Hi list!
Since the Alternative Desktop SIG didn't happen, we thought we would make a more focused effort and improve the Xfce desktop environment experience on CentOS. That might end up being a dedicated CentOS SIG, or just a couple of improvements to the existing packages from EPEL.
Once upon a time, or more precisely: back in the CentOS 5.0 days, Xfce 4.4 was available in Extras and it was a pretty simple install that just worked "out of the box". Now, there's the newer versions available via EPEL - but the experience is nowhere near painless...
Going to try to meet up with other interested parties during FOSDEM, to see if we can't improve upon that and at least fix the low hanging issues. And get some better Xfce testing and feedback going, as well. A more long-term goal is make it an alternative to GNOME (Workstation).
I've rounded up some of the issues, that currently exist:
* The theme and icons are wrong, either missing or just ugly * The background image is wrong, ending up with a single color * X11 and Fonts are missing, so just adding the group doesn't work * Some bugs need backporting or fixing, like in Terminal or Xfwm.
See http://afb.users.sourceforge.net/xfce/centos/centos-xfce.html
Right now, one starts with a Minimal (or Server) install of CentOS. Then adds Base, X11 (including fonts), and finally Xfce (from EPEL). Once the aforementioned problems are taken care of, that should be it. Eventually, it might even end up being a "spin" or available image ?
As mentioned earlier, here are the applicable versions of each:
* CentOS 5 - Xfce 4.4 (in CentOS Extras) * CentOS 5 - Xfce 4.6 (based on Fedora 6) * CentOS 6 - Xfce 4.8 (based on Fedora 12) * CentOS 7 - Xfce 4.10 (based on Fedora 18)
To replace GNOME PackageKit there's the Yum Extender, and to replace GDM there's LightDM (more work is needed, to make a CentOS-6 version). The GNOME icons and GNOME themes will probably "work" to start with, but one can probably improve upon that as well (as a lower priority).
Something like http://afb.users.sourceforge.net/xfce/xfce-brave.png
If you are interested in helping out with testing, packaging or developing (backporting, fixing the upstream issues, and so on) then please say so. I'll try to have some more detailed lists and updated packages with me, for the FOSDEM meetup in the weekend...
* http://wiki.centos.org/Events/Fosdem2015
--anders
On 27 January 2015 at 15:45, Anders F Björklund afb@users.sourceforge.net wrote:
Hi list!
Since the Alternative Desktop SIG didn't happen, we thought we would make a more focused effort and improve the Xfce desktop environment experience on CentOS. That might end up being a dedicated CentOS SIG, or just a couple of improvements to the existing packages from EPEL.
Once upon a time, or more precisely: back in the CentOS 5.0 days, Xfce 4.4 was available in Extras and it was a pretty simple install that just worked "out of the box". Now, there's the newer versions available via EPEL - but the experience is nowhere near painless...
Going to try to meet up with other interested parties during FOSDEM, to see if we can't improve upon that and at least fix the low hanging issues. And get some better Xfce testing and feedback going, as well. A more long-term goal is make it an alternative to GNOME (Workstation).
I've rounded up some of the issues, that currently exist:
- The theme and icons are wrong, either missing or just ugly
I don't see that.. but without knowing exactly what that means to you it could be I am just seeing stuff that works for me.
- The background image is wrong, ending up with a single color
- X11 and Fonts are missing, so just adding the group doesn't work
- Some bugs need backporting or fixing, like in Terminal or Xfwm.
See http://afb.users.sourceforge.net/xfce/centos/centos-xfce.html
Right now, one starts with a Minimal (or Server) install of CentOS. Then adds Base, X11 (including fonts), and finally Xfce (from EPEL). Once the aforementioned problems are taken care of, that should be it. Eventually, it might even end up being a "spin" or available image ?
As mentioned earlier, here are the applicable versions of each:
- CentOS 5 - Xfce 4.4 (in CentOS Extras)
- CentOS 5 - Xfce 4.6 (based on Fedora 6)
- CentOS 6 - Xfce 4.8 (based on Fedora 12)
- CentOS 7 - Xfce 4.10 (based on Fedora 18)
To replace GNOME PackageKit there's the Yum Extender, and to replace GDM there's LightDM (more work is needed, to make a CentOS-6 version). The GNOME icons and GNOME themes will probably "work" to start with, but one can probably improve upon that as well (as a lower priority).
Something like http://afb.users.sourceforge.net/xfce/xfce-brave.png
I am interested in helping. I had lightdm in CentOS-6.. I will have to see if I can find the RPM I used for it.
If you are interested in helping out with testing, packaging or developing (backporting, fixing the upstream issues, and so on) then please say so. I'll try to have some more detailed lists and updated packages with me, for the FOSDEM meetup in the weekend...
--anders
CentOS-devel mailing list CentOS-devel@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-devel
Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
Going to try to meet up with other interested parties during FOSDEM, to see if we can't improve upon that and at least fix the low hanging issues. And get some better Xfce testing and feedback going, as well. A more long-term goal is make it an alternative to GNOME (Workstation).
I've rounded up some of the issues, that currently exist:
- The theme and icons are wrong, either missing or just ugly
I don't see that.. but without knowing exactly what that means to you it could be I am just seeing stuff that works for me.
Well, it uses the "Fedora" theme. Hard to see how that would work ? The rest are mostly missing dependencies, or paths that don't exist.
I am interested in helping. I had lightdm in CentOS-6.. I will have to see if I can find the RPM I used for it.
Great! I did a quick proof-of-concept of LightDM 1.2 (from fc16), the same version as is being used in Ubuntu 12.04 LTS, and it's OK:
http://afb.users.sourceforge.net/xfce/lightdm-centos6.png
But will make all the specs and patches (SRPMS) available, soon. Just trying to wrap my head around the CBS and COPR and what not.
Note that most of the package development will take place in EPEL. Will of course work closely with the Xfce SIG, and the EPEL SIG...
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Xfce
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EPEL_SIG
There's also some nice things to be learned from the LXDE SIG, and their approach to testing, plus branding and documenting ?
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LXDE_SIG
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/LXDE#Test_Plan
--anders
On 28/01/15 20:47, Anders F Björklund wrote:
I am interested in helping. I had lightdm in CentOS-6.. I will have to see if I can find the RPM I used for it.
Great! I did a quick proof-of-concept of LightDM 1.2 (from fc16), the same version as is being used in Ubuntu 12.04 LTS, and it's OK:
FYI, EPEL7 already has lightdm 1.6.3 but maybe I'm missing the point...
T
Trevor Hemsley wrote:
I am interested in helping. I had lightdm in CentOS-6.. I will have to see if I can find the RPM I used for it.
Great! I did a quick proof-of-concept of LightDM 1.2 (from fc16), the same version as is being used in Ubuntu 12.04 LTS, and it's OK:
FYI, EPEL7 already has lightdm 1.6.3 but maybe I'm missing the point...
Yeah, it looks nicer* but might end up being more trouble backporting ? And since most other things in RHEL 6 now use fc16, it sounded right.
* http://afb.users.sourceforge.net/xfce/lightdm-centos7.png
For CentOS-5, it's probably alright to just use GDM. It wasn't as horrible back then, or otherwise one could probably use XDM or WDM.
--anders
On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 5:45 PM, Anders F Björklund afb@users.sourceforge.net wrote:
Hi list!
Since the Alternative Desktop SIG didn't happen, we thought we would make a more focused effort and improve the Xfce desktop environment experience on CentOS. That might end up being a dedicated CentOS SIG, or just a couple of improvements to the existing packages from EPEL.
Once upon a time, or more precisely: back in the CentOS 5.0 days, Xfce 4.4 was available in Extras and it was a pretty simple install that just worked "out of the box". Now, there's the newer versions available via EPEL - but the experience is nowhere near painless...
I still bundle vtwm build tools over at https://github.com/nkadel/vtwm-5.5.x-srpm for RHEL based systems. It's much lighter even than XFCE, and stable as granite, and has a *much, much smaller* dependency tree than most modern desktop environments. Much of the pain these days is unweaving all the Gnome-ification from the xinitrc and similar tools.
Going to try to meet up with other interested parties during FOSDEM, to see if we can't improve upon that and at least fix the low hanging issues. And get some better Xfce testing and feedback going, as well. A more long-term goal is make it an alternative to GNOME (Workstation).
I've rounded up some of the issues, that currently exist:
- The theme and icons are wrong, either missing or just ugly
- The background image is wrong, ending up with a single color
- X11 and Fonts are missing, so just adding the group doesn't work
- Some bugs need backporting or fixing, like in Terminal or Xfwm.
See http://afb.users.sourceforge.net/xfce/centos/centos-xfce.html
Right now, one starts with a Minimal (or Server) install of CentOS. Then adds Base, X11 (including fonts), and finally Xfce (from EPEL). Once the aforementioned problems are taken care of, that should be it. Eventually, it might even end up being a "spin" or available image ?
As mentioned earlier, here are the applicable versions of each:
- CentOS 5 - Xfce 4.4 (in CentOS Extras)
- CentOS 5 - Xfce 4.6 (based on Fedora 6)
- CentOS 6 - Xfce 4.8 (based on Fedora 12)
- CentOS 7 - Xfce 4.10 (based on Fedora 18)
To replace GNOME PackageKit there's the Yum Extender, and to replace GDM there's LightDM (more work is needed, to make a CentOS-6 version). The GNOME icons and GNOME themes will probably "work" to start with, but one can probably improve upon that as well (as a lower priority).
Something like http://afb.users.sourceforge.net/xfce/xfce-brave.png
If you are interested in helping out with testing, packaging or developing (backporting, fixing the upstream issues, and so on) then please say so. I'll try to have some more detailed lists and updated packages with me, for the FOSDEM meetup in the weekend...
--anders
CentOS-devel mailing list CentOS-devel@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-devel
Nico Kadel-Garcia wrote:
Since the Alternative Desktop SIG didn't happen, we thought we would make a more focused effort and improve the Xfce desktop environment experience on CentOS. That might end up being a dedicated CentOS SIG, or just a couple of improvements to the existing packages from EPEL.
Once upon a time, or more precisely: back in the CentOS 5.0 days, Xfce 4.4 was available in Extras and it was a pretty simple install that just worked "out of the box". Now, there's the newer versions available via EPEL - but the experience is nowhere near painless...
I still bundle vtwm build tools over at https://github.com/nkadel/vtwm-5.5.x-srpm for RHEL based systems. It's much lighter even than XFCE, and stable as granite, and has a *much, much smaller* dependency tree than most modern desktop environments.
I think we touched upon this briefly last time, there is nothing wrong with running with "just" a window manager - but some people still want a full desktop (especially if coming from some other operating system). And besides GNOME and KDE, I think that Xfce is a great alternative...
I had something based on IceWM, but it was mostly for older machines. It had a reasonably functioning desktop, with the Xfe file manager. A more recent alternative is LXDE, which I don't like much myself - but LXQt looks promising - once gtk2 finally goes out of fashion...
The version available in Fedora 21 is much too unstable yet, though. And using Qt5 (soon: only), means it is not really suitable for CentOS ?
So maybe for CentOS 8 there will be more alternatives (than Xfce 4.12), but for CentOS 5-7 there's not too many good alternative desktops around.
Much of the pain these days is unweaving all the Gnome-ification from the xinitrc and similar tools.
Common enemies :-)
The tight coupling between GNOME 3 and GTK+ 3 is rather troubling... It will probably end up being a big problem, but only after Xfce 4.12:
https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.12/roadmap/gtk3
As mentioned above, some find it easier to port from GTK+ (2) to Qt, rather than using GTK3. And besides, there's GNOME3 for it already ?
Probably not an issue until RHEL 9, or something.
Note that in recent Fedora product split, anything not using GNOME 3 (a.k.a. Workstation) will by definition be using the Server variant:
https://www.happyassassin.net/2014/12/10/fedora-21-greatest-hits-non-server-... https://fedoraserver-wgblog.rhcloud.com/graphical-desktop-environments-on-fe...
Our own main use case is as a Linux Terminal Server.
A personal use case is running in a Virtual Machine.
--anders
Since the Alternative Desktop SIG didn't happen, we thought we would make a more focused effort and improve the Xfce desktop environment experience on CentOS. That might end up being a dedicated CentOS SIG, or just a couple of improvements to the existing packages from EPEL.
Once upon a time, or more precisely: back in the CentOS 5.0 days, Xfce 4.4 was available in Extras and it was a pretty simple install that just worked "out of the box". Now, there's the newer versions available via EPEL - but the experience is nowhere near painless...
Apparently there is no need for such a SIG, since Fedora already has the Xfce and EPEL groups at this time and there is no need to recreate the packages somewhere else (that already exist in Fedora and EPEL). So the remaining issues to be improved upon, should go there instead.
Right now most of the development happens in a COPR, and there's no official testing process which means it's up to each user to test it. See for instance https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1144025 But I haven't filed bugs/paperwork for the issues I mentioned earlier.
Going to try to meet up with other interested parties during FOSDEM, to see if we can't improve upon that and at least fix the low hanging issues. And get some better Xfce testing and feedback going, as well. A more long-term goal is make it an alternative to GNOME (Workstation).
If you are interested in helping out with testing, packaging or developing (backporting, fixing the upstream issues, and so on) then please say so. I'll try to have some more detailed lists and updated packages with me, for the FOSDEM meetup in the weekend...
We will continue with our work, and contribute patches to the upstreams. This includes LightDM for the display manager, using Clearlooks/Adwaita theme for GTK+ and GNOME icon theme and GNOME background (default.jpg) - instead of the current Xfce (old, deprecated) or Fedora themes used now.
Once it is done, and if there is enough interest, it would be possible for CentOS to work with EPEL in providing a "spin" with Xfce enabled... Until that time has come, the user will have to continue to do a Base installation (with X11) and then add the Xfce yum group from EPEL to it.
So there won't be any "Xfce for CentOS group". Back to lurking mode. :-) Hi to everyone I met at FOSDEM, too bad I missed the meeting and dinner.
--anders
On 02/01/2015 04:23 PM, Anders F Björklund wrote:
Since the Alternative Desktop SIG didn't happen, we thought we would make a more focused effort and improve the Xfce desktop environment experience on CentOS. That might end up being a dedicated CentOS SIG, or just a couple of improvements to the existing packages from EPEL.
Once upon a time, or more precisely: back in the CentOS 5.0 days, Xfce 4.4 was available in Extras and it was a pretty simple install that just worked "out of the box". Now, there's the newer versions available via EPEL - but the experience is nowhere near painless...
Apparently there is no need for such a SIG, since Fedora already has the Xfce and EPEL groups at this time and there is no need to recreate the packages somewhere else (that already exist in Fedora and EPEL). So the remaining issues to be improved upon, should go there instead.
Right now most of the development happens in a COPR, and there's no official testing process which means it's up to each user to test it. See for instance https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1144025 But I haven't filed bugs/paperwork for the issues I mentioned earlier.
Going to try to meet up with other interested parties during FOSDEM, to see if we can't improve upon that and at least fix the low hanging issues. And get some better Xfce testing and feedback going, as well. A more long-term goal is make it an alternative to GNOME (Workstation).
If you are interested in helping out with testing, packaging or developing (backporting, fixing the upstream issues, and so on) then please say so. I'll try to have some more detailed lists and updated packages with me, for the FOSDEM meetup in the weekend...
We will continue with our work, and contribute patches to the upstreams. This includes LightDM for the display manager, using Clearlooks/Adwaita theme for GTK+ and GNOME icon theme and GNOME background (default.jpg) - instead of the current Xfce (old, deprecated) or Fedora themes used now.
Once it is done, and if there is enough interest, it would be possible for CentOS to work with EPEL in providing a "spin" with Xfce enabled... Until that time has come, the user will have to continue to do a Base installation (with X11) and then add the Xfce yum group from EPEL to it.
So there won't be any "Xfce for CentOS group". Back to lurking mode. :-) Hi to everyone I met at FOSDEM, too bad I missed the meeting and dinner.
I am all for this effort .. but who is going to monitor the upstream and back port security issues and the rest.
Just blindly compiling old Fedora RPMs is not going to be helpful if it is insecure.
On 2 February 2015 at 06:07, Johnny Hughes johnny@centos.org wrote:
On 02/01/2015 04:23 PM, Anders F Björklund wrote:
Since the Alternative Desktop SIG didn't happen, we thought we would make a more focused effort and improve the Xfce desktop environment experience on CentOS. That might end up being a dedicated CentOS SIG, or just a couple of improvements to the existing packages from EPEL.
Once upon a time, or more precisely: back in the CentOS 5.0 days, Xfce 4.4 was available in Extras and it was a pretty simple install that just worked "out of the box". Now, there's the newer versions available via EPEL - but the experience is nowhere near painless...
Apparently there is no need for such a SIG, since Fedora already has the Xfce and EPEL groups at this time and there is no need to recreate the packages somewhere else (that already exist in Fedora and EPEL). So the remaining issues to be improved upon, should go there instead.
Right now most of the development happens in a COPR, and there's no official testing process which means it's up to each user to test it. See for instance https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1144025 But I haven't filed bugs/paperwork for the issues I mentioned earlier.
Going to try to meet up with other interested parties during FOSDEM, to see if we can't improve upon that and at least fix the low hanging issues. And get some better Xfce testing and feedback going, as well. A more long-term goal is make it an alternative to GNOME (Workstation).
If you are interested in helping out with testing, packaging or developing (backporting, fixing the upstream issues, and so on) then please say so. I'll try to have some more detailed lists and updated packages with me, for the FOSDEM meetup in the weekend...
We will continue with our work, and contribute patches to the upstreams. This includes LightDM for the display manager, using Clearlooks/Adwaita theme for GTK+ and GNOME icon theme and GNOME background (default.jpg) - instead of the current Xfce (old, deprecated) or Fedora themes used now.
Once it is done, and if there is enough interest, it would be possible for CentOS to work with EPEL in providing a "spin" with Xfce enabled... Until that time has come, the user will have to continue to do a Base installation (with X11) and then add the Xfce yum group from EPEL to it.
So there won't be any "Xfce for CentOS group". Back to lurking mode. :-) Hi to everyone I met at FOSDEM, too bad I missed the meeting and dinner.
I am all for this effort .. but who is going to monitor the upstream and back port security issues and the rest.
Just blindly compiling old Fedora RPMs is not going to be helpful if it is insecure.
The Fedora group watches upstream so I would say that combining there would be the best method. If someone already has a copr for XFCE for EL5,6,7 that is cool but if not I can set one up and if people feed me the fixes needed I can get a unified updated version for those releases.
CentOS-devel mailing list CentOS-devel@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-devel
Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
On 2 February 2015 at 06:07, Johnny Hughes johnny@centos.org wrote:
On 02/01/2015 04:23 PM, Anders F Björklund wrote:
If you are interested in helping out with testing, packaging or developing (backporting, fixing the upstream issues, and so on) then please say so. I'll try to have some more detailed lists and updated packages with me, for the FOSDEM meetup in the weekend...
We will continue with our work, and contribute patches to the upstreams. This includes LightDM for the display manager, using Clearlooks/Adwaita theme for GTK+ and GNOME icon theme and GNOME background (default.jpg) - instead of the current Xfce (old, deprecated) or Fedora themes used now.
Once it is done, and if there is enough interest, it would be possible for CentOS to work with EPEL in providing a "spin" with Xfce enabled... Until that time has come, the user will have to continue to do a Base installation (with X11) and then add the Xfce yum group from EPEL to it.
So there won't be any "Xfce for CentOS group". Back to lurking mode. :-) Hi to everyone I met at FOSDEM, too bad I missed the meeting and dinner.
I am all for this effort .. but who is going to monitor the upstream and back port security issues and the rest.
Just blindly compiling old Fedora RPMs is not going to be helpful if it is insecure.
The Fedora group watches upstream so I would say that combining there would be the best method. If someone already has a copr for XFCE for EL5,6,7 that is cool but if not I can set one up and if people feed me the fixes needed I can get a unified updated version for those releases.
Well, each track really follows an upstream release and it's within the normal operation of Fedora EPEL to keep maintaining included packages. Support for EL5 is a bit questionable, but then again it's nearing the end of the life cycle anyway so I don't think that is a major concern ?
Possibly Xfce 4.4 should be removed from CentOS Extras, if unmaintained. i.e. they get replaced by Xfce 4.6 from EPEL5 anyway, if it is enabled. (actually something of a problem, since there are no such comps in EPEL5 - you get yum groups from Xfce 4.4, but rpm packages from Xfce 4.6...)
AFAIK the mentioned COPR´s serves as a test bed for updates going into main distribution, and most of it is now available (didn't double-check) At the moment Xfce SIG is more concerned about the 4.11 / 4.12 release, but I don't think that is going to affect EPEL releases (until later) ?
http://nonamedotclinux.blogspot.com/2014/02/xfce-411-development-version-rep...
http://nonamedotclinux.blogspot.com/2014/03/xfce-410-on-epel-7.html http://nonamedotclinux.blogspot.com/2014/09/second-xfce-410-plugins-copr-rep...
But of course there are some challenges, I only mentioned some of the simpler branding issues but upstream Xfce does have a few other things needing the help of developers and EPEL has some unique issues too... There's a long list at https://www.bountysource.com/teams/xfce/issues
But all of this is going to Fedora, rather than CentOS, following the rules in https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EPEL/GuidelinesAndPolicies I have mostly been working in my own git repositories and mock builds so it needs the proper bugs filed and the proper git patches prepared.
And that takes a lot of time and is rather scary, at least to me... :-) My main interest is fixing the bugs and ugly, so users stop complaining. Kojis and COPRs and SIGs, oh my! Maybe I can make a better business case for it at work, get some colleagues to help me out getting it upstream.
--anders
-
Anders F Björklund -
Johnny Hughes -
Nico Kadel-Garcia -
Stephen John Smoogen -
Trevor Hemsley