and when they learn how to manage CentOS they can go for RH Linux certification. And that is it, for them CentOS does not have any other competitive edge over other Linuxes beside "99% clone of RHEL". SELinux was more of the repelling point, vast majority would just turn it off when they read first Howto on the internet, and great efforts went to lpleading with them to try to learn SELinux. So the fact that there are 1.000 guys that do developing on CentOS does not mean that majority of CentOS users are "developers", on the contrary, vast majority of servers running CentOS, especially rented VM's are run/controlled by guys like me whose main job is not to manged Linux servers, that is only a side job and many only barely understand what they are doing. They installed the system, configured it via some tutorial, and left it running. "First step in solving a problem is realizing there IS a problem.". Your first problem is that you do not understand VAST majority of your users just want Linux server to run their small business they do not have to pay for. And there is no free RHEL license for us with no money and need for Linux server. Your second problem is that main "selling" point for them to use CentOS was "free clone", and only reason they were "sold" that mantra was because us zealots worked very hard to convince them to chose CentOS over other distro's. And we are NOT going to stake OUR credibility to support your illusions of grandeur that CentOS Stream with packages 3-6 months ahead of current RHEL will be stable enough to not cause THEM any problems (including paid-for software like CPanel, Virtualmin, and many others people run on servers). Third problem you have is that while hosting vendors WILL stop offering "CentOS Linux 8" to renters, just like you wanted, they will NOT stake THEIR reputation and pay THEIR support staff for EVERY incident/crash YOUR Stream will cause to THEIR customers. They will continue to offer C7 until 2024 and their EL8 offering will be just switched to ANOTHER clone of RHEL. Since Red Hat is OBLIGATED to publish source code, clones like Springdale and new ones WILL CONTINUE to be built and offered. But now, due to greed of your employers, all of us from EL (Enterprise Linux) community who were loyal to "RHEL clone" known as "CentOS Linux" are going to LEAVE. As soon as I can I will run a Springdale Linux VM to check things out, and as soon as I am satisfied with it I will then change every single CentOS server I have to Springdale. NEVER again will I install a system with CentOS brand, and since no one I know has the money to buy the RHEL license, I will never be in position to offer it to someone, luckily. And I doubt those in the position to recommend some Linux system with subscription are going to recommend RHEL to anyone EVER again after your (Red Hat's) stupid stunt. So feel free to live in your little "developer" fantasy before it comes crashing down when mass exodus occurs, and I will focus on some damage control and try to redirect those leaving CentOS for other distro's to Springdale, so that EL community is damaged as little as possible. -- Ljubomir Ljubojevic (Love is in the Air) PL Computers Serbia, Europe StarOS, Mikrotik and CentOS/RHEL/Linux consultant