On 12/12/2020 01:01, John R. Dennison wrote: > On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 04:50:06PM -0800, Akemi Yagi wrote: >> If you quit those roles, that would be a HUGE loss for the CentOS Project. > Seconded. I mentioned this to Trevor privately earlier but I will say > it here. I would absolutely _hate_ to see Trevor walk away from the > project. That being said, I would respect his decision to do so; people > need to do what is right for them. This week has caused many to > reevaluate their roles and how they spend their time; Trevor is not > alone here. Let's not turn this into a thread to inflate my head size please ;-) Besides, I haven't gone just yet. Currently I can see no reason why I should continue to donate my time to a project that patently obviously doesn't give a shit about its consumers or its contributors. There are several members of the project who I know disagree with the actions taken this week and I commend them. If I had an @redhat.com email address and were in their position I would probably be polishing my CV around about now. I've used RHEL and CentOS for about the last 15 years and I will be re-evaluating the future use of both. I am most definitely not going to be telling my boss that we should spend 4 times our annual hardware budget on RHEL license fees. Dear Red Hat Management, the time to make this sort of annoucement was in 2019 when you were busy sitting on the fence about whether or not to announce CentOS Linux 8 at all. I'm fairly sure that at least some of those responsible for this decision read my email to Red Hat about that back then and I gather that that email may have had some small impact on the decisions that were made back then. However, if you were going to kill it then *that* was the time to do it or at least that was the time to be honest about your intentions for it. Not hiding behind "well we never put an EOL date out for it". Since when has Red Hat _ever_ done that for CentOS before? Now, you've not only let down a lot of people by withdrawing support for CentOS, which would have been bad but understandable, you've also allowed EOL expectations to remain and you released a product in 2019 that everyone assumed was set to remain until 2029. You didn't disabuse anyone of the expectation that it would remain for 10 years. You *deliberately* kept quiet about it. That was stupid. Possibly even borderline dishonest. Certainly disingenuous. So now you have a very large number of systems out there which a lot people have put a lot of effort into installing with CentOS Linux 8 that either need to be reinstalled with something else or people need to get used to them being broken on a regular basis. I am very sure that that will not have made you popular. The honest thing to have said back then would have been "We are announcing that there will be no CentOS Linux 8 but support for CentOS 6 and 7 will continue until their expected EOL dates. We are grateful to all those who have contributed to the project over the years (but we have found it impacts our bottom line too much to continue with our sponsorship). Here, have this perpetual beta instead.". There would have been a lot of disappointment and probably some anger but now you've magnified both of those and added "betrayal" into the mix. Well done! Oh yes, I am sure that you will tell me all about your QA and CI and whatever to uncover bugs before things are released but realistically I'm sure that there are numbers of people who delay updating even to a new RHEL point release for fear of the "what have they broken this time" lottery. And that's on a RHEL point release which undergoes months of beta before it comes out. Are you telling me that the same amount of effort will be put into every Stream update that is put into a RHEL point release? I don't think so. Stream is going to break. It's going to break quite often. It's a snapshot of a development project, breakage is in its job description and you're using us to test it. It's not a CentOS Linux substitute. There's also the issue of the KABI problem which basically kills off the ELRepo project who have done such a sterling job for years to support hardware that Red Hat don't want to bother with. That's the bit that kills off my ability to use Stream. I run multiple physical machines using DRBD to make up HA pairs and I can only do that thanks to the stable KABI that Stream does not have. I'd be better off running Fedora. For a business! Trevor