Hi Guys,
there were some great conversations and ideas that came from the Fosdem weekend, over the next few days I'll try and summarise as many as I can and get some conversations started around the ideas.
One thing that came up a few times, and Andreas mentioned as well, was that it might be a good idea to produce a single DVD iso, suitable for use on large dual layer DVD's as they are now starting to become more popular.
Its fairly easy to do, however I would not be all that keen on exporting that via the regular mirrors. Therefore expanding the idea a bit :
- Should we consider doing CD isos as well as dual layer DVD ones ?
- Should we consider only having these two media formats available via torrent ?
Dne 6.2.2012 20:40, Karanbir Singh napsal(a):
Hi Guys,
Its fairly easy to do, however I would not be all that keen on exporting that via the regular mirrors. Therefore expanding the idea a bit :
Should we consider doing CD isos as well as dual layer DVD ones ?
Should we consider only having these two media formats available via
torrent ?
Karanbir, For me these two are ok, and distributed via HTTP. - single large ISO - small netboot ISO I can't remember ISO image burning... Everyone, I can think of, mounts ISOs nowadays. DH
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On 06/02/12 19:57, David Hrbá? wrote:
Dne 6.2.2012 20:40, Karanbir Singh napsal(a): I can't remember ISO image burning... Everyone, I can think of, mounts ISOs nowadays. DH
I must be getting old :-D. I still burn ISO's.
As a user I think the dual layer ISO image is a good idea. But I still feel you should distribute a DVD Image suitable for single layer (4.7GB). I myself do not have any dual layer discs, and I am sure I would not be alone on that matter.
It would be good for those who have the discs for it, and if you still distribute a DVD ISO for those without the discs it would be better. (Everyone happy you could say..)
Just my 2c.
- -- Jake
Hi Jke,
On 02/06/2012 08:17 PM, Jake Shipton wrote:
As a user I think the dual layer ISO image is a good idea. But I still feel you should distribute a DVD Image suitable for single layer (4.7GB). I myself do not have any dual layer discs, and I am sure I would not be alone on that matter.
If we do the large single iso - it would be in addition to the dvd isos we distribute already ( which have a max-size constraint of 4.3GB, so suitable for all DVD formats ); those will not go away.
- KB
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Karanbir Singh mail-lists@karan.org wrote:
As a user I think the dual layer ISO image is a good idea. But I still feel you should distribute a DVD Image suitable for single layer (4.7GB). I myself do not have any dual layer discs, and I am sure I would not be alone on that matter.
If we do the large single iso - it would be in addition to the dvd isos we distribute already ( which have a max-size constraint of 4.3GB, so suitable for all DVD formats ); those will not go away.
Would there be a way for a script to combine the two isos into one with loopback mounts, a copy and rebuild? I'd probably use a complete, single iso as file mapped to the DVD in VM's for booting even if I couldn't burn it. But if you have to make extra effort, I'd really rather have a minimal installer that fits a CD and lists of the package groups that each type of install would include so I could let yum do it after the base install.
Les Mikesell wrote on 02/07/2012 12:07 PM:
Would there be a way for a script to combine the two isos into one with loopback mounts, a copy and rebuild?
http://wiki.centos.org/TipsAndTricks/CDtoDVDMedia
Now tested with 6.2 DVD1/2 for x86_64.
Phil
On Tuesday, February 07, 2012 01:10:48 PM Phil Schaffner wrote:
Les Mikesell wrote on 02/07/2012 12:07 PM:
Would there be a way for a script to combine the two isos into one with loopback mounts, a copy and rebuild?
http://wiki.centos.org/TipsAndTricks/CDtoDVDMedia
Now tested with 6.2 DVD1/2 for x86_64.
And for i386. I haven't had time to install from it yet. Generated the full ISO in about 6 minutes here, both for i386 and x86_64.
With this script in a slightly more conspicuous location, there would be no need to have separate DL ISOs on any mirror, since it is so easy to make it yourself.
With a script that can split six ways from Sunday and do arbitrary sized ISOs, one would only need to distribute the 'common' single-layer DVD sized ISO pair, and the script could generate the ISO sets the user wants.
The only fly in the ointment is that the mkdvdiso.sh script does require anaconda-runtime (on EL5, the script says) or isomd5sum (on EL6). A version that can slice into specified chunks would likely have more requires.
However, Phil, the section that attempts to detect not being an absolute path for the destination ISO is 'broken' here on C6.2 x86_64; if just an ISO name is specified I get an error: ++++++ # mkdvdiso tmpiso test.iso DVD directory is . ISO file is test.iso Destinaton Directory . does not exist ++++++
I know it's actually in the code to print that out, but it's a confusing error. Rather, using the same language about it having to be an absolute path as the error message a few lines later would be clearer.... but that's just my opinion, of course.
Lamar Owen wrote on 02/08/2012 01:16 PM:
And for i386. I haven't had time to install from it yet. Generated the full ISO in about 6 minutes here, both for i386 and x86_64.
With this script in a slightly more conspicuous location, there would be no need to have separate DL ISOs on any mirror, since it is so easy to make it yourself.
With a script that can split six ways from Sunday and do arbitrary sized ISOs, one would only need to distribute the 'common' single-layer DVD sized ISO pair, and the script could generate the ISO sets the user wants.
The only fly in the ointment is that the mkdvdiso.sh script does require anaconda-runtime (on EL5, the script says) or isomd5sum (on EL6). A version that can slice into specified chunks would likely have more requires.
However, Phil, the section that attempts to detect not being an absolute path for the destination ISO is 'broken' here on C6.2 x86_64; if just an ISO name is specified I get an error: ++++++ # mkdvdiso tmpiso test.iso DVD directory is . ISO file is test.iso Destinaton Directory . does not exist ++++++
I know it's actually in the code to print that out, but it's a confusing error. Rather, using the same language about it having to be an absolute path as the error message a few lines later would be clearer.... but that's just my opinion, of course.
That's not a part of the script I've touched, at least as far back as I recall. Had thought about trying to remove the absolute path limitation, but haven't gotten to it. Similar for the temp directory. Patches welcome.
Another welcome patch, perhaps easy for Johnny, KB, Tru, etc., would be to create the .discinfo file on the fly when using a directory tree rather than ISOs.
Phil
On Thursday, February 09, 2012 08:20:04 AM Phil Schaffner wrote:
That's not a part of the script I've touched, at least as far back as I recall. Had thought about trying to remove the absolute path limitation, but haven't gotten to it. Similar for the temp directory. Patches welcome.
:-)
I wonder if Chris K had any idea his quick hack would still be in use after all these years..... I see references in fedora-devel as far back as 2003....
Another welcome patch, perhaps easy for Johnny, KB, Tru, etc., would be to create the .discinfo file on the fly when using a directory tree rather than ISOs.
There are certainly a number of potentially useful enhancements that could be done; the difficulty is making the time to do them once the script does 'just enough' to get the immediate result done.....
Hi,
I thinks it is a nice move. Thumbs up, but we should also keep standard DVD images for leagcy issues. Most of the servers (older) are still equiped with DVDs (or maybe even CD-roms :)) I also do not see any problem providing for both types of images...besides obvious one - more disk space ;)
Regards, Marko
On Mon, 6 Feb 2012, Karanbir Singh wrote:
Hi Guys,
there were some great conversations and ideas that came from the Fosdem weekend, over the next few days I'll try and summarise as many as I can and get some conversations started around the ideas.
One thing that came up a few times, and Andreas mentioned as well, was that it might be a good idea to produce a single DVD iso, suitable for use on large dual layer DVD's as they are now starting to become more popular.
Its fairly easy to do, however I would not be all that keen on exporting that via the regular mirrors. Therefore expanding the idea a bit :
Should we consider doing CD isos as well as dual layer DVD ones ?
Should we consider only having these two media formats available via
torrent ?
Karanbir Singh wrote on 02/06/2012 02:40 PM:
Hi Guys,
there were some great conversations and ideas that came from the Fosdem weekend, over the next few days I'll try and summarise as many as I can and get some conversations started around the ideas.
One thing that came up a few times, and Andreas mentioned as well, was that it might be a good idea to produce a single DVD iso, suitable for use on large dual layer DVD's as they are now starting to become more popular.
A combined DVD can be produced with a slight modification of the script http://wiki.centos.org/TipsAndTricks/CDtoDVDMedia (path for implantisomd5 has changed) so the script and the two single-layer images, along with some directions, would suffice to allow people to download the two DVD ISOs and create a dual-layer. (I successfully made the ISO with 6.2 - have not tested installing yet.)
Its fairly easy to do, however I would not be all that keen on exporting that via the regular mirrors. Therefore expanding the idea a bit :
- Should we consider doing CD isos as well as dual layer DVD ones ?
I'd advocate just continuing with the minimal install CD and installable LiveCD.
- Should we consider only having these two media formats available via
torrent ?
If the script approach is not satisfactory that would be workable.
Phil
On Monday, February 06, 2012 02:40:13 PM Karanbir Singh wrote:
- Should we consider doing CD isos as well as dual layer DVD ones ?
Dual layer single ISO would be nice for a number of reasons, but not so nice for other reasons.
Nice, in that a USB key of 8GB or so could just have the one ISO loaded; Nice, in that all DVD-ROMS are supposed to be able to read dual-layer media; Nice, in that a single DVD can handle things physically; Nice, in that only a single ISO needs to be mounted for virtualization, which can simplify VM guest installs;
Not so nice, in that dual layer rewritables aren't available (to my knowledge at least), and when I do burn a DVD I tend to burn to rewritable media; Not so nice, in that dual layer media is more expensive; Not so nice, in that it takes that much longer to download when you don't need the second DVD.
CD's on the other hand would be nice all around for servers that don't have DVD-ROMS but are still capable of running C6 (I have a few 1U IBM's in that category for which DVD-ROM drives are scarce, and modifying a laptop thin-line DVD-ROM is difficult, since the slot for the drive is thinner than any other thinline drive I've seen
- Should we consider only having these two media formats available via
torrent ?
Whee, I hope not. Torrent is good and all for many things, but there are places where it's not going to work. I'd let mirrors opt-in to CD and DVD-DL images, as long as the master mirror has sufficient drive space.
Or, at one time there was a script out there to build DVD iso's from the CD iso's; if a quick script can build the DL iso from the two existing DVD iso's, or split out to multiple CD isos, and the user can download the two regular DVD isos and run the script/tool (revisor is used by SL for 'sites' and is a pretty good tool for this sort of thing). For that matter, revisor, along with the repos and jigdo files, can handle all of the tasks mentioned quite handily.
On 02/06/2012 07:40 PM, Karanbir Singh wrote:
Should we consider doing CD isos as well as dual layer DVD ones ?
Should we consider only having these two media formats available via
torrent ?
Whenever I need to install CentOS I either download just the first CD ISO or the netinstall ISO. This means the image is small enough to be downloaded even using home broadband for my machines, and then I can get anything else I need using 'yum'. So for people downloading (and concious of bandwidth usage) either the netinstall or CD would be nice.
I have used torrents sometimes in the past but usually find it more convenient and quicker to just download the ISO. However, if you are going to make 8 gigs of data available to download, it might be a good idea to restrict it to torrents because the bandwidth usage will be much more efficient. If many individual users decide to just download the dual layer ISOs using HTTP/FTP, that's a lot of bandwidth wasted.
I don't think the CDs should be torrent-only though, but maybe it's just me.
On 02/07/2012 02:54 PM, Khusro Jaleel wrote:
However, if you are going to make 8 gigs of data available to download, it might be a good idea to restrict it to torrents because the bandwidth usage will be much more efficient.
If someone downloads both DVD ISO's (as now possible), then downloading 1 ISO with same size will not change things much.
Dual Layer DVD can be provided via external mirrors only, several days later, but via torrent at the moment of release.
People downloading DualDVD ISO's will mostly be people having local mirrors. They are disciplined enough to try avoiding mirror overloads (using bittorent, external mirrors, etc.)
On 02/07/2012 01:54 PM, Khusro Jaleel wrote:
I don't think the CDs should be torrent-only though, but maybe it's just me.
we dont have CD images for the distro CentOS-6 ( just the minimal one ); and there has not been a huge uproar about it honestly, just a few people who mentioned it as inconvenient in passing.
On 02/08/2012 11:20 AM, Karanbir Singh wrote:
On 02/07/2012 01:54 PM, Khusro Jaleel wrote:
I don't think the CDs should be torrent-only though, but maybe it's just me.
we dont have CD images for the distro CentOS-6 ( just the minimal one ); and there has not been a huge uproar about it honestly, just a few people who mentioned it as inconvenient in passing.
That was more a response to your question "Should we consider doing CD isos as well?". I think we should, but only because I (and maybe only me) would use it. However if they are not there, I'll just get the DVD ones, it's just slightly less convenient.
*IF* at some point there are CD ISOs, then I don't think they should be torrent-only, that's what I meant.
Karanbir,
As the potential base of machines that might need the CD-ROM-sized ISOs shrinks, how about this as a viable alternative:
Distribute the DVD (single layer, two ISOs), and dual-layer DVD (one ISO) together with a script that would be able to split these into a set of CD-ROM-sized ISOs, and MD5/SHA1 checksums (perhaps based on the result of the same script run by CentOS group).
This would allow downstream mirrors (who might serve a different population of users) to still offer the smaller downloads to their users who do not have DVD-ROM drives, while reducing the need to store all the possible combinations at the main disribution and mirror sites serving the "majority" population.
Cheers!
Simba Engineering
-----Original Message----- From: centos-devel-bounces@centos.org [mailto:centos-devel-bounces@centos.org] On Behalf Of Karanbir Singh Sent: Wednesday, 08 February, 2012 03:21 To: The CentOS developers mailing list. Subject: Re: [CentOS-devel] Dual Layer DVD iso for 6.3 / 5.8
On 02/07/2012 01:54 PM, Khusro Jaleel wrote:
I don't think the CDs should be torrent-only though, but maybe it's just me.
we dont have CD images for the distro CentOS-6 ( just the minimal one ); and there has not been a huge uproar about it honestly, just a few people who mentioned it as inconvenient in passing.
-- Karanbir Singh +44-207-0999389 | http://www.karan.org/ | twitter.com/kbsingh ICQ: 2522219 | Yahoo IM: z00dax | Gtalk: z00dax GnuPG Key : http://www.karan.org/publickey.asc _______________________________________________ CentOS-devel mailing list CentOS-devel@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-devel
On 02/08/2012 07:06 PM, Phoenix, Merka wrote:
Karanbir,
As the potential base of machines that might need the CD-ROM-sized ISOs shrinks, how about this as a viable alternative:
Distribute the DVD (single layer, two ISOs), and dual-layer DVD (one ISO) together with a script that would be able to split these into a set of CD-ROM-sized ISOs, and MD5/SHA1 checksums (perhaps based on the result of the same script run by CentOS group).
This would allow downstream mirrors (who might serve a different population of users) to still offer the smaller downloads to their users who do not have DVD-ROM drives, while reducing the need to store all the possible combinations at the main disribution and mirror sites serving the "majority" population.
No decent sized mirror will spend time to [re]create content that is not distributed by the top level mirror.
Phoenix, Merka wrote on 02/08/2012 12:06 PM:
Distribute the DVD (single layer, two ISOs), and dual-layer DVD (one ISO) together with a script that would be able to split these into a set of CD-ROM-sized ISOs, and MD5/SHA1 checksums (perhaps based on the result of the same script run by CentOS group).
Sounds reasonable, except no compelling need to have the dual-layer ISO, given that it can also be replaced by a script.
Phil
-
David Hrbáč -
Jake Shipton -
Karanbir Singh -
Khusro Jaleel -
Lamar Owen -
Les Mikesell -
Ljubomir Ljubojevic -
Manuel Wolfshant -
Marko Bevc -
Phil Schaffner -
Phoenix, Merka