Hi,
I have been asked a few times about a CentOS 5 ServerCD. Is something like this planned or simply impossible ?
(Was reminded by this comment on LWN: http://lwn.net/Articles/304730/)
Dag Wieers wrote:
Hi,
I have been asked a few times about a CentOS 5 ServerCD. Is something like this planned or simply impossible ?
(Was reminded by this comment on LWN: http://lwn.net/Articles/304730/)
Some of the issues, of the top of my head :
1) Upstream now has a product called 'Server' and at the time we felt it might cause confusion to have a 'Server' that is not even remotely the same thing as upstreams 'Server'
2) ServerCD 4 to ServerCD(!) 5 upgrades required a ServerCD5 that was almost 900MB in size.
3) Since you can now have a finer level of package selection and installation control at install time, many people felt that the impact and use case for ServerCD was diminished.
4) Talk at the time of a CentOSPlus kernel based installed ( therefore xfs etc support at install time, additional drivers, perhaps some more userland stuff too ) might be a good idea, but that never got traction so we felt that if no one really cared enough to talk about it, perhaps no one really wanted it - or people already have process's in place that worked around the issue.
Finally, it wasent going to be possible to get the exact same usage scenarios covered in a single CD for CentOS-5 as it was for CentOS-4. Perhaps if there is enough interest we can revisit this situation and reconsider the issues. But thats just what the reasons are why there isnt a CentOS-5 servercd at the moment. Nothing stops that situation from changing within reasonable grounds.
- KB
On Mon, 3 Nov 2008, Karanbir Singh wrote:
Dag Wieers wrote:
I have been asked a few times about a CentOS 5 ServerCD. Is something like this planned or simply impossible ?
(Was reminded by this comment on LWN: http://lwn.net/Articles/304730/)
Some of the issues, of the top of my head :
- Upstream now has a product called 'Server' and at the time we felt it
might cause confusion to have a 'Server' that is not even remotely the same thing as upstreams 'Server'
- ServerCD 4 to ServerCD(!) 5 upgrades required a ServerCD5 that was almost
900MB in size.
- Since you can now have a finer level of package selection and installation
control at install time, many people felt that the impact and use case for ServerCD was diminished.
- Talk at the time of a CentOSPlus kernel based installed ( therefore xfs
etc support at install time, additional drivers, perhaps some more userland stuff too ) might be a good idea, but that never got traction so we felt that if no one really cared enough to talk about it, perhaps no one really wanted it - or people already have process's in place that worked around the issue.
Finally, it wasent going to be possible to get the exact same usage scenarios covered in a single CD for CentOS-5 as it was for CentOS-4. Perhaps if there is enough interest we can revisit this situation and reconsider the issues. But thats just what the reasons are why there isnt a CentOS-5 servercd at the moment. Nothing stops that situation from changing within reasonable grounds.
A single CD installer providing a minimal installation that is good enough to yum install the rest of the packages seems useful to me.
An installable LiveCD that provides this minimal installation would be good enough as well.
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Dag Wieers wrote:
A single CD installer providing a minimal installation that is good enough to yum install the rest of the packages seems useful to me.
An installable LiveCD that provides this minimal installation would be good enough as well.
It will be usefull for those who with to walk around with a CD drive and need to install servers.
Preferably with support for things like XFS. One the basic system is up one can pull in everything else. Apache, mysql and the lot are all things that can be pulled in once the basic installation is done.
But iptables, ntpd, sshd are however things I considere part of the core installation.
I guess that would be a significantly small CD to be around for future releases as well.
Hugo.
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Hugo van der Kooij wrote:
It will be usefull for those who with to walk around with a CD drive and need to install servers.
the only issue with that is what / how would you define 'servers'. Its easier to work with something like a package list of what would be considered reasonable to have on a default install, then remove the option to make installtime package selections and deliver only that raw package manifest thats been pre-selected.
Preferably with support for things like XFS. One the basic system is up one can pull in everything else. Apache, mysql and the lot are all things that can be pulled in once the basic installation is done.
ok, xfs is venturing into centosplus lands...
But iptables, ntpd, sshd are however things I considere part of the core installation.
How about you work out a list, we can then all argue over it, whatever packages get onto the list then can pose a potential manifest to work with ?
I guess that would be a significantly small CD to be around for future releases as well.
yup, I am trying to automate things as much as possible, so once we have something in the grinding machine, it should stay there.
- KB
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Karanbir Singh wrote:
Hugo van der Kooij wrote:
It will be usefull for those who with to walk around with a CD drive and need to install servers.
the only issue with that is what / how would you define 'servers'. Its easier to work with something like a package list of what would be considered reasonable to have on a default install, then remove the option to make installtime package selections and deliver only that raw package manifest thats been pre-selected.
Simple. Whatever needs to be on there to install and harden the machine so you can install it in a rack and access it remotely with ssh. So I would strip almost every package.
Preferably with support for things like XFS. One the basic system is up one can pull in everything else. Apache, mysql and the lot are all things that can be pulled in once the basic installation is done.
ok, xfs is venturing into centosplus lands...
But iptables, ntpd, sshd are however things I considere part of the core installation.
Let us just not forget ip6tables ;-)
How about you work out a list, we can then all argue over it, whatever packages get onto the list then can pose a potential manifest to work with ?
Well. Actually. I can not think of anything else I would need there. I would just take it from there and use yum to install those bits I might need on that server.
How is that for a short list?
Hugo.
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Hugo van der Kooij wrote:
But iptables, ntpd, sshd are however things I considere part of the core installation.
Let us just not forget ip6tables ;-)
How about you work out a list, we can then all argue over it, whatever packages get onto the list then can pose a potential manifest to work with ?
Well. Actually. I can not think of anything else I would need there. I would just take it from there and use yum to install those bits I might need on that server.
How is that for a short list?
Plus stuff like ftp(??), wget and screen if there's room.
Ned Slider wrote:
Hugo van der Kooij wrote:
But iptables, ntpd, sshd are however things I considere part of the core installation.
Let us just not forget ip6tables ;-)
How about you work out a list, we can then all argue over it, whatever packages get onto the list then can pose a potential manifest to work with ?
Well. Actually. I can not think of anything else I would need there. I would just take it from there and use yum to install those bits I might need on that server.
How is that for a short list?
Plus stuff like ftp(??), wget and screen if there's room.
This is the %packages section from a kickstart file I use for booting off of only the first CD, it's a pretty good minimal package set, as it still has ftp, telnet, and wget, you could probably add a few more (ie, take them out of the list below), and still install all the packages off of one cd, I'm just too lazy to figure out which packages are on disc1 and leave them on.
%packages @core @base device-mapper-multipath -pam_pkcs11 -krb5-workstation -ksh -mcelog -crash -aspell-en -coolkey -aspell -dump -dosfstools -libaio -nano -finger -irqbalance -conman -pcmciautils -pam_ccreds -sos -mtools -dos2unix -gpm -cpuspeed -iptstate -NetworkManager -pinfo -ipsec-tools -sysreport -mtr -mkbootdisk -pam_krb5 -irda-utils -pam_passwdqc -amtu -ypbind -jwhois -nc -smartmontools -ccid -tcsh -bluez-utils -logwatch -gnupg -talk
CentOS-devel mailing list CentOS-devel@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-devel
Matt
Matt Rose wrote:
But iptables, ntpd, sshd are however things I considere part of the core installation.
Let us just not forget ip6tables ;-)
Plus stuff like ftp(??), wget and screen if there's room.
This is the %packages section from a kickstart file I use for booting
I dont think the resulting install, even after including everything that Ned + Hugo + dag have mentioned would result in something remotely callable 'Server CD'.
does this mean that while ServerCD has traction, the real problem being solved is something else ?
A minimal install can be done with about 160 rpms, getting a CD to do just that is not that hard. Is that whats really needed in this case ? Would people expect it to support all the regular install mechanism's too ? ( cd, usb, pxe, xen, etc ??)
Karanbir Singh wrote:
Hugo van der Kooij wrote:
It will be usefull for those who with to walk around with a CD drive and need to install servers.
the only issue with that is what / how would you define 'servers'. Its easier to work with something like a package list of what would be considered reasonable to have on a default install, then remove the option to make installtime package selections and deliver only that raw package manifest thats been pre-selected.
Isn't kickstart enough for servers? Unless it's your first server, it's easy enough to specify ks=http://ks.example.com/ks?server
Maybe, if there's a CD image, it could have an interactive ks, one that makes an otherwise non-default package selection?
There does not need to be a separate CD, if the first CD in the set has the capability.
_I_ would be content with a so-called server install that has just enough CentOS to get networking up and allow me to install more stuff. How hard is this?
yum install this that theother
If I want to script customisation and I don't want to use kickstart, it's not hard to do it on first boot: one script could reconfigure yum, install standard and non-standard packages, add users, whatever. It's not really so different whether it's done via ks or later.
I've never really understood the point of a so-called server CD.
Hugo van der Kooij wrote:
An installable LiveCD that provides this minimal installation would be good enough as well.
It will be usefull for those who with to walk around with a CD drive and need to install servers.
If you have enough machines on identical hardware to make partition image copies attractive, you might like clonezilla. You can boot it in an assortment of ways and save and restore disk or partition images that can be included on the bootable medium if it fits or accessed via nfs, smb, or sshfs. It knows enough about most linux and windows filesystems to only copy the used parts of the disk so it is very fast. http://clonezilla.org/clonezilla-live/
On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 1:00 PM, Dag Wieers dag@centos.org wrote:
An installable LiveCD that provides this minimal installation would be good enough as well.
Scientific Linux is providing installable LiveCD/DVD (32-bit and 64-bit) and mini_livecd (32-bit). For example,
https://www.scientificlinux.org/news/livecd-52
Perhaps, instead of re-inventing the wheel, we can collaborate with SL and create CentOS versions without pouring a huge amount of time and efforts? Just a thought...
Akemi
Akemi Yagi wrote:
Scientific Linux is providing installable LiveCD/DVD (32-bit and 64-bit) and mini_livecd (32-bit). For example,
https://www.scientificlinux.org/news/livecd-52
Perhaps, instead of re-inventing the wheel, we can collaborate with SL and create CentOS versions without pouring a huge amount of time and efforts? Just a thought...
Asking the lazy question - but do you know what process they use for the livecd -> rw-storage transfer ?
- KB
On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 1:56 PM, Karanbir Singh mail-lists@karan.org wrote:
Akemi Yagi wrote:
Scientific Linux is providing installable LiveCD/DVD (32-bit and 64-bit) and mini_livecd (32-bit). For example,
https://www.scientificlinux.org/news/livecd-52
Perhaps, instead of re-inventing the wheel, we can collaborate with SL and create CentOS versions without pouring a huge amount of time and efforts? Just a thought...
Asking the lazy question - but do you know what process they use for the livecd -> rw-storage transfer ?
Basically by copying stuff. Here's an excerpt:
"Since your PC will most probably boot from the first hard disk (/dev/hda), we will install the boot loader GRUB into the Master Boot Record (MBR) of /dev/hda. To install the LiveCD run now
# livecd-install -swap=/dev/hdb1 -mbr=/dev/hda /dev/hdb2
The script livecd-install will format /dev/hdb2, copy all data from the LiveCD to /dev/hdb2 including your changes that you or the system have done since booting the LiveCD. Things that are Live System specific will be removed and files that are need on a working Scientific Linux installation will be generated. The directory /boot will be populate with kernel, initrd, and the grub folder. The grub configuration file grub.conf will be generated and grub will be installed into the Master Boot Record (MBR) of /dev/hda. Device /dev/hdb1 will be added as Swap partition to /etc/fstab. "
For full text, please see:
http://linux.web.psi.ch/livecd/install.html
Akemi
Akemi Yagi wrote:
Basically by copying stuff. Here's an excerpt:
# livecd-install -swap=/dev/hdb1 -mbr=/dev/hda /dev/hdb2
not pretty.... I have mixed feelings about this sort of a thing. For situations like the eeepc build, where there are 4 variants with minor differences between them, its easy and functional ( using this sort of a copy + fit script ).
But for use on a more generic media that might get used on $random+1 machines, I dont think this is a good solution at all. One could potentially start writing a UI around this script; that asks the basic questions and passes them in, but then at what stage do you stop ? since thats essentially what an installer would do in the first place.
<blink>Given enough motivation, one can actually start anaconda from a running machine.... </blink>
Dag Wieers wrote:
A single CD installer providing a minimal installation that is good enough to yum install the rest of the packages seems useful to me.
You can already do that from cd-1 of the distro.
An installable LiveCD that provides this minimal installation would be good enough as well.
If its a case of doing a dd if=blah of=blah, that would be easy to do, otherwise, I am not sure of what the state of play with livecd -> rw storage installers is today. Is that something that anaconda even does at the moment ? I've not been looking at the anaconda tree recently.
- KB
on 11-3-2008 12:38 PM Karanbir Singh spake the following:
Dag Wieers wrote:
Hi,
I have been asked a few times about a CentOS 5 ServerCD. Is something like this planned or simply impossible ?
(Was reminded by this comment on LWN: http://lwn.net/Articles/304730/)
Some of the issues, of the top of my head :
- Upstream now has a product called 'Server' and at the time we felt it
might cause confusion to have a 'Server' that is not even remotely the same thing as upstreams 'Server'
- ServerCD 4 to ServerCD(!) 5 upgrades required a ServerCD5 that was
almost 900MB in size.
- Since you can now have a finer level of package selection and
installation control at install time, many people felt that the impact and use case for ServerCD was diminished.
- Talk at the time of a CentOSPlus kernel based installed ( therefore
xfs etc support at install time, additional drivers, perhaps some more userland stuff too ) might be a good idea, but that never got traction so we felt that if no one really cared enough to talk about it, perhaps no one really wanted it - or people already have process's in place that worked around the issue.
Finally, it wasent going to be possible to get the exact same usage scenarios covered in a single CD for CentOS-5 as it was for CentOS-4. Perhaps if there is enough interest we can revisit this situation and reconsider the issues. But thats just what the reasons are why there isnt a CentOS-5 servercd at the moment. Nothing stops that situation from changing within reasonable grounds.
- KB
It would be nice if you could just have an install option on the regular CD1 like "linux minimal" that would be somewhat easier than the way you have to do a minimal install now. It just isn't that intuitive to me. If I remember correctly, you have to clear all the check boxes, specify to "select packages now", and clear some more check boxes. I don't know how easy that is to add to the anaconda installer.
Scott Silva wrote:
It would be nice if you could just have an install option on the regular CD1 like "linux minimal" that would be somewhat easier than the way you have to do a minimal install now. It just isn't that intuitive to me. If I remember correctly, you have to clear all the check boxes, specify to "select packages now", and clear some more check boxes. I don't know how easy that is to add to the anaconda installer.
I don't think a minimal install from CD1 works in all cases. I seem to remember some mention of it requiring additional disks on some RAID installs??
But yes, a minimal install CD as opposed to a "server" CD sounds like a good solution. I agree it needn't include any "server" stuff like apache, mysql, php etc that can be pulled in by yum after installation. As mentioned previously that approach should allow the package list to be kept small enough to allow it to be more easily maintainable through subsequent major version upgrades.
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Akemi Yagi -
Dag Wieers -
Dag Wieers -
Hugo van der Kooij -
John Summerfield -
Karanbir Singh -
Les Mikesell -
Matt Rose -
Ned Slider -
Scott Silva