We wanted to update you on what is happening, largely out of sight to most of the community, on the CentOS Linux 8 front. We have appreciated the patience of the community, but we understand that your patience won’t last forever.
A lot of the work in rebuilding RHEL sources into CentOS Linux is handled by automation scripts. Due to the changes between RHEL 7 and RHEL 8, many of these scripts no longer work, and had to be fixed to reflect the new layout of the buildroot. This work has been largely completed, allowing us to pull the source from Red Hat without a lot of manual work. This, in turn, should make the process of rebuilding RHEL 8.2 go much more smoothly than RHEL 8.0 and 8.1 have done.
Once 8.1 has been released, work will begin on bringing this new codebase, along with CentOS Stream, in to CBS (https://wiki.centos.org/HowTos/CommunityBuildSystem) so that SIGs can build packages for CentOS Linux 8 and CentOS Stream.
We will discuss this, and give updates of progress, on the centos-devel mailing list over the coming weeks. Some of you have observed that the CentOS team tends to prioritize doing the work over talking about it. While that’s not all bad, it does tend to leave most of you in the dark as to what it is that is being worked on, and we’re committed to greater transparency going forward.
Once again, we appreciate your patience as we work through the growing pains of the 8 branch. We hope to share a more detailed (projected) timeline in the days to come, with the caveat that timelines always change as they are being worked.
On 14/01/2020 18:57, Rich Bowen wrote:
Hi Rich,
We wanted to update you on what is happening, largely out of sight to most of the community, on the CentOS Linux 8 front. We have appreciated the patience of the community, but we understand that your patience won’t last forever.
A lot of the work in rebuilding RHEL sources into CentOS Linux is handled by automation scripts. Due to the changes between RHEL 7 and RHEL 8, many of these scripts no longer work, and had to be fixed to reflect the new layout of the buildroot. This work has been largely completed, allowing us to pull the source from Red Hat without a lot of manual work. This, in turn, should make the process of rebuilding RHEL 8.2 go much more smoothly than RHEL 8.0 and 8.1 have done.
Once 8.1 has been released, work will begin on bringing this new codebase, along with CentOS Stream, in to CBS (https://wiki.centos.org/HowTos/CommunityBuildSystem) so that SIGs can build packages for CentOS Linux 8 and CentOS Stream.
Given the time it's taking to get releases out, and the 6 month timescale between RHEL8 point releases, I'm struggling to visualise how this is going to work in practice.
What new features are you planning for CentOS 8.1 Stream and when will the community get to see/test them? Given that RHEL8.1 is now 2.5 months old and RHEL8.2 is due to be released in 3.5 months, I'm expecting a RHEL8.2 beta soon. At that point hasn't the ship already sailed? How are you expecting to get new stuff out to the community to test and feed back on in time for that to feed into the RHEL8.2beta development process in a meaningful way? I'm assuming that the RHEL8.2beta development process is already well underway.
Perhaps I'm just confused as to what the best/fastest route is to feed stuff back into RHEL (and hence CentOS). When we have verified bugs and patches, should we be raising RHEL bugzilla reports with patches and asking Red Hat to fix issues, or should we be submitting patches to CentOS Stream as the upstream (midstream?) of RHEL? The recent high profile make bug/patch springs to mind - we submitted directly to Red Hat as there was no current process to submit to CentOS Stream.
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1774790
Still, the process is frustratingly slow. What we would like is a process to make a commit/pull request to the CentOS Stream git tree and have the CentOS Stream build system rebuild and push the package for testing, in a fast automated fashion. And then hopefully see that fix in the next minor release of RHEL. Or maybe I completely misunderstand how you see the process working?
We will discuss this, and give updates of progress, on the centos-devel mailing list over the coming weeks. Some of you have observed that the CentOS team tends to prioritize doing the work over talking about it. While that’s not all bad, it does tend to leave most of you in the dark as to what it is that is being worked on, and we’re committed to greater transparency going forward.
Once again, we appreciate your patience as we work through the growing pains of the 8 branch. We hope to share a more detailed (projected) timeline in the days to come, with the caveat that timelines always change as they are being worked.
On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 10:13 PM Phil Perry pperry@elrepo.org wrote:
On 14/01/2020 18:57, Rich Bowen wrote:
Hi Rich,
We wanted to update you on what is happening, largely out of sight to most of the community, on the CentOS Linux 8 front. We have appreciated the patience of the community, but we understand that your patience won’t last forever.
A lot of the work in rebuilding RHEL sources into CentOS Linux is handled by automation scripts. Due to the changes between RHEL 7 and RHEL 8, many of these scripts no longer work, and had to be fixed to reflect the new layout of the buildroot. This work has been largely completed, allowing us to pull the source from Red Hat without a lot of manual work. This, in turn, should make the process of rebuilding RHEL 8.2 go much more smoothly than RHEL 8.0 and 8.1 have done.
Once 8.1 has been released, work will begin on bringing this new codebase, along with CentOS Stream, in to CBS (https://wiki.centos.org/HowTos/CommunityBuildSystem) so that SIGs can build packages for CentOS Linux 8 and CentOS Stream.
Given the time it's taking to get releases out, and the 6 month timescale between RHEL8 point releases, I'm struggling to visualise how this is going to work in practice.
What new features are you planning for CentOS 8.1 Stream and when will the community get to see/test them? Given that RHEL8.1 is now 2.5 months old and RHEL8.2 is due to be released in 3.5 months, I'm expecting a RHEL8.2 beta soon. At that point hasn't the ship already sailed? How are you expecting to get new stuff out to the community to test and feed back on in time for that to feed into the RHEL8.2beta development process in a meaningful way? I'm assuming that the RHEL8.2beta development process is already well underway.
Perhaps I'm just confused as to what the best/fastest route is to feed stuff back into RHEL (and hence CentOS). When we have verified bugs and patches, should we be raising RHEL bugzilla reports with patches and asking Red Hat to fix issues, or should we be submitting patches to CentOS Stream as the upstream (midstream?) of RHEL? The recent high profile make bug/patch springs to mind - we submitted directly to Red Hat as there was no current process to submit to CentOS Stream.
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1774790
Still, the process is frustratingly slow. What we would like is a process to make a commit/pull request to the CentOS Stream git tree and have the CentOS Stream build system rebuild and push the package for testing, in a fast automated fashion. And then hopefully see that fix in the next minor release of RHEL. Or maybe I completely misunderstand how you see the process working?
That seems about right. That's the sort of workflow we'd like to implement.
Unlike other parts of the industry, here in true open source fashion we do it all in the open. Announce intent, then implement ... so yes there is some lag in getting this working. We're assembling the teams to help build that workflow now.
RHEL is a product that has thousands of upstream projects. This is especially true of the minor versions, where we pull in backports and rebases from those projects directly. As a result, for better or worse, RHEL internally at Red Hat has myriad workflows to bring in changes from upstream.
The work of CentOS to rebuild RHEL is simple compared to building the contribution workflow to tie to bring things into RHEL. Nevertheless we're pursuing what you describe. Sorry that it seems frustratingly slow.
Cheers,
Stef
On 1/14/20 4:13 PM, Phil Perry wrote:
On 14/01/2020 18:57, Rich Bowen wrote:
Hi Rich,
...
Given the time it's taking to get releases out, and the 6 month timescale between RHEL8 point releases, I'm struggling to visualise how this is going to work in practice.
What new features are you planning for CentOS 8.1 Stream and when will the community get to see/test them? Given that RHEL8.1 is now 2.5 months old and RHEL8.2 is due to be released in 3.5 months, I'm expecting a RHEL8.2 beta soon. At that point hasn't the ship already sailed? How are you expecting to get new stuff out to the community to test and feed back on in time for that to feed into the RHEL8.2beta development process in a meaningful way? I'm assuming that the RHEL8.2beta development process is already well underway.
Perhaps I'm just confused as to what the best/fastest route is to feed stuff back into RHEL (and hence CentOS). When we have verified bugs and patches, should we be raising RHEL bugzilla reports with patches and asking Red Hat to fix issues, or should we be submitting patches to CentOS Stream as the upstream (midstream?) of RHEL? The recent high profile make bug/patch springs to mind - we submitted directly to Red Hat as there was no current process to submit to CentOS Stream.
Right. That's the process that we are currently working on, and we hope to have more detail on timelines in the coming days and weeks. This is a work in process, and we don't have all of the answers yet.
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1774790
Still, the process is frustratingly slow. What we would like is a process to make a commit/pull request to the CentOS Stream git tree and have the CentOS Stream build system rebuild and push the package for testing, in a fast automated fashion. And then hopefully see that fix in the next minor release of RHEL. Or maybe I completely misunderstand how you see the process working?
Right. That's how we see the process working. But, as we were trying to communicate with this message, we're not there yet. It's a big task to get from the workflow we had in the 7.x days to what we hope to have with CentOS Stream.
And, rather than announcing a fait accompli, we're trying, as we hope you've seen elsewhere, to be more transparent about what we're working on, and where we're headed. But that necessarily means that we're not there yet. And, a lot of that work is necessarily "behind the scenes".
We're working on both the contribution process, as well as the process/tooling for pushing content to the Stream repositories in an automated fashion. And we're trying to bring that process into the light, so that you can know where things stand.
Rich,
Thanks for all your efforts in this area, it’s really appreciated and we’re happy to help in the next stages to progress further.
Tim
On 15 Jan 2020, at 15:14, Rich Bowen rbowen@redhat.com wrote:
On 1/14/20 4:13 PM, Phil Perry wrote:
On 14/01/2020 18:57, Rich Bowen wrote: Hi Rich,
...
Given the time it's taking to get releases out, and the 6 month timescale between RHEL8 point releases, I'm struggling to visualise how this is going to work in practice. What new features are you planning for CentOS 8.1 Stream and when will the community get to see/test them? Given that RHEL8.1 is now 2.5 months old and RHEL8.2 is due to be released in 3.5 months, I'm expecting a RHEL8.2 beta soon. At that point hasn't the ship already sailed? How are you expecting to get new stuff out to the community to test and feed back on in time for that to feed into the RHEL8.2beta development process in a meaningful way? I'm assuming that the RHEL8.2beta development process is already well underway. Perhaps I'm just confused as to what the best/fastest route is to feed stuff back into RHEL (and hence CentOS). When we have verified bugs and patches, should we be raising RHEL bugzilla reports with patches and asking Red Hat to fix issues, or should we be submitting patches to CentOS Stream as the upstream (midstream?) of RHEL? The recent high profile make bug/patch springs to mind - we submitted directly to Red Hat as there was no current process to submit to CentOS Stream.
Right. That's the process that we are currently working on, and we hope to have more detail on timelines in the coming days and weeks. This is a work in process, and we don't have all of the answers yet.
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1774790 Still, the process is frustratingly slow. What we would like is a process to make a commit/pull request to the CentOS Stream git tree and have the CentOS Stream build system rebuild and push the package for testing, in a fast automated fashion. And then hopefully see that fix in the next minor release of RHEL. Or maybe I completely misunderstand how you see the process working?
Right. That's how we see the process working. But, as we were trying to communicate with this message, we're not there yet. It's a big task to get from the workflow we had in the 7.x days to what we hope to have with CentOS Stream.
And, rather than announcing a fait accompli, we're trying, as we hope you've seen elsewhere, to be more transparent about what we're working on, and where we're headed. But that necessarily means that we're not there yet. And, a lot of that work is necessarily "behind the scenes".
We're working on both the contribution process, as well as the process/tooling for pushing content to the Stream repositories in an automated fashion. And we're trying to bring that process into the light, so that you can know where things stand.
-- Rich Bowen - rbowen@redhat.com @CentOSProject // @rbowen 859 351 9166
CentOS-devel mailing list CentOS-devel@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-devel
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Tim Bell