As mentioned in previous thread about centos 7 EOL, one of the last application that was still running on centos linux 7 is mailman, serving centos lists for a long time now.
Thanks to all the hard work done by community contributors (thanks Michel, Neal and others having participated !), there is now a fully functional mailman3 stack available in Epel9.
There are still very minor things to do to be 100% ready for a real migration, but we should have a stable .stg. instance deployed very soon. (There is a sandbox instance that is reinstalled / scratched for now)
While importing existing lists/archives from mailman2 to mailman3 test instance, there was a discussion (in a Matrix room) about eventually using this migration as an opportunity to rename the lists.
For legacy reasons (don't know why as it was even before I joined the project :) ) , lists were created on the same box as MX record for centos.org and so lists were usually called : <lists>@centos.org. The (usual) method is instead to create a dedicate host/sub-domain that will hosts mailling lists, like lists.<domain> and so lists.centos.org (amusingly that's also the hostname we have for the https instance but not for the existing lists)
As the discussion was just happening in a Matrix room, and more like a brainstorming session, I thought it would be better (for awareness) to start a real thread on this list, as it's about the future of the list itself :)
Some people suggested to rename lists like this : (example):
centos-devel@centos.org => devel@lists.centos.org
While technically that seems to work (tested on the import from mailman2 to mailman3) , it would need local aliases so that mails sent to previous address list would just still go to new list (to be tested as I don't know which checks are done by mailman-core now, and SPF, DMARC, DKIM, etc if we just create aliases)
This is a RFC (request for comments) thread so let us know what you think .. ideally before we start migrating the real instance :-)
Kind Regards,
On Mon, Mar 18, 2024 at 3:39 AM Fabian Arrotin arrfab@centos.org wrote:
As mentioned in previous thread about centos 7 EOL, one of the last application that was still running on centos linux 7 is mailman, serving centos lists for a long time now.
Thanks to all the hard work done by community contributors (thanks Michel, Neal and others having participated !), there is now a fully functional mailman3 stack available in Epel9.
There are still very minor things to do to be 100% ready for a real migration, but we should have a stable .stg. instance deployed very soon. (There is a sandbox instance that is reinstalled / scratched for now)
While importing existing lists/archives from mailman2 to mailman3 test instance, there was a discussion (in a Matrix room) about eventually using this migration as an opportunity to rename the lists.
For legacy reasons (don't know why as it was even before I joined the project :) ) , lists were created on the same box as MX record for centos.org and so lists were usually called : <lists>@centos.org. The (usual) method is instead to create a dedicate host/sub-domain that will hosts mailling lists, like lists.<domain> and so lists.centos.org (amusingly that's also the hostname we have for the https instance but not for the existing lists)
As the discussion was just happening in a Matrix room, and more like a brainstorming session, I thought it would be better (for awareness) to start a real thread on this list, as it's about the future of the list itself :)
Some people suggested to rename lists like this : (example):
centos-devel@centos.org => devel@lists.centos.org
While technically that seems to work (tested on the import from mailman2 to mailman3) , it would need local aliases so that mails sent to previous address list would just still go to new list (to be tested as I don't know which checks are done by mailman-core now, and SPF, DMARC, DKIM, etc if we just create aliases)
This is a RFC (request for comments) thread so let us know what you think .. ideally before we start migrating the real instance :-)
The move to lists.centos.org is necessary so the mail policies can be handled correctly. That's why lists.fedoraproject.org and lists.opensuse.org are set up the way they are, too.
As for renaming mailing lists, I think we should deduplicate the "CentOS" name out of the lists, so the mapping would be like so:
* CentOS-devel@centos.org -> devel@lists.centos.org * CentOS@centos.org -> general@lists.centos.org * CentOS-{lang}@centos.org -> general-{lang}@lists.centos.org
The rest are straightforward, similar to these.
When I helped with the migration to mailman3 on the openSUSE side, we did a similar move and made sure the old addresses redirect to the new ones.
I'm not sure I like the term general, I think it might get lost in translation though I do like where you're going with this. What about discuss?
Amy
*Amy Marrich*
She/Her/Hers
Principal Technical Marketing Manager - Cloud Platforms
Red Hat, Inc https://www.redhat.com/
amy@redhat.com
Mobile: 954-818-0514
Slack: amarrich
IRC: spotz https://www.redhat.com/
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 7:03 AM Neal Gompa ngompa13@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, Mar 18, 2024 at 3:39 AM Fabian Arrotin arrfab@centos.org wrote:
As mentioned in previous thread about centos 7 EOL, one of the last application that was still running on centos linux 7 is mailman, serving centos lists for a long time now.
Thanks to all the hard work done by community contributors (thanks Michel, Neal and others having participated !), there is now a fully functional mailman3 stack available in Epel9.
There are still very minor things to do to be 100% ready for a real migration, but we should have a stable .stg. instance deployed very soon. (There is a sandbox instance that is reinstalled / scratched for
now)
While importing existing lists/archives from mailman2 to mailman3 test instance, there was a discussion (in a Matrix room) about eventually using this migration as an opportunity to rename the lists.
For legacy reasons (don't know why as it was even before I joined the project :) ) , lists were created on the same box as MX record for centos.org and so lists were usually called : <lists>@centos.org. The (usual) method is instead to create a dedicate host/sub-domain that will hosts mailling lists, like lists.<domain> and so lists.centos.org (amusingly that's also the hostname we have for the https instance but not for the existing lists)
As the discussion was just happening in a Matrix room, and more like a brainstorming session, I thought it would be better (for awareness) to start a real thread on this list, as it's about the future of the list itself :)
Some people suggested to rename lists like this : (example):
centos-devel@centos.org => devel@lists.centos.org
While technically that seems to work (tested on the import from mailman2 to mailman3) , it would need local aliases so that mails sent to previous address list would just still go to new list (to be tested as I don't know which checks are done by mailman-core now, and SPF, DMARC, DKIM, etc if we just create aliases)
This is a RFC (request for comments) thread so let us know what you think .. ideally before we start migrating the real instance :-)
The move to lists.centos.org is necessary so the mail policies can be handled correctly. That's why lists.fedoraproject.org and lists.opensuse.org are set up the way they are, too.
As for renaming mailing lists, I think we should deduplicate the "CentOS" name out of the lists, so the mapping would be like so:
- CentOS-devel@centos.org -> devel@lists.centos.org
- CentOS@centos.org -> general@lists.centos.org
- CentOS-{lang}@centos.org -> general-{lang}@lists.centos.org
The rest are straightforward, similar to these.
When I helped with the migration to mailman3 on the openSUSE side, we did a similar move and made sure the old addresses redirect to the new ones.
-- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! _______________________________________________ CentOS-devel mailing list CentOS-devel@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-devel
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 8:43 AM Amy Marrich amy@redhat.com wrote:
I'm not sure I like the term general, I think it might get lost in translation though I do like where you're going with this. What about discuss?
That's fine with me too.
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 8:48 AM Neal Gompa ngompa13@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 8:43 AM Amy Marrich amy@redhat.com wrote:
I'm not sure I like the term general, I think it might get lost in translation though I do like where you're going with this. What about discuss?
That's fine with me too.
Agree with Amy. Thank you to the group doing this migration.
josh
On 2024-03-21 06:37, Josh Boyer wrote:
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 8:48 AM Neal Gompa ngompa13@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 8:43 AM Amy Marrich amy@redhat.com wrote:
I'm not sure I like the term general, I think it might get lost in translation though I do like where you're going with this. What about discuss?
That's fine with me too.
Agree with Amy. Thank you to the group doing this migration.
This works for me as well. Thank you!
Cheers Davide
On 21/03/2024 16:47, Davide Cavalca wrote:
On 2024-03-21 06:37, Josh Boyer wrote:
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 8:48 AM Neal Gompa ngompa13@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 8:43 AM Amy Marrich amy@redhat.com wrote:
I'm not sure I like the term general, I think it might get lost in translation though I do like where you're going with this. What about discuss?
That's fine with me too.
Agree with Amy. Thank you to the group doing this migration.
This works for me as well. Thank you!
Cheers Davide
I'd like to get board approval (thread here) about renaming the lists like this :
arm-dev@centos.org => arm-dev@lists.centos.org centos@centos.org => discuss@lists.centos.org (proposed by Amy) centos-announce@centos.org => announce@lists.centos.org centos-automotive-sig@centos.org => automotive-sig@lists.centos.org centos-build-reports@centos.org : not active so not even importing it (only importing static archives) centos-cr-announce@centos.org : used only for CR repo, which doesn't exist anymore so not importing centos-{cz,de,es,fr,nl,pt-br,zh}@centos.org => {cz,de,es,fr,nl,pt-br,zh}@lists.centos.org ci-users@centos.org => ci-users@lists.centos.org centos-gsoc: not needed anymore so not importing ? centos-mirror@centos.org => mirror@lists.centos.org centos-mirror-announce@centos.org => mirror-announce@lists.centos.org centos-newsletter@centos.org => newsletter@lists.centos.org centos-promo@centos.org => promo@lists.centos.org centos-virt@centos.org => virt@lists.centos.org
Can we get final ack on list rename operation and if so I'll be able to schedule the migration to mailman3 soon
PS: worth knowing that previous lists name will still be available for people sending on old addresses as they would be aliased (mailman3 supports this)
Kind Regards,
On Wed, 2024-03-27 at 15:15 +0100, Fabian Arrotin wrote:
[EXTERNAL] – This message is from an external sender
On 21/03/2024 16:47, Davide Cavalca wrote:
On 2024-03-21 06:37, Josh Boyer wrote:
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 8:48 AM Neal Gompa ngompa13@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 8:43 AM Amy Marrich amy@redhat.com wrote:
I'm not sure I like the term general, I think it might get lost in translation though I do like where you're going with this. What about discuss?
That's fine with me too.
Agree with Amy. Thank you to the group doing this migration.
This works for me as well. Thank you!
Cheers Davide
I'd like to get board approval (thread here) about renaming the lists like this :
arm-dev@centos.org => arm-dev@lists.centos.org centos@centos.org => discuss@lists.centos.org (proposed by Amy) centos-announce@centos.org => announce@lists.centos.org centos-automotive-sig@centos.org => automotive-sig@lists.centos.org centos-build-reports@centos.org : not active so not even importing it (only importing static archives) centos-cr-announce@centos.org : used only for CR repo, which doesn't exist anymore so not importing centos-{cz,de,es,fr,nl,pt-br,zh}@centos.org => {cz,de,es,fr,nl,pt-br,zh}@lists.centos.org ci-users@centos.org => ci-users@lists.centos.org centos-gsoc: not needed anymore so not importing ? centos-mirror@centos.org => mirror@lists.centos.org centos-mirror-announce@centos.org => mirror-announce@lists.centos.org centos-newsletter@centos.org => newsletter@lists.centos.org centos-promo@centos.org => promo@lists.centos.org centos-virt@centos.org => virt@lists.centos.org
Can we get final ack on list rename operation and if so I'll be able to schedule the migration to mailman3 soon
PS: worth knowing that previous lists name will still be available for people sending on old addresses as they would be aliased (mailman3 supports this)
Kind Regards,
Fabian Arrotin The CentOS Project | https://www.centos.org gpg key: 17F3B7A1 | @arrfab[@fosstodon.org]
That all looks fine to me.
Pat
On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 10:16 AM Fabian Arrotin arrfab@centos.org wrote:
On 21/03/2024 16:47, Davide Cavalca wrote:
On 2024-03-21 06:37, Josh Boyer wrote:
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 8:48 AM Neal Gompa ngompa13@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 8:43 AM Amy Marrich amy@redhat.com wrote:
I'm not sure I like the term general, I think it might get lost in translation though I do like where you're going with this. What about discuss?
That's fine with me too.
Agree with Amy. Thank you to the group doing this migration.
This works for me as well. Thank you!
Cheers Davide
I'd like to get board approval (thread here) about renaming the lists like this :
arm-dev@centos.org => arm-dev@lists.centos.org centos@centos.org => discuss@lists.centos.org (proposed by Amy) centos-announce@centos.org => announce@lists.centos.org centos-automotive-sig@centos.org => automotive-sig@lists.centos.org centos-build-reports@centos.org : not active so not even importing it (only importing static archives) centos-cr-announce@centos.org : used only for CR repo, which doesn't exist anymore so not importing centos-{cz,de,es,fr,nl,pt-br,zh}@centos.org => {cz,de,es,fr,nl,pt-br,zh}@lists.centos.org ci-users@centos.org => ci-users@lists.centos.org centos-gsoc: not needed anymore so not importing ? centos-mirror@centos.org => mirror@lists.centos.org centos-mirror-announce@centos.org => mirror-announce@lists.centos.org centos-newsletter@centos.org => newsletter@lists.centos.org centos-promo@centos.org => promo@lists.centos.org centos-virt@centos.org => virt@lists.centos.org
centos-{cz,de,es,fr,nl,pt-br,zh}@centos.org => {cz,de,es,fr,nl,pt-br,zh}@lists.centos.org
Can we do discuss-{lang} instead? That makes it a little clearer it's a counterpart to the main discuss@ list.
Also, please import gsoc@ even if it isn't used. We may need it in the future.
-- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
+1 from me with Neal's suggestion for clarity on the language lists
Amy Marrich
She/Her/Hers
Principal Technical Marketing Manager - Cloud Platforms
Red Hat, Inc
amy@redhat.com
Mobile: 954-818-0514
Slack: amarrich
IRC: spotz
On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 9:28 AM Neal Gompa ngompa13@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 10:16 AM Fabian Arrotin arrfab@centos.org wrote:
On 21/03/2024 16:47, Davide Cavalca wrote:
On 2024-03-21 06:37, Josh Boyer wrote:
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 8:48 AM Neal Gompa ngompa13@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 8:43 AM Amy Marrich amy@redhat.com wrote:
I'm not sure I like the term general, I think it might get lost in translation though I do like where you're going with this. What about discuss?
That's fine with me too.
Agree with Amy. Thank you to the group doing this migration.
This works for me as well. Thank you!
Cheers Davide
I'd like to get board approval (thread here) about renaming the lists like this :
arm-dev@centos.org => arm-dev@lists.centos.org centos@centos.org => discuss@lists.centos.org (proposed by Amy) centos-announce@centos.org => announce@lists.centos.org centos-automotive-sig@centos.org => automotive-sig@lists.centos.org centos-build-reports@centos.org : not active so not even importing it (only importing static archives) centos-cr-announce@centos.org : used only for CR repo, which doesn't exist anymore so not importing centos-{cz,de,es,fr,nl,pt-br,zh}@centos.org => {cz,de,es,fr,nl,pt-br,zh}@lists.centos.org ci-users@centos.org => ci-users@lists.centos.org centos-gsoc: not needed anymore so not importing ? centos-mirror@centos.org => mirror@lists.centos.org centos-mirror-announce@centos.org => mirror-announce@lists.centos.org centos-newsletter@centos.org => newsletter@lists.centos.org centos-promo@centos.org => promo@lists.centos.org centos-virt@centos.org => virt@lists.centos.org
centos-{cz,de,es,fr,nl,pt-br,zh}@centos.org => {cz,de,es,fr,nl,pt-br,zh}@lists.centos.org
Can we do discuss-{lang} instead? That makes it a little clearer it's a counterpart to the main discuss@ list.
Also, please import gsoc@ even if it isn't used. We may need it in the future.
-- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! _______________________________________________ CentOS-devel mailing list CentOS-devel@centos.org https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-devel
On 2024-03-27 07:27, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 10:16 AM Fabian Arrotin arrfab@centos.org wrote:
I'd like to get board approval (thread here) about renaming the lists like this :
arm-dev@centos.org => arm-dev@lists.centos.org centos@centos.org => discuss@lists.centos.org (proposed by Amy) centos-announce@centos.org => announce@lists.centos.org centos-automotive-sig@centos.org => automotive-sig@lists.centos.org centos-build-reports@centos.org : not active so not even importing it (only importing static archives) centos-cr-announce@centos.org : used only for CR repo, which doesn't exist anymore so not importing centos-{cz,de,es,fr,nl,pt-br,zh}@centos.org => {cz,de,es,fr,nl,pt-br,zh}@lists.centos.org ci-users@centos.org => ci-users@lists.centos.org centos-gsoc: not needed anymore so not importing ? centos-mirror@centos.org => mirror@lists.centos.org centos-mirror-announce@centos.org => mirror-announce@lists.centos.org centos-newsletter@centos.org => newsletter@lists.centos.org centos-promo@centos.org => promo@lists.centos.org centos-virt@centos.org => virt@lists.centos.org
centos-{cz,de,es,fr,nl,pt-br,zh}@centos.org => {cz,de,es,fr,nl,pt-br,zh}@lists.centos.org
Can we do discuss-{lang} instead? That makes it a little clearer it's a counterpart to the main discuss@ list.
Also, please import gsoc@ even if it isn't used. We may need it in the future.
This all looks good to me as well.
Cheers Davide
On 27/03/2024 19:27, Davide Cavalca wrote:
On 2024-03-27 07:27, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 10:16 AM Fabian Arrotin arrfab@centos.org wrote:
I'd like to get board approval (thread here) about renaming the lists like this :
<snip>
Final recap for the public lists to be imported and renamed at the same time :
arm-dev@centos.org => arm-dev@lists.centos.org centos@centos.org => discuss@lists.centos.org (proposed by Amy) centos-devel@centos.org => devel@lists.centos.org centos-announce@centos.org => announce@lists.centos.org centos-automotive-sig@centos.org => automotive-sig@lists.centos.org centos-{cz,de,es,fr,nl,pt-br,zh}@centos.org => discuss-{cz,de,es,fr,nl,pt-br,zh}@lists.centos.org ci-users@centos.org => ci-users@lists.centos.org centos-gsoc: => gsoc@lists.centos.org centos-mirror@centos.org => mirror@lists.centos.org centos-mirror-announce@centos.org => mirror-announce@lists.centos.org centos-newsletter@centos.org => newsletter@lists.centos.org centos-promo@centos.org => promo@lists.centos.org centos-virt@centos.org => virt@lists.centos.org
I'll write a wrapper script to automate the mailman2 => mailman3 import (host itself will be configured by new ansible mailman3 role, already tested) and I'll announce the day when we'll switch to new platform
Remark : If we rename we have to inform all users on all lists that they'll have to modify eventually their filters, if they filter based on list but not subject. Worth knowing that renaming a list modifies the email address but the list settings are still the same, so even if centos-devel@centos.org is imported as new list devel@lists.centos.org, the subject prefix (as imported by mailman2 import21 script) keeps it intact, so [CentOS-devel]
On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 8:58 AM Fabian Arrotin arrfab@centos.org wrote:
On 27/03/2024 19:27, Davide Cavalca wrote:
On 2024-03-27 07:27, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 10:16 AM Fabian Arrotin arrfab@centos.org wrote:
I'd like to get board approval (thread here) about renaming the lists like this :
<snip>
Final recap for the public lists to be imported and renamed at the same time :
arm-dev@centos.org => arm-dev@lists.centos.org centos@centos.org => discuss@lists.centos.org (proposed by Amy) centos-devel@centos.org => devel@lists.centos.org centos-announce@centos.org => announce@lists.centos.org centos-automotive-sig@centos.org => automotive-sig@lists.centos.org centos-{cz,de,es,fr,nl,pt-br,zh}@centos.org => discuss-{cz,de,es,fr,nl,pt-br,zh}@lists.centos.org ci-users@centos.org => ci-users@lists.centos.org centos-gsoc: => gsoc@lists.centos.org centos-mirror@centos.org => mirror@lists.centos.org centos-mirror-announce@centos.org => mirror-announce@lists.centos.org centos-newsletter@centos.org => newsletter@lists.centos.org centos-promo@centos.org => promo@lists.centos.org centos-virt@centos.org => virt@lists.centos.org
I'll write a wrapper script to automate the mailman2 => mailman3 import (host itself will be configured by new ansible mailman3 role, already tested) and I'll announce the day when we'll switch to new platform
Looks good!
Remark : If we rename we have to inform all users on all lists that they'll have to modify eventually their filters, if they filter based on list but not subject. Worth knowing that renaming a list modifies the email address but the list settings are still the same, so even if centos-devel@centos.org is imported as new list devel@lists.centos.org, the subject prefix (as imported by mailman2 import21 script) keeps it intact, so [CentOS-devel]
Yes, though we could drop the subject prefix too.
It seems like it'd be worth having a blog post or something to announce the changes coming with the transition.
-
Amy Marrich -
Davide Cavalca -
Fabian Arrotin -
Josh Boyer -
Neal Gompa -
Patrick Riehecky