per http://wiki.centos.org/Manuals/ReleaseNotes/CentOSMinimalCD6.3
<quote> The aim of this disk is to install a CentOS 6.3 system which has a minimum of packages needed to have a functional system, with no compromise regarding security and fully network and yum aware </quote>
Which is quite funny since vconfig didn't get included which is WAY more common and important than FCoE and some other bits...
Can someone please update the package list?
Hi,
On 08/17/2012 10:09 AM, Matthew Patton wrote:
per http://wiki.centos.org/Manuals/ReleaseNotes/CentOSMinimalCD6.3
<quote> The aim of this disk is to install a CentOS 6.3 system which has a minimum of packages needed to have a functional system, with no compromise regarding security and fully network and yum aware </quote>
Which is quite funny since vconfig didn't get included which is WAY more common and important than FCoE and some other bits...
you seem to be confused between block device management and network layer management. They are not really inter replaceable.
Can someone please update the package list?
afaict, vconfig was included in the past due to the fake dep that dracut had on vconfig ( although it wasent doing anything with it ); since that bug got fixed vconfig seems to have been dropped.
If you want to see it added in, I am sure it can be - there is plenty of disk space left still on the minimal iso. Go ahead and open a report for this and tag it 6.4-QA
Thanks
On 08/17/2012 12:28 PM, Karanbir Singh wrote:
afaict, vconfig was included in the past due to the fake dep that dracut had on vconfig ( although it wasent doing anything with it ); since that bug got fixed vconfig seems to have been dropped.
If you want to see it added in, I am sure it can be - there is plenty of disk space left still on the minimal iso. Go ahead and open a report for this and tag it 6.4-QA
As I have said before, there is no need for it:
[wolfy@wolfy ~]$ grep vconfig /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/*
[wolfy@wolfy ~]$ grep vlan /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/* /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifdown-eth: || echo ${DEVICE} | LANG=C egrep -q 'vlan[0-9][0-9]?[0-9]?[0-9]?' ; then /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifdown-eth: [ -f /proc/net/vlan/${DEVICE} ] && { /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifdown-eth: ip link delete ${DEVICE} type vlan /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifup: MATCH='^vlan[0-9]{1,4}?' /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifup: VID=$(echo "${DEVICE}" | LC_ALL=C sed 's/^vlan0*//') /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifup: # PHYSDEV should be set in ifcfg-vlan* file /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifup: if [ ! -d /proc/net/vlan ]; then /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifup: if [ ! -f /proc/net/vlan/${DEVICE} ]; then /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifup: ip link add dev ${DEVICE} link ${PHYSDEV} type vlan id ${VID} ${FLAG_REORDER_HDR} || { /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifup: $"ERROR: could not add vlan ${VID} as ${DEVICE} on dev ${PHYSDEV}" &)& /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ifup: net_log $"ERROR: could not add vlan ${VID} as ${DEVICE} on dev ${PHYSDEV}"
On Fri, 17 Aug 2012 07:37:25 -0400, Manuel Wolfshant wolfy@nobugconsulting.ro wrote:
If you want to see it added in, I am sure it can be - there is plenty of disk space left still on the minimal iso. Go ahead and open a report for this and tag it 6.4-QA
As I have said before, there is no need for it:
ok, fair enough. But I've *NEVER* used the "ip add dev" command syntax. And I would hazard pretty much nobody else has either.
There are a skillion shell scripts for KVM/QEMU, Xen, embedded firewalls, etc. that use 'vconfig' because that's how it's been done for ages. Sure, we'd like everybody to go back and rewrite their scripts but I don't see that happening any time soon.
On 08/17/2012 04:03 PM, Matthew Patton wrote:
On Fri, 17 Aug 2012 07:37:25 -0400, Manuel Wolfshant wolfy@nobugconsulting.ro wrote:
If you want to see it added in, I am sure it can be - there is plenty of disk space left still on the minimal iso. Go ahead and open a report for this and tag it 6.4-QA
As I have said before, there is no need for it:
ok, fair enough. But I've *NEVER* used the "ip add dev" command syntax. And I would hazard pretty much nobody else has either.
I did use it for several years. I learned about its vlan capabilities only a couple of months ago though.
There are a skillion shell scripts for KVM/QEMU, Xen, embedded firewalls, etc. that use 'vconfig' because that's how it's been done for ages.
I doubt that those people use the minimal.iso. I for one would use (actually I DO use ) a pxe server with kickstart files adjusted as needed. But that's just me. And if they do use the minimal.iso, I bet that they have to add another package or two in order to fulfil the purpose of the said server[s]. By itself a minimal install does not do much except routing. Adding another package when needed is not that hard, is it ?
Sure, we'd like everybody to go back and rewrite their scripts but I don't see that happening any time soon.
I see no reason to have people rewrite their scripts and I have no intent to enforce that on anyone. The only question I ask is "what did they do before the summer of 2011 when minimal.iso was launched " ?
On a more personal note, so far only two persons (that I know of ) asked for vconfig to be put back. You over here and another person during a casual talk in #centos-social ( and that person was happy to learn that ip does that job and switched to using it )
----- Original Message ----- | On 08/17/2012 04:03 PM, Matthew Patton wrote: | > On Fri, 17 Aug 2012 07:37:25 -0400, Manuel Wolfshant | > wolfy@nobugconsulting.ro wrote: | > | >>> If you want to see it added in, I am sure it can be - there is | >>> plenty of | >>> disk space left still on the minimal iso. Go ahead and open a | >>> report for | >>> this and tag it 6.4-QA | >> As I have said before, there is no need for it: | > ok, fair enough. But I've *NEVER* used the "ip add dev" command | > syntax. | > And I would hazard pretty much nobody else has either. | I did use it for several years. I learned about its vlan capabilities | only a couple of months ago though.
Please don't hazard such a guess. There are many of us that stay on top of the current ways of managing our systems and there are many that do not. I've been using ip add dev for ages.
| > There are a skillion shell scripts for KVM/QEMU, Xen, embedded | > firewalls, | > etc. that use 'vconfig' because that's how it's been done for ages. | | I doubt that those people use the minimal.iso. I for one would use | (actually I DO use ) a pxe server with kickstart files adjusted as | needed. But that's just me. And if they do use the minimal.iso, I bet | that they have to add another package or two in order to fulfil the | purpose of the said server[s]. By itself a minimal install does not | do | much except routing. Adding another package when needed is not that | hard, is it ?
Please point to these scripts so that they may be updated to the "new" way of doing things. Feel free to submit patches upstream like a good community member too.
| > Sure, | > we'd like everybody to go back and rewrite their scripts but I | > don't see | > that happening any time soon. | > | I see no reason to have people rewrite their scripts and I have no | intent to enforce that on anyone. | The only question I ask is "what did they do before the summer of | 2011 | when minimal.iso was launched " ?
I see many reasons to have people rewrite their scripts. It's so that we can move forward with technology. Keep up to date on the "proper" methods for doing things or just plain don't do them at all. We need to move forward and sometimes that means breaking things. Usually this is kept to an absolute minimum. IMHO this is a minor break and the scripts in question should be fixed/updated.
On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 1:05 PM, James A. Peltier jpeltier@sfu.ca wrote:
I see many reasons to have people rewrite their scripts. It's so that we can move forward with technology.
It's technology, not fashion. If the 'new' breaks old documented processes it isn't moving forward, it is just different. If it is really better, it should easily maintain backwards compatibility.
----- Original Message ----- | On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 1:05 PM, James A. Peltier jpeltier@sfu.ca | wrote: | > | > | > I see many reasons to have people rewrite their scripts. It's so | > that we can move forward with technology. | | It's technology, not fashion. If the 'new' breaks old documented | processes it isn't moving forward, it is just different. If it is | really better, it should easily maintain backwards compatibility. | | -- | Les Mikesell | lesmikesell@gmail.com
My case is that the new fashion has been that way for years as deemed by the Upstream Provider. If the end user that being us admins, can't keep up with the vendors way of doing this then we should be sysadmins. vconfig isn't used any more. It hasn't been used in years. It was provided as a dependancy previously and as mentioned that dependency was removed. The fact that the original poster has not updated his scripts to keep up to date with the Upstream Provider's methods of doing this is the original poster's fault not that of CentOS team. Can it be added, sure! Does it need to be added when the user can and *should* upgrade their scripts, IMHO, no.
On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 5:17 PM, James A. Peltier jpeltier@sfu.ca wrote:
| | It's technology, not fashion. If the 'new' breaks old documented | processes it isn't moving forward, it is just different. If it is | really better, it should easily maintain backwards compatibility. |
My case is that the new fashion has been that way for years as deemed by the Upstream Provider. If the end user that being us admins, can't keep up with the vendors way of doing this then we should be sysadmins.
And my case is that things that don't maintain backwards compatibility for arbitrary reasons waste other people's time unnecessarily and are thus philosophically evil. The details don't matter much. People should be able to reuse their work.
----- Original Message ----- | On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 5:17 PM, James A. Peltier jpeltier@sfu.ca | wrote: | > | | > | It's technology, not fashion. If the 'new' breaks old documented | > | processes it isn't moving forward, it is just different. If it | > | is | > | really better, it should easily maintain backwards compatibility. | > | | | > My case is that the new fashion has been that way for years as | > deemed by the Upstream Provider. If the end user that being us | > admins, can't keep up with the vendors way of doing this then we | > should be sysadmins. | | And my case is that things that don't maintain backwards | compatibility | for arbitrary reasons waste other people's time unnecessarily and are | thus philosophically evil. The details don't matter much. People | should be able to reuse their work. | | -- | Les Mikesell | lesmikesell@gmail.com
Deprecation
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In the process of authoring computer software, its standards or documentation, or other technical standards, deprecation is a status applied to features, characteristics, or practices to indicate that they should be avoided, typically because they have been superseded.
Although deprecated software features remain in the software, their use may raise warning messages recommending alternative practices, and deprecation may indicate that the feature will be removed in the future. Features are deprecated—rather than immediately removed—in order to provide backward compatibility, and give programmers who have used the feature enough time to bring their code into compliance with the new standard.
vconfig was deprecated in RHEL 6. It's a simple as that. In fact the use of vconfig began to be discouraged back in 2005. They do not need to support deprecated methods for ever. If 6 years of of documentation states to not use vconfig and instead use ip commands instead aren't enough, what is?
Listen, there's tons of code out there that use old implementations of C ifdef's that I have had to fix because newer compilers no longer support them. I support software for a living and so I know it hard work, but people need to keep up. There's a reason we don't all write all our code in assembler. There are better tools for the job today.
Just throwing these out there as reference.
https://access.redhat.com/knowledge/docs/en-US/Red_Hat_Enterprise_Linux/6/pd...
<quote> Only the most commonly used commands are available in the pre-installation environment: arping, awk, basename, bash, bunzip2, bzcat, cat, chattr, chgrp, chmod, chown, chroot, ... umount, uniq, vconfig, vi, wc, wget, xargs, zcat. ^^^^^^^ </quote>
So it was only last year that RH got all traces of vconfig out of the standard scripts and tools. Good for them. However, there are lots of references like these:
http://www.serkey.com/vlan-configuration-native-vlan-and-setting-pvid-bcu5dw... http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenNetworking
These directly reference vconfig, include official sources, and are reasonably recent.
I'm not arguing that IP-Utils hasn't been the "more correct" solution for years or that any new script I write I should use the right tool. Only pointing out that vconfig is very much entrenched into the psyche of sysadmins, many of whom still use RHEL4 and RHEL5 as well as Ubuntu and other rot and we very much don't intend to have multiple versions of our scripts. Vconfig has been a stable in such things as vif-bridge scripts for KVM or Xen for years. If you look at CloudStack and I'll bet anything OpenStack has them by the bushel too.
But as has been said, "yum install vconfig" and we can go away chuffed. If the intent is for "minimal" to be pure and legacy free, then I can live with it.
On 08/17/2012 11:57 PM, Les Mikesell wrote:
And my case is that things that don't maintain backwards compatibility for arbitrary reasons waste other people's time unnecessarily and are thus philosophically evil. The details don't matter much. People should be able to reuse their work.
I dont think anyone is saying that the old way should go away completely - but if there are better alternatives that do more, then carrying excess baggage on the minimal CD might not be ideal.
eg. if you so wish uucp is still usable. you just need to get through a few hops
On 08/17/2012 02:03 PM, Matthew Patton wrote:
There are a skillion shell scripts for KVM/QEMU, Xen, embedded firewalls, etc. that use 'vconfig' because that's how it's been done for ages.
Could you point at some of these that are in wide use ?
- KB
On Fri, 17 Aug 2012 09:28:09 -0400, Karanbir Singh mail-lists@karan.org wrote:
On 08/17/2012 02:03 PM, Matthew Patton wrote:
There are a skillion shell scripts for KVM/QEMU, Xen, embedded firewalls, etc. that use 'vconfig' because that's how it's been done for ages.
Could you point at some of these that are in wide use ?
Right now I'm mostly involved in CLoudStack but there are many people who have written their own replacements to the (well, used to be) retarded Xen vifbr-up scripts that shipped with Xen and KVM for many years. I'm sure you can find lots of %pre/$post anaconda scripts that use it too. If you Google "add a vlan to an interface" or "create kvm bridge network" I'd say it's 99.5%+ all 'vconfig' and I have yet to see an 'ip add link' citation in the search results.
If the attitude is "too bad, we obsoleted it, get over it" in classic unix-snobbery fasion, fine. I'll deal. My retort to those who decided that vconfig should be deprecated is, why not rewrite it as a shell script wrapper around 'ip' with a nice stderr of "hey, this tool is deprecated."
On 08/17/2012 07:29 PM, Matthew Patton wrote:
If the attitude is "too bad, we obsoleted it, get over it" in classic unix-snobbery fasion, fine. I'll deal. My retort to those who decided that vconfig should be deprecated is, why not rewrite it as a shell script wrapper around 'ip' with a nice stderr of "hey, this tool is deprecated."
Not sure what side of the bed you got out of this morning...
The point here is : your assumption that a way to achieve something as being missing from the minimal iso is wrong. Now if you want to have a specific tool brought into the distro, which there is scope to do, need to justify it. We have plenty of room on the minimal iso to add more things in - but lets not just randomly add stuff in.
Lets leave the numbers of of your ass like '99.5% of the people use vconfig' out. Unless you have done a survey of everyone who does vlan configs as a matter of routine and can point us at it.
Secondly, I did google "add vlan to an interface centos" and the first 5 hits all talk about using the sysconfig scripts - which in turn use ip and not vconfig. I didnt bother looking any further.
So, take a breath. I am sure can all understand that while there are multiple ways of doing things, and the fact that there is historic convention that might be at play here - lets still ensure a tangible reason to make the addition exists.
So with that in mind, fancy trying again ?
On Fri, 17 Aug 2012 16:30:16 -0400, Karanbir Singh mail-lists@karan.org wrote:
Secondly, I did google "add vlan to an interface centos" and the first 5 hits all talk about using the sysconfig scripts
which is irrelevant. ifcfg scripts require the specially formatted files to exist or be generated via NOW documents. Dynamic environments don't hard code things like that.
So with that in mind, fancy trying again ?
pretty please can we put this in the minimal distro? *beg* Having multiple copies of a 4G DVD iSO (I have sites all over the place) really burns a lot of disk for no good reason. Or maybe "disk1" should be like RHEL of yore? About <600MB and it had everything reasonable to expect of a basic system?
While I'm at it, a minimal system shouldn't be lacking the following IMO.
bind-utils ntp nc man (the packages install all the manpages, so why not a way to read them?) wget
On 17/08/12 22:45, Matthew Patton wrote:
While I'm at it, a minimal system shouldn't be lacking the following IMO.
bind-utils ntp nc man (the packages install all the manpages, so why not a way to read them?) wget
From the docs:
"The aim of this disk is to install a CentOS 6.3 system which has a minimum of packages needed to have a functional system, with no compromise regarding security and fully network and yum aware."
Running 'yum install foo' immediately after install pretty much solves all of the above.
The minimal CD doesn't aim to be everything to everyone (the DVD does that), but rather a minimal set of packages designed to leave the user with a system with network and yum capability so they may then install the additional packages they require.
I'm sure we could all come up with a list of 5 "must have" packages that should go on the CD but then it won't be minimal any more will it?
On Fri, 17 Aug 2012 18:00:39 -0400, Ned Slider ned@unixmail.co.uk wrote:
"The aim of this disk is to install a CentOS 6.3 system which has a minimum of packages needed to have a functional system, with no compromise regarding security and fully network and yum aware."
yes I get the sentiment. Ok strike 'man' and 'ntp'. But netcat and bind-utils are TROUBLESHOOTING tools. When the install is done and your machine don't work, it's mighty nice to be able to see if you have more than 'ping' working. If name resolution isn't working 'yum' isn't going to be productive. My rationale for wget is so that in a pinch you can get files be they config, RPM or whatever. NFS-utils is in there which could be argued is of less import.
I'm not trying to argue unnecessarily here but minimal should IMO be more than just the exact number of packages left over after we've managed to remove every last thing we could.
My piece has been said. Talk amongst yourselves.
On 08/18/2012 12:45 AM, Matthew Patton wrote:
So with that in mind, fancy trying again ?
pretty please can we put this in the minimal distro? *beg* Having multiple copies of a 4G DVD iSO (I have sites all over the place) really burns a lot of disk for no good reason. Or maybe "disk1" should be like RHEL of yore? About<600MB and it had everything reasonable to expect of a basic system?
See below my answer on that. To put it short: your wish will come true.
While I'm at it, a minimal system shouldn't be lacking the following IMO.
bind-utils ntp nc man (the packages install all the manpages, so why not a way to read them?)
If it was my decision , for the minimal.iso I would tweak anaconda to do echo "%_excludedocs 0" >> /etc/rpm/macros prior to install
wget
All the packages that you mentioned and quite a few more will be included in a CD image which should appear once I manage to make more free time than I had during the last 6-8 weeks. All the bits needed to complete the work for this new iso are in my yard but several unrelated events happened at once and required most of my time since end of June.
On 08/17/2012 10:45 PM, Matthew Patton wrote:
which is irrelevant. ifcfg scripts require the specially formatted files to exist or be generated via NOW documents. Dynamic environments don't hard code things like that.
agreed :)
Having multiple copies of a 4G DVD iSO (I have sites all over the place) really burns a lot of disk for no good reason. Or maybe "disk1" should be like RHEL of yore? About <600MB and it had everything reasonable to expect of a basic system?
Christoph pointed to these on irc a short while back : https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=714035 and https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=645796 - I think they are both relevant here.
While I'm at it, a minimal system shouldn't be lacking the following IMO.
bind-utils ntp nc man (the packages install all the manpages, so why not a way to read them?) wget
Since the early days of CentOS-6, we've spoken about getting another install type called the Lightweight Server media going - perhaps its time to kick that effort back in a bit, and get these packages added in ( but it would still be quite nice to get a real user story, or stories together as to the real problems we hope to fix with that ).
On 08/17/2012 12:09 PM, Matthew Patton wrote:
per http://wiki.centos.org/Manuals/ReleaseNotes/CentOSMinimalCD6.3
<quote> The aim of this disk is to install a CentOS 6.3 system which has a minimum of packages needed to have a functional system, with no compromise regarding security and fully network and yum aware </quote>
Which is quite funny since vconfig didn't get included which is WAY more common and important than FCoE and some other bits...
Can someone please update the package list?
It's been quite a long time since vconfig is not needed. Use the following command instead:
ip link add dev ${DEVICE} link ${PHYSDEV} type vlan id ${VID}
-
James A. Peltier -
Karanbir Singh -
Les Mikesell -
Manuel Wolfshant -
Matthew Patton -
Ned Slider