I was in the #centos-social channel and simply stated that I noticed CentOS 3-4 were getting a lot of updates. I also stated that the CentOS 5 was one kernel behind, as in RHEL it is at -53, the gentlemen then told me that I was wrong and it was at -21. I then asked if there was a way to get a progress report somehow on 5.2, and that 5.2 has already upgraded that kernel. The result was that I was banned for being correct. I dont understand this kind of support.
James Bunnell wrote:
I was in the #centos-social channel and simply stated that I noticed CentOS 3-4 were getting a lot of updates. I also stated that the CentOS 5 was one kernel behind, as in RHEL it is at -53, the gentlemen then told me that I was wrong and it was at -21. I then asked if there was a way to get a progress report somehow on 5.2, and that 5.2 has already upgraded that kernel. The result was that I was banned for being correct. I dont understand this kind of support.
Progress report on 5.2 : it will be ready in a few days, expect release in a few weeks.
On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 15:54 +0100, Karanbir Singh wrote:
James Bunnell wrote:
I was in the #centos-social channel and simply stated that I noticed CentOS 3-4 were getting a lot of updates. I also stated that the CentOS 5 was one kernel behind, as in RHEL it is at -53, the gentlemen then told me that I was wrong and it was at -21. I then asked if there was a way to get a progress report somehow on 5.2, and that 5.2 has already upgraded that kernel. The result was that I was banned for being correct. I dont understand this kind of support.
Progress report on 5.2 : it will be ready in a few days, expect release in a few weeks.
thank you, this is all i have asked for, and no one until now has had an update since the planet.centos.org posting. thanks.
James Bunnell wrote:
I was in the #centos-social channel and simply stated that I noticed CentOS 3-4 were getting a lot of updates. I also stated that the CentOS 5 was one kernel behind, as in RHEL it is at -53, the gentlemen then told me that I was wrong and it was at -21. I then asked if there was a way to get a progress report somehow on 5.2, and that 5.2 has already upgraded that kernel. The result was that I was banned for being correct. I dont understand this kind of support.
You are NOT correct ...
The latest NON 5.2 kernel is:
ftp://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/enterprise/5Client/en/os/SRPMS/kernel-2.6.18-53.1.21.el5.src.rpm
The latest 5.2 kernel is:
ftp://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/enterprise/5Client/en/os/SRPMS/kernel-2.6.18-92.1.1.el5.src.rpm
As far as being banned on an IRC Channel ... I am sure you were warned first. CentOS is manned by volunteers. If you want to argue with the people who are on IRC after they tell you not to, then you will be banned.
The CentOS project trusts the judgment of our forum moderators and our IRC ops ... if they ban you then you are banned. We are not a for profit company where you pay us for service and can be disrespectful to our employees. You will instead have to be polite in your disagreements.
If this is a problem, I suggest that you find a paid for service contract where you can be rude to the people with whom you interact.
Thanks, Johnny Hughes
On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 09:57 -0500, Johnny Hughes wrote:
James Bunnell wrote:
I was in the #centos-social channel and simply stated that I noticed CentOS 3-4 were getting a lot of updates. I also stated that the CentOS 5 was one kernel behind, as in RHEL it is at -53, the gentlemen then told me that I was wrong and it was at -21. I then asked if there was a way to get a progress report somehow on 5.2, and that 5.2 has already upgraded that kernel. The result was that I was banned for being correct. I dont understand this kind of support.
You are NOT correct ...
The latest NON 5.2 kernel is:
ftp://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/enterprise/5Client/en/os/SRPMS/kernel-2.6.18-53.1.21.el5.src.rpm
looks like -53 to me
The latest 5.2 kernel is:
ftp://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/enterprise/5Client/en/os/SRPMS/kernel-2.6.18-92.1.1.el5.src.rpm
this is a new kernel as of today, may 22 compilation date
As far as being banned on an IRC Channel ... I am sure you were warned first. CentOS is manned by volunteers. If you want to argue with the people who are on IRC after they tell you not to, then you will be banned.
yes i was warned, however, can they not admit when they are wrong? and because its volunteers (like debian), all the more reason to be professional.
The CentOS project trusts the judgment of our forum moderators and our IRC ops ... if they ban you then you are banned. We are not a for profit company where you pay us for service and can be disrespectful to our employees. You will instead have to be polite in your disagreements.
i have been polite for weeks. i finally had a enough of being polite and just being told, 'it will be release when its ready.' that is not a professional answer. is it too much to ask for an update?
If this is a problem, I suggest that you find a paid for service contract where you can be rude to the people with whom you interact.
i do pay for rhel. i made the mistake of converting to centos. damage is done. on the next major upgrade, i will return to rhel and will not professionally recommend centos either privately,personally, or in the realm of a business. thanks for seeing my side of the issue and not jumping on the elite bandwagon. i am done.
Thanks, Johnny Hughes
CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
James Bunnell wrote:
i do pay for rhel. i made the mistake of converting to centos. damage is done. on the next major upgrade, i will return to rhel and will not professionally recommend centos either privately,personally, or in the realm of a business. thanks for seeing my side of the issue and not jumping on the elite bandwagon. i am done.
Community base OSS solutions are not for everyone. Only the end-user can decide if it works for them or not. I hope you will see that once the anger subsides.
-Ross
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On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 11:35 -0400, Ross S. W. Walker wrote:
James Bunnell wrote:
i do pay for rhel. i made the mistake of converting to centos. damage is done. on the next major upgrade, i will return to rhel and will not professionally recommend centos either privately,personally, or in the realm of a business. thanks for seeing my side of the issue and not jumping on the elite bandwagon. i am done.
Community base OSS solutions are not for everyone. Only the end-user can decide if it works for them or not. I hope you will see that once the anger subsides.
-Ross
community based OSS also require a level of professionalism and support. if simple questions like asking for an update to the progress of a project or stating someone may be in error upsets one of the members of that project, maybe that person should not be involved.
This e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is intended only for use by the addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail, and any attachments thereto, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify the sender and permanently delete the original and any copy or printout thereof.
CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 09:45:36AM -0600, James Bunnell wrote:
On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 11:35 -0400, Ross S. W. Walker wrote:
James Bunnell wrote: > i do pay for rhel. i made the mistake of converting to > centos. damage is done. on the next major upgrade, i will > return to rhel and will not professionally recommend centos > either privately,personally, or in the realm of a business. > thanks for seeing my side of the issue and not jumping on the > elite bandwagon. i am done. Community base OSS solutions are not for everyone. Only the end-user can decide if it works for them or not. I hope you will see that once the anger subsides. -Rosscommunity based OSS also require a level of professionalism and support. if simple questions like asking for an update to the progress of a project or stating someone may be in error upsets one of the members of that project, maybe that person should not be involved.
No, it doesn't require *anything*. That said, CentOS does provide professionalism and support, but by no means is it a requirement.
I would agree though, it sounds like RH is a better choice for your needs, and more specifically, a better fit for your method of interaction.
You're not going to find many volunteers who react well to being cursed at or otherwise abused verbally.
Ray
On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 08:48 -0700, Ray Van Dolson wrote:
On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 09:45:36AM -0600, James Bunnell wrote:
On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 11:35 -0400, Ross S. W. Walker wrote:
James Bunnell wrote: > i do pay for rhel. i made the mistake of converting to > centos. damage is done. on the next major upgrade, i will > return to rhel and will not professionally recommend centos > either privately,personally, or in the realm of a business. > thanks for seeing my side of the issue and not jumping on the > elite bandwagon. i am done. Community base OSS solutions are not for everyone. Only the end-user can decide if it works for them or not. I hope you will see that once the anger subsides. -Rosscommunity based OSS also require a level of professionalism and support. if simple questions like asking for an update to the progress of a project or stating someone may be in error upsets one of the members of that project, maybe that person should not be involved.
No, it doesn't require *anything*. That said, CentOS does provide professionalism and support, but by no means is it a requirement.
you expect people to use OSS and be treated like crap? being treated like crap is the competitor's job.
I would agree though, it sounds like RH is a better choice for your needs, and more specifically, a better fit for your method of interaction.
You're not going to find many volunteers who react well to being cursed at or otherwise abused verbally.
and you're not going to find too many people in business that want to ask a question and are blatently put off.
Ray _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 4:54 PM, James Bunnell jbunnell@belencomputers.com wrote:
you expect people to use OSS and be treated like crap? being treated like crap is the competitor's job.
Regardless of OSS or professional paid support - *nobody* deserves to receive abuse of any kind. If you dislike the way you've been treated, you write and complain - nobody should ever need to resort to swearing or insults. At all.
M.
On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 16:57 +0100, Martyn Drake wrote:
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 4:54 PM, James Bunnell jbunnell@belencomputers.com wrote:
you expect people to use OSS and be treated like crap? being treated like crap is the competitor's job.
Regardless of OSS or professional paid support - *nobody* deserves to receive abuse of any kind. If you dislike the way you've been treated, you write and complain - nobody should ever need to resort to swearing or insults. At all.
and i agree with you. banning in irc is an insult when based on nothing but personal disagreement. swearing is a knee-jerk defense to the abuse of irc operators and admittedly should not have happened.
M.
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 5:04 PM, James Bunnell jbunnell@belencomputers.com wrote:
and i agree with you. banning in irc is an insult when based on nothing but personal disagreement. swearing is a knee-jerk defense to the abuse of irc operators and admittedly should not have happened.
Is this an apology I see forthcoming? :)
Anyway, let's all move on..
M. - A member of the OSS and general IT Peacekeeping Taskforce ;)
On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 09:54:08AM -0600, James Bunnell wrote:
On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 08:48 -0700, Ray Van Dolson wrote:
On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 09:45:36AM -0600, James Bunnell wrote: > > On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 11:35 -0400, Ross S. W. Walker wrote: > > James Bunnell wrote: > > > i do pay for rhel. i made the mistake of converting to > > centos. damage is done. on the next major upgrade, i will > > return to rhel and will not professionally recommend centos > > either privately,personally, or in the realm of a business. > > thanks for seeing my side of the issue and not jumping on the > > elite bandwagon. i am done. > > Community base OSS solutions are not for everyone. Only the > end-user can decide if it works for them or not. I hope you will > see that once the anger subsides. > > -Ross > > > community based OSS also require a level of professionalism and support. if > simple questions like asking for an update to the progress of a project or > stating someone may be in error upsets one of the members of that project, > maybe that person should not be involved. > No, it doesn't require *anything*. That said, CentOS does provide professionalism and support, but by no means is it a requirement.you expect people to use OSS and be treated like crap? being treated like crap is the competitor's job.
I expect people who feel they are treated like crap to do one of two things:
1. Get involved to try and make things better (I guess you could argue you are doing this albeit in a really ineffective manner :) 2. Move on to antoher project
If CentOS noticed a huge decline in users they might be concerned about this. They haven't; you're probably the only one I've heard bringing up this issue and honestly it sounds like you were the cause of the problem.
This is not an issue for CentOS currently.
I would agree though, it sounds like RH is a better choice for your needs, and more specifically, a better fit for your method of interaction. You're not going to find many volunteers who react well to being cursed at or otherwise abused verbally.and you're not going to find too many people in business that want to ask a question and are blatently put off.
You need to grasp that CentOS is *not* run like a business. It is a project worked on by others, for free, in ther spare time, most of them with technical interests. You need to approach it in this manner.
You're going to get blown off if you come around acting like a paying customer deserving of support when you haven't contributed anything yourself persoanlly to the product.
This is open source etiquette. It differs from business etiquette where you are more than welcoem to berate and yell and holler about things because you're paying someone a lot of money.
Ray
On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 09:01 -0700, Ray Van Dolson wrote:
I expect people who feel they are treated like crap to do one of two things:
- Get involved to try and make things better (I guess you could
argue you are doing this albeit in a really ineffective manner :) 2. Move on to antoher project
i was told early on, that it took an invite to get involved.
If CentOS noticed a huge decline in users they might be concerned about this. They haven't; you're probably the only one I've heard bringing up this issue and honestly it sounds like you were the cause of the problem.
that may be your perception. perhaps you would want to look at the logs so you would know.
This is not an issue for CentOS currently.
too bad.
I would agree though, it sounds like RH is a better choice for your needs, and more specifically, a better fit for your method of interaction. You're not going to find many volunteers who react well to being cursed at or otherwise abused verbally.
and users do not react well to being told rudely 'it will be ready when its ready', that is just rude.
and you're not going to find too many people in business that want to ask a question and are blatently put off.
You need to grasp that CentOS is *not* run like a business. It is a project worked on by others, for free, in ther spare time, most of them with technical interests. You need to approach it in this manner.
You're going to get blown off if you come around acting like a paying customer deserving of support when you haven't contributed anything yourself persoanlly to the product.
i do not perceive it as a paying customer, and i was not the one that brought that up. now that it has been brought up, what is the mission of CentOS ?
This is open source etiquette. It differs from business etiquette where you are more than welcoem to berate and yell and holler about things because you're paying someone a lot of money.
the etiquette is rudeness to promote open source? is this what you are saying?
Ray _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
This is open source etiquette. It differs from business etiquette where you are more than welcoem to berate and yell and holler about things because you're paying someone a lot of money.the etiquette is rudeness to promote open source? is this what you are saying?
No, the etiquette is that you need to approach developer and volunteers as just that -- people who are doing this in their spare time. Do not be demanding, go the extra mile yourself ahead of time to seek answers on your own, and give these folks the benefit of the doubt if they don't act like support staff at RH; it isn't their job.
This part is on you, and is the only part you can control directly. I know from experience that more often than not you'll get much more helpful and open responses back if you use the above approach.
HTH Ray
On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 09:19 -0700, Ray Van Dolson wrote:
This is open source etiquette. It differs from business etiquette where you are more than welcoem to berate and yell and holler about things because you're paying someone a lot of money.the etiquette is rudeness to promote open source? is this what you are saying?
No, the etiquette is that you need to approach developer and volunteers as just that -- people who are doing this in their spare time. Do not be demanding, go the extra mile yourself ahead of time to seek answers on your own, and give these folks the benefit of the doubt if they don't act like support staff at RH; it isn't their job.
i have a little familiarity with open source, perhaps more than noted, and i what i am seeing here is centos saying that since we're not paid, we dont care. i think there are many projects that would not want this image. sounds like failure to me. hence, i am not so sure this is anything to be proud of. anyway, time to move on.
This part is on you, and is the only part you can control directly. I know from experience that more often than not you'll get much more helpful and open responses back if you use the above approach.
HTH Ray _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 10:35:18AM -0600, James Bunnell wrote:
On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 09:19 -0700, Ray Van Dolson wrote:
> This is open source etiquette. It differs from business etiquette > where you are more than welcoem to berate and yell and holler about > things because you're paying someone a lot of money. > > > the etiquette is rudeness to promote open source? is this what you are saying? > No, the etiquette is that you need to approach developer and volunteers as just that -- people who are doing this in their spare time. Do not be demanding, go the extra mile yourself ahead of time to seek answers on your own, and give these folks the benefit of the doubt if they don't act like support staff at RH; it isn't their job.i have a little familiarity with open source, perhaps more than noted, and i what i am seeing here is centos saying that since we're not paid, we dont care. i think there are many projects that would not want this image. sounds like failure to me. hence, i am not so sure this is anything to be proud of. anyway, time to move on.
The woe-is-me attitude has to go for starters. When asking any question of anyone involved with an OSS project, keep in mind:
- These are people who are not being compensated in any way shape or form - They are likely spending time working directly on things, and any time deveoted to "users" is an extra - They are likely innundated with similar questions all the time - They are more likely to be interested in assisting those who assist themselves - They are more likely to be interested in helping those who bend over backwards to be polite and appreciative of the work they are getting for free.
Frame your questions and reactions with these things in mind, develop a bit thicker skin. Run everything said by a developer type through the nerd "tact filter" too:
http://www.mit.edu/~jcb/tact.html
This applies for any project, not just CentOS!
Ok, I'm done beating this dead horse. :)
On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 09:52 -0700, Ray Van Dolson wrote:
Frame your questions and reactions with these things in mind, develop a bit thicker skin. Run everything said by a developer type through the nerd "tact filter" too:
http://www.mit.edu/~jcb/tact.html
This applies for any project, not just CentOS!
Ok, I'm done beating this dead horse. :)
ive seen this before, and its a good point, and well taken, however, i think it needs to be taken seriously on both sides as well :)
CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
James Bunnell wrote:
On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 09:19 -0700, Ray Van Dolson wrote:
<snip>
i have a little familiarity with open source, perhaps more than noted, and i what i am seeing here is centos saying that since we're not paid, we dont care. i think there are many projects that would not want this image. sounds like failure to me. hence, i am not so sure this is anything to be proud of. anyway, time to move on.
OK .. I am the one who said it, so I will make it clear
1. CentOS-5.2 will be ready when it is ready.
2. You can not be a ass on our IRC channels, or on our mailing lists.
3. If you (or anyone else for that matter) does not like this, then please do not use our products.
We produce a very professional product and we have professional area where we interact. To maintain professionalism, we do not allow profanity on the channels. We also require people to be somewhat polite.
Because we do this as volunteers, *I DEMAND* that our volunteers be treated respectfully ... this is not negotiable. If you can not do so, then *I will personally* ban you from all mailing lists and irc channels that have anything to do with CentOS.
If you, or anyone else, doesn't like it ... and if that has an effect on CentOS, then so be it. However, those actions will be taken if necessary.
This part is on you, and is the only part you can control directly. I know from experience that more often than not you'll get much more helpful and open responses back if you use the above approach.
We do not have a release date yet ... we do have a goal, and that goal is to release about a month after the upstream release.
My whole point is, I am not beholding to provide any service to you or provide any updates to you on when CentOS-5.2 will be released or provide any services for you.
We have made a statement, and we will update it if it looks like it is not accurate. We will release CentOS-5.2 RPMS to QA as soon as it is ready ... and we will release it to the mirrors after QA is done. We do not know when that will be yet, but it will be "When it is ready". It can not happen before that.
If "when it is ready" is going to be significantly different than what we put out on the list or on planet.centos.org, then we will also put that out.
If that is not good enough for you, then this project is not what you should be using.
Johnny Hughes wrote:
- You can not be a ass on our IRC channels, or on our mailing lists.
I object to your language on the list!
You MUST use the word "an" as a preposition to a noun beginning with a vowel!
What is this world coming to!
-Ross
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On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 1:15 PM, Ross S. W. Walker rwalker@medallion.com wrote:
Johnny Hughes wrote:
- You can not be a ass on our IRC channels, or on our mailing lists.
I object to your language on the list!
You MUST use the word "an" as a preposition to a noun beginning with a vowel!
What is this world coming to!
You sir, are a winner! You may come to the front and collect one free Internet in the color of your choosing
One of the best followups all afternoon!
Jim Perrin wrote:
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 1:15 PM, Ross S. W. Walker rwalker@medallion.com wrote:
Johnny Hughes wrote:
- You can not be a ass on our IRC channels, or on our mailing lists.
I object to your language on the list!
You MUST use the word "an" as a preposition to a noun beginning with a vowel!
What is this world coming to!
You sir, are a winner! You may come to the front and collect one free Internet in the color of your choosing
Oh oh oh, I'll take mine in red please!
-Ross
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James Bunnell wrote:
i was told early on, that it took an invite to get involved.
Subscribing to centos-devel or starting a SIG or doing a project on http://projects.centos.org/ does not require *any* invitation and that is where involvement starts. Well, it even does start on a lower level - by supporting other users on IRC, forums or mailing lists. Which also does not require an invitation. Neither does writing up documentation on the Wiki.
Access to packages preliminary to release or access to build hosts - that requires an invitation. But that is on top of the involvement process.
If CentOS noticed a huge decline in users they might be concerned about this. They haven't; you're probably the only one I've heard bringing up this issue and honestly it sounds like you were the cause of the problem.
that may be your perception. perhaps you would want to look at the logs so you would know.
Others probably had another perception - and I think that today might have been just "the icing on the cake".
This is not an issue for CentOS currently.
too bad.
Errm.
and users do not react well to being told rudely 'it will be ready when its ready', that is just rude.
But it will only be ready when it is ready. If there would be a known date or even week, that would have been announced. But from the beginning on people have been told that it normally takes three to four weeks for CentOS to follow up on a release from upstream. And I don't see anything rude in stating exactly that - it is ready when it is ready. And the time frame within that "is ready" will happen is still the same as in Tim's blog post on planet.centos.org.
What is rude about that?
i do not perceive it as a paying customer, and i was not the one that brought that up. now that it has been brought up, what is the mission of CentOS ?
To provide people with a free (as in beer, RHEL and CentOS are also free as in free speech) Enterprise Linux Distribution. I think that counts as goal No. 1.
This is open source etiquette. It differs from business etiquette where you are more than welcoem to berate and yell and holler about things because you're paying someone a lot of money.
the etiquette is rudeness to promote open source? is this what you are saying?
No. But people rather do work on stuff so that it does get ready than to market around it and promise stuff that won't happen.
Ralph
On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 18:34 +0200, Ralph Angenendt wrote:
Subscribing to centos-devel or starting a SIG or doing a project on http://projects.centos.org/ does not require *any* invitation and that is where involvement starts. Well, it even does start on a lower level - by supporting other users on IRC, forums or mailing lists. Which also does not require an invitation. Neither does writing up documentation on the Wiki.
the problem here is that i thought i saw where a person had to have permission for these things such as the wiki. when some asks a question in irc which may be a general linux question, should they be told that centos doesnt support it therefore go away? the impression here is that if its not a centos rpm, then we want nothing to do with it. while that may be true in fact, i think this is wrong inherently with the mission of centos to tell someone this. i understand it gets old to sit and watch these kind of questions all the time, maybe someone needs a break then.
Access to packages preliminary to release or access to build hosts - that requires an invitation. But that is on top of the involvement process.
understood.
If CentOS noticed a huge decline in users they might be concerned about this. They haven't; you're probably the only one I've heard bringing up this issue and honestly it sounds like you were the cause of the problem.
that may be your perception. perhaps you would want to look at the logs so you would know.
Others probably had another perception - and I think that today might have been just "the icing on the cake".
this is unfortunate and a failure of this type of communication.
and users do not react well to being told rudely 'it will be ready when its ready', that is just rude.
But it will only be ready when it is ready. If there would be a known date or even week, that would have been announced. But from the beginning on people have been told that it normally takes three to four weeks for CentOS to follow up on a release from upstream. And I don't see anything rude in stating exactly that - it is ready when it is ready. And the time frame within that "is ready" will happen is still the same as in Tim's blog post on planet.centos.org.
What is rude about that?
its seen as a non-definitive answer to a question that would normally ask for more detail. i.e., a copout.
i do not perceive it as a paying customer, and i was not the one that brought that up. now that it has been brought up, what is the mission of CentOS ?
To provide people with a free (as in beer, RHEL and CentOS are also free as in free speech) Enterprise Linux Distribution. I think that counts as goal No. 1.
does this include support in IRC? or mailing lists and forums only? (just curious) notice my criticism here is the IRC channels only and the responses there.
This is open source etiquette. It differs from business etiquette where you are more than welcoem to berate and yell and holler about things because you're paying someone a lot of money.
the etiquette is rudeness to promote open source? is this what you are saying?
No. But people rather do work on stuff so that it does get ready than to market around it and promise stuff that won't happen.
Ralph _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 09:01 -0700, Ray Van Dolson wrote:
<snip>
This is open source etiquette. It differs from business etiquette where you are more than welcoem to berate and yell and holler about things because you're paying someone a lot of money.
Respectfully, when I was doing this professionally I didn't not permit any abuse regardless of $$. I've hung up the phone, turned and walked away many times. I made a *very* decent living in spite of this. I didn't want and did not retain customers that thought their $$ bought them rights to abuse.
It is a mutual respect issue that is not modified by $$.
I do my best to give basic respect regardless of $$. More and less is then earned by the individuals involved.
MHO
Ray
<snip sig stuff>
On Thursday 05 June 2008 16:54:08 James Bunnell wrote:
you expect people to use OSS and be treated like crap? being treated like crap is the competitor's job.
It's no-one's job to be treated like crap. Under any circumstance.
You're not going to find many volunteers who react well to being cursed at or otherwise abused verbally.
and you're not going to find too many people in business that want to ask a question and are blatently put off.
Having been in business before my retirement, I can assure you that I was never rude to anyone I contacted. Under any circumstance.
Anne
on 6-5-2008 8:30 AM James Bunnell spake the following:
On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 09:57 -0500, Johnny Hughes wrote:
James Bunnell wrote:
I was in the #centos-social channel and simply stated that I noticed CentOS 3-4 were getting a lot of updates. I also stated that the CentOS 5 was one kernel behind, as in RHEL it is at -53, the gentlemen then told me that I was wrong and it was at -21. I then asked if there was a way to get a progress report somehow on 5.2, and that 5.2 has already upgraded that kernel. The result was that I was banned for being correct. I dont understand this kind of support.
You are NOT correct ...
The latest NON 5.2 kernel is:
ftp://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/enterprise/5Client/en/os/SRPMS/kernel-2.6.18-53.1.21.el5.src.rpm
looks like -53 to me
The latest 5.2 kernel is:
ftp://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/enterprise/5Client/en/os/SRPMS/kernel-2.6.18-92.1.1.el5.src.rpm
this is a new kernel as of today, may 22 compilation date
As far as being banned on an IRC Channel ... I am sure you were warned first. CentOS is manned by volunteers. If you want to argue with the people who are on IRC after they tell you not to, then you will be banned.
yes i was warned, however, can they not admit when they are wrong? and because its volunteers (like debian), all the more reason to be professional.
The CentOS project trusts the judgment of our forum moderators and our IRC ops ... if they ban you then you are banned. We are not a for profit company where you pay us for service and can be disrespectful to our employees. You will instead have to be polite in your disagreements.
i have been polite for weeks. i finally had a enough of being polite and just being told, 'it will be release when its ready.' that is not a professional answer. is it too much to ask for an update?
If this is a problem, I suggest that you find a paid for service contract where you can be rude to the people with whom you interact.
i do pay for rhel. i made the mistake of converting to centos. damage is done. on the next major upgrade, i will return to rhel and will not professionally recommend centos either privately,personally, or in the realm of a business. thanks for seeing my side of the issue and not jumping on the elite bandwagon. i am done.
No wonder you were banned on #irc. I personally am more than happy to wait. I came here from Whitebox linux, and it is even slower there. One person is doing what the entire team is doing here. I also know that if I am in that big of a hurry, I can down the src rpms and start building... But I won't.
Johnny, Karanbir, Russ, Seth, Dag, Jim, Donavan, and every one else on the team that I most surely missed... You do a bang up job, and our thanks go to your tireless and mostly unpaid contributions to this project! If I have to wait a week or a month for a new release... so be it. The security updates are what is most important, and those come very quickly.
Again ... Thank you all!
Scott Silva wrote:
on 6-5-2008 8:30 AM James Bunnell spake the following:
i do pay for rhel. i made the mistake of converting to centos. damage is done. on the next major upgrade, i will return to rhel and will not professionally recommend centos either privately,personally, or in the realm of a business. thanks for seeing my side of the issue and not jumping on the elite bandwagon. i am done.
No wonder you were banned on #irc. I personally am more than happy to wait. I came here from Whitebox linux, and it is even slower there. One person is doing what the entire team is doing here. I also know that if I am in that big of a hurry, I can down the src rpms and start building... But I won't.
Johnny, Karanbir, Russ, Seth, Dag, Jim, Donavan, and every one else on the team that I most surely missed... You do a bang up job, and our thanks go to your tireless and mostly unpaid contributions to this project! If I have to wait a week or a month for a new release... so be it. The security updates are what is most important, and those come very quickly.
I second that!
Besides I am in no hurry to start the whole change management process again.
Feels like I just finished upgrading to 5.1 ... Oh wait, I did!
-Ross
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On 6/5/08, Ross S. W. Walker rwalker@medallion.com wrote:
Scott Silva wrote:
on 6-5-2008 8:30 AM James Bunnell spake the following:
i do pay for rhel. i made the mistake of converting to centos. damage is done. on the next major upgrade, i will return to rhel and will not professionally recommend centos either privately,personally, or in the realm of a business. thanks for seeing my side of the issue and not jumping on the elite bandwagon. i am done.
No wonder you were banned on #irc. I personally am more than happy to wait. I came here from Whitebox linux, and it is even slower there. One person is doing what the entire team is doing here. I also know that if I am in that big of a hurry, I can down the src rpms and start building... But I won't.
Johnny, Karanbir, Russ, Seth, Dag, Jim, Donavan, and every one else on the team that I most surely missed... You do a bang up job, and our thanks go to your tireless and mostly unpaid contributions to this project! If I have to wait a week or a month for a new release... so be it. The security updates are what is most important, and those come very quickly.
I second that!
I totally agree
I am the sysadmin for a *very* small company which we operate in the free time outside of our normal jobs as addiction medics. Our profit levels are so low that we cannot justify a RH support contract *because* CentOS exists.
Of all the *many* mailing-lists that i am on i find the CentOS (and the linux-poweredge list from Dell) to be the most polite and informative.
If i ever get to deploy my parachute and exit the NHS then i am really looking forward to lurking on the irc chans as well (pesky NHS firewall and aup).
Our production server will be installed into NHS Lothian's network once 5.2 comes out and i am *more* than happy with the "It'll be done when it's done" answer.
Thanks again for all the work that you guys do!
mike
On Thu, 5 Jun 2008, James Bunnell wrote:
On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 09:57 -0500, Johnny Hughes wrote:
James Bunnell wrote:
If this is a problem, I suggest that you find a paid for service contract where you can be rude to the people with whom you interact.
i do pay for rhel. i made the mistake of converting to centos. damage is done. on the next major upgrade, i will return to rhel and will not professionally recommend centos either privately,personally, or in the realm of a business.
Thanks. I personally would not want people moving from RHEL to CentOS if they are happy with RHEL. If your business depends on CentOS, you better make sure RHEL lives as well. Because without RHEL, there is no CentOS.
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 10:35 AM, James Bunnell jbunnell@belencomputers.com wrote:
I was in the #centos-social channel and simply stated that I noticed CentOS 3-4 were getting a lot of updates. I also stated that the CentOS 5 was one kernel behind, as in RHEL it is at -53, the gentlemen then told me that I was wrong and it was at -21. I then asked if there was a way to get a progress report somehow on 5.2, and that 5.2 has already upgraded that kernel. The result was that I was banned for being correct. I dont understand this kind of support.
Actually no. I banned you for 15 minutes because you were being profane, pedantic about verbiage. The user trying to help you had already complained about typos and such, and was using kernel shorthand since the -53.1. is common to the more recent kernels being discussed at the time. I warned you twice to stop being quite so pedantic, kicked you twice (since you were unwilling to take the hint the first time) and finally resorted to the ban when you began to spew insults and profanity. If you want support from folks who will take verbal abuse, buy a RHEL license. Otherwise, play by the channel rules and be nice to others (yes, for those of you who know me, I *can* say that with a straight face most of the time).
Crying about an irc ban on the mailing list is simply a way to have the last word. If you want it, it's yours. The ban was temporary to allow all parties time to cool down, and I'm done with the entire issue. Hopefully you are as well.
On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 10:59 -0400, Jim Perrin wrote:
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 10:35 AM, James Bunnell jbunnell@belencomputers.com wrote:
I was in the #centos-social channel and simply stated that I noticed CentOS 3-4 were getting a lot of updates. I also stated that the CentOS 5 was one kernel behind, as in RHEL it is at -53, the gentlemen then told me that I was wrong and it was at -21. I then asked if there was a way to get a progress report somehow on 5.2, and that 5.2 has already upgraded that kernel. The result was that I was banned for being correct. I dont understand this kind of support.
Actually no. I banned you for 15 minutes because you were being profane, pedantic about verbiage. The user trying to help you had already complained about typos and such, and was using kernel shorthand since the -53.1. is common to the more recent kernels being discussed at the time. I warned you twice to stop being quite so pedantic, kicked you twice (since you were unwilling to take the hint the first time) and finally resorted to the ban when you began to spew insults and profanity. If you want support from folks who will take verbal abuse, buy a RHEL license. Otherwise, play by the channel rules and be nice to others (yes, for those of you who know me, I *can* say that with a straight face most of the time).
Crying about an irc ban on the mailing list is simply a way to have the last word. If you want it, it's yours. The ban was temporary to allow all parties time to cool down, and I'm done with the entire issue. Hopefully you are as well.
that being said, irc is a poor representation of centos, i have enjoyed the mailing list and have mostly lurked here. i think you overreact to simple questions that could be answered very simply with an intelligent updated answer rather that was said and this whole thing would have been avoided. you did not try to help, you simply threw warnings and said nothing.
James Bunnell wrote:
I was in the #centos-social channel and simply stated that I noticed CentOS 3-4 were getting a lot of updates. I also stated that the CentOS 5 was one kernel behind, as in RHEL it is at -53, the gentlemen then told me that I was wrong and it was at -21.
lftp ftp.redhat.com:/pub/redhat/linux/enterprise/5Server/en/os/SRPMS> ls kernel* > kernel.list lftp ftp.redhat.com:/pub/redhat/linux/enterprise/5Server/en/os/SRPMS> exit [angenenr@shutdown ~]$grep 53 kernel.list -rw-rw-r-- 2 ftp ftp 54464006 Feb 12 14:37 kernel-2.6.18-53.1.13.el5.src.rpm -rw-rw-r-- 2 ftp ftp 54492476 Mar 03 09:40 kernel-2.6.18-53.1.14.el5.src.rpm -rw-rw-r-- 2 ftp ftp 54521781 May 04 07:52 kernel-2.6.18-53.1.19.el5.src.rpm -rw-rw-r-- 2 ftp ftp 54540423 May 19 09:58 kernel-2.6.18-53.1.21.el5.src.rpm -rw-rw-r-- 2 ftp ftp 54421174 Nov 28 2007 kernel-2.6.18-53.1.4.el5.src.rpm -rw-rw-r-- 2 ftp ftp 54461630 Jan 18 11:29 kernel-2.6.18-53.1.6.el5.src.rpm -rw-rw-r-- 1 ftp ftp 54386174 Oct 11 2007 kernel-2.6.18-53.el5.src.rpm [angenenr@shutdown ~]$
So which kernel would that -53 be? The one from October 11th, 2007?
I then asked if there was a way to get a progress report somehow on 5.2, and that 5.2 has already upgraded that kernel. The result was that I was banned for being correct.
a) #centos-social is not a support channel, as that channel's topic clearly states.
b) The ban was *not* for you being correct (because you are not, 5.2 will have 2.6.18-92, but for your behaviour over the last days/weeks and your *constantly* asking about progress on 5.2 (and getting the answer everybody getsdoes, see http://planet.centos.org/).
I dont understand this kind of support.
I don't understand why you came here to whine about that.
Ralph
On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 17:00 +0200, Ralph Angenendt wrote:
James Bunnell wrote:
I was in the #centos-social channel and simply stated that I noticed CentOS 3-4 were getting a lot of updates. I also stated that the CentOS 5 was one kernel behind, as in RHEL it is at -53, the gentlemen then told me that I was wrong and it was at -21.
lftp ftp.redhat.com:/pub/redhat/linux/enterprise/5Server/en/os/SRPMS> ls kernel* > kernel.list lftp ftp.redhat.com:/pub/redhat/linux/enterprise/5Server/en/os/SRPMS> exit [angenenr@shutdown ~]$grep 53 kernel.list -rw-rw-r-- 2 ftp ftp 54464006 Feb 12 14:37 kernel-2.6.18-53.1.13.el5.src.rpm -rw-rw-r-- 2 ftp ftp 54492476 Mar 03 09:40 kernel-2.6.18-53.1.14.el5.src.rpm -rw-rw-r-- 2 ftp ftp 54521781 May 04 07:52 kernel-2.6.18-53.1.19.el5.src.rpm -rw-rw-r-- 2 ftp ftp 54540423 May 19 09:58 kernel-2.6.18-53.1.21.el5.src.rpm -rw-rw-r-- 2 ftp ftp 54421174 Nov 28 2007 kernel-2.6.18-53.1.4.el5.src.rpm -rw-rw-r-- 2 ftp ftp 54461630 Jan 18 11:29 kernel-2.6.18-53.1.6.el5.src.rpm -rw-rw-r-- 1 ftp ftp 54386174 Oct 11 2007 kernel-2.6.18-53.el5.src.rpm [angenenr@shutdown ~]$
So which kernel would that -53 be? The one from October 11th, 2007?
look like they are all -53 to me, i dont see the point.
I then asked if there was a way to get a progress report somehow on 5.2, and that 5.2 has already upgraded that kernel. The result was that I was banned for being correct.
a) #centos-social is not a support channel, as that channel's topic clearly states.
b) The ban was *not* for you being correct (because you are not, 5.2 will have 2.6.18-92, but for your behaviour over the last days/weeks and your *constantly* asking about progress on 5.2 (and getting the answer everybody getsdoes, see http://planet.centos.org/).
I dont understand this kind of support.
I don't understand why you came here to whine about that.
weeks,days, ive been quiet. i believe you too have overreacted. its been nearly 2 weeks since any update of progress to 5.2 has been announced. why would that be rude or wrong to ask for? and btw, i am not the only one that has asked for an update. and ive been polite in my initial questions. response determines response.
Ralph _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 17:00 +0100, Anne Wilson wrote:
On Thursday 05 June 2008 16:42:47 James Bunnell wrote:
ts been nearly 2 weeks since any update of progress to 5.2 has been announced.
On May 22 it was estimated that it would take 3 weeks. Did you really need an update on that?
i only asked. an answer such as what was given here earlier would have sufficed. is that so hard?
Anne _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
James Bunnell wrote:
On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 17:00 +0100, Anne Wilson wrote:
On May 22 it was estimated that it would take 3 weeks. Did you really need an update on that?
i only asked. an answer such as what was given here earlier would have sufficed. is that so hard?
But it is the same answer you already had!
Ralph
On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 18:36 +0200, Ralph Angenendt wrote:
James Bunnell wrote:
On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 17:00 +0100, Anne Wilson wrote:
On May 22 it was estimated that it would take 3 weeks. Did you really need an update on that?
i only asked. an answer such as what was given here earlier would have sufficed. is that so hard?
But it is the same answer you already had!
ok, let's look at this differently. if i were looking for a answer to these things from a standpoint of wanting to help, or pointing out something that may be perceived differently somewhere else such as the 'well they are updating 3-4, why not 5'...how is that to be construed? i think that deserves more than an aggressive response such as what happened on irc.
Ralph _______________________________________________ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
On Thu, 5 Jun 2008, James Bunnell wrote:
On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 18:36 +0200, Ralph Angenendt wrote:
James Bunnell wrote:
On Thu, 2008-06-05 at 17:00 +0100, Anne Wilson wrote:
On May 22 it was estimated that it would take 3 weeks. Did you really need an update on that?
i only asked. an answer such as what was given here earlier would have sufficed. is that so hard?
But it is the same answer you already had!
ok, let's look at this differently. if i were looking for a answer to these things from a standpoint of wanting to help, or pointing out something that may be perceived differently somewhere else such as the 'well they are updating 3-4, why not 5'...how is that to be construed? i think that deserves more than an aggressive response such as what happened on irc.
Not for nothin but I thought about 200 messages ago you said you were done?
PLEASE do not answer that. Silence would be the best answer.
Regards,
-
Anne Wilson -
Dag Wieers -
James Bunnell -
Jim Perrin -
Johnny Hughes -
Karanbir Singh -
Martyn Drake -
Michael Simpson -
Ralph Angenendt -
Ray Van Dolson -
Ross S. W. Walker -
Scott Silva -
Tom Diehl -
William L. Maltby