Developers, developers, developers ...
We had a short discussion about "How to offer jobs / How to search for people who know CentOS" within the existing CentOS infrastructure. We dismissed the idea of putting a "Jobs forum" at http://www.centos.org/modules/newbb/, neither did we want a section on the web site which would have to be cared about by some sort of editorial staff.
(Note: We can still discuss about that)
What we thought about is a CentOS-jobs mailing list to which you can send a mail when you want to offer a job in which CentOS plays a role.
Some (rather unsorted) thoughts which came up:
- Do we also want people to be able to search for jobs (my opinion: No) - should that list be moderated (my opinion: Yes - by maybe more than one person) - Which standards do we need for a job to be posted there? That helps weeding out some "get criminal quick" schemes or other snowball schemes. - Do we want an unmoderated discussion list besides that for discussing about job offers - like on Usenet (my opinion: No, that really is a way for quick and lasting flame fests)
And the biggest questions: Do we need that all? Do you have another vision of how we can do those job offerings within our infrastructure? Do you have experiences with stuff like that? Do *you* want to moderate that list (or at least help with that)?
Discuss. I'd be particularly interested in the standards for job offerings.
Cheers,
Ralph
On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 5:23 PM, Ralph Angenendt ra+centos@br-online.de wrote:
Developers, developers, developers ...
I love this project!
- Do we also want people to be able to search for jobs (my opinion: No)
People who want to apply for a job should know how to handle Google :). Additionally, I think it normally only useful to skim through the job offers of the last one or two months.
- should that list be moderated (my opinion: Yes - by maybe more than
one person)
Yes.
- Which standards do we need for a job to be posted there? That helps
weeding out some "get criminal quick" schemes or other snowball schemes.
I think we should restrict this to CentOS (or upstream)-related job offers, not generic UNIX/Linux-related offers.
- Do we want an unmoderated discussion list besides that for discussing
about job offers - like on Usenet (my opinion: No, that really is a way for quick and lasting flame fests)
No, it does not serve a purpose. If someone want to follow up on an offer, they can do so via private mail.
And the biggest questions: Do we need that all? Do you have another vision of how we can do those job offerings within our infrastructure? Do you have experiences with stuff like that? Do *you* want to moderate that list (or at least help with that)?
Other projects have comparable lists, and they are great. Sometimes the offers are too general, so, I am all in for moderation. I'd like to help moderating.
-- Daniel
On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 8:52 AM, Daniel de Kok me@danieldk.org wrote:
On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 5:23 PM, Ralph Angenendt ra+centos@br-online.de wrote:
- Which standards do we need for a job to be posted there? That helps
weeding out some "get criminal quick" schemes or other snowball schemes.
I think we should restrict this to CentOS (or upstream)-related job offers, not generic UNIX/Linux-related offers.
As a test case, I'd like to present this post that appeared in the CentOS forum not long ago. Would this be regarded as CentOS-related and accepted or would it be rejected?
http://www.centos.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14058&forum=3...
Akemi
Akemi Yagi wrote:
As a test case, I'd like to present this post that appeared in the CentOS forum not long ago. Would this be regarded as CentOS-related and accepted or would it be rejected?
http://www.centos.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14058&forum=3...
It's not too clear about what it has to with CentOS, should be a bit more expansive about what the job requires. IMHO.
Cheers,
Ralph
Ralph Angenendt wrote:
Akemi Yagi wrote:
As a test case, I'd like to present this post that appeared in the CentOS forum not long ago. Would this be regarded as CentOS-related and accepted or would it be rejected?
http://www.centos.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14058&forum=3...
It's not too clear about what it has to with CentOS, should be a bit more expansive about what the job requires. IMHO.
It's not clearly EL-related; it says "outsourcing" so I suspect they're looking for someone to add it to the list of things they do. Maybe a smallbusiness person who does such things.
It doesn't look like enough work for one.
You know what would be a good idea:
If you had a website that would parse various job postings on mailing lists, then categorize them by location, job type, etc. and post them on a craig's list type setting. Hmmm........
Seriously, I think the job posting list is a great idea, no matter what form it takes. I also think that having formatting guidelines for posting jobs is a good idea, so that people that subscribe can set up email filters that sort out the junk.
I think ease of setting up rules should be the primary motavation for the guidelines.
That would also take out some of the abuse potential, as humans would have to reformat the emails they are posting everywhere else for this mailing list.
-- Scott
PS: Anyone looking for an MA in economics with some mean centos and ubuntu skills? He He He...
On May 5, 2008, at 4:25 PM, John Summerfield wrote:
Ralph Angenendt wrote:
Akemi Yagi wrote:
As a test case, I'd like to present this post that appeared in the CentOS forum not long ago. Would this be regarded as CentOS-related and accepted or would it be rejected?
http://www.centos.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14058&forum=3...
It's not too clear about what it has to with CentOS, should be a bit more expansive about what the job requires. IMHO.
It's not clearly EL-related; it says "outsourcing" so I suspect they're looking for someone to add it to the list of things they do. Maybe a smallbusiness person who does such things.
It doesn't look like enough work for one.
--
Cheers John
-- spambait 1aaaaaaa@coco.merseine.nu Z1aaaaaaa@coco.merseine.nu -- Advice http://webfoot.com/advice/email.top.php http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375
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On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 6:06 PM, Akemi Yagi amyagi@gmail.com wrote:
On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 8:52 AM, Daniel de Kok me@danieldk.org wrote:
I think we should restrict this to CentOS (or upstream)-related job offers, not generic UNIX/Linux-related offers.
As a test case, I'd like to present this post that appeared in the CentOS forum not long ago. Would this be regarded as CentOS-related and accepted or would it be rejected? http://www.centos.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14058&forum=3...
I would reject it:
- It does note state where CentOS is involved. - It is not clear whether the company wants to hire a person full time, or wants to make use of consulting services. - What prior experience is required? What qualifications? (- How about salary/benefits?)
I think this is a good example what a job offer could look like: http://mail-index.netbsd.org/netbsd-jobs/2006/07/21/0000.html
-- Daniel
I think a mailing list is a good idea, but I think it should have some formatting guidelines (not "rules", just guidelines).
Example:
* The city the job is located in should appear first on the Subject line. * Specific skills needed should appear on the email.
That's just my twenty cents.
- Scott
Ralph Angenendt wrote:
Developers, developers, developers ...
We had a short discussion about "How to offer jobs / How to search for people who know CentOS" within the existing CentOS infrastructure. We dismissed the idea of putting a "Jobs forum" at http://www.centos.org/modules/newbb/, neither did we want a section on the web site which would have to be cared about by some sort of editorial staff.
(Note: We can still discuss about that)
What we thought about is a CentOS-jobs mailing list to which you can send a mail when you want to offer a job in which CentOS plays a role.
Some (rather unsorted) thoughts which came up:
- Do we also want people to be able to search for jobs (my opinion: No)
- should that list be moderated (my opinion: Yes - by maybe more than one person)
- Which standards do we need for a job to be posted there? That helps weeding out some "get criminal quick" schemes or other snowball schemes.
- Do we want an unmoderated discussion list besides that for discussing about job offers - like on Usenet (my opinion: No, that really is a way for quick and lasting flame fests)
And the biggest questions: Do we need that all? Do you have another vision of how we can do those job offerings within our infrastructure? Do you have experiences with stuff like that? Do *you* want to moderate that list (or at least help with that)?
Discuss. I'd be particularly interested in the standards for job offerings.
Cheers,
Ralph
CentOS-devel mailing list CentOS-devel@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-devel
Ralph Angenendt wrote:
Scott Grizzard wrote:
I think a mailing list is a good idea, but I think it should have some formatting guidelines (not "rules", just guidelines).
Example:
- The city the job is located in should appear first on the Subject line.
What about the country? =:D
Following up on that: I think that foreign language mails should be allowed when/if there is an english translation also in those mails. Or at least a rough overview of what the job is about in english.
Ralph
On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 6:32 PM, Ralph Angenendt ra+centos@br-online.de wrote:
Ralph Angenendt wrote:
Scott Grizzard wrote:
I think a mailing list is a good idea, but I think it should have some formatting guidelines (not "rules", just guidelines).
Example:
- The city the job is located in should appear first on the Subject line.
What about the country? =:D
Following up on that: I think that foreign language mails should be allowed when/if there is an english translation also in those mails. Or at least a rough overview of what the job is about in english.
Yes. If an offer is purely in a foreign language, it's probably better off on one of the non-English lists after an acknowledgement of the list moderator. I have only once received such request for the Dutch list.
-- Daniel -- Daniel
Hi,
I've got no real comments based on what was already said. I just want to say it is a good idea.
What maybe is a option is to post the rules and some sort of template on the wiki and refer to that when people want to post something.
Regards, Tim
On Mon, 5 May 2008, Ralph Angenendt wrote:
Ralph Angenendt wrote:
Scott Grizzard wrote:
I think a mailing list is a good idea, but I think it should have some formatting guidelines (not "rules", just guidelines).
Example:
- The city the job is located in should appear first on the Subject line.
What about the country? =:D
Following up on that: I think that foreign language mails should be allowed when/if there is an english translation also in those mails. Or at least a rough overview of what the job is about in english.
I took that to ask if the country/location as well as the city should be required in the subject rather than what language the text might happen to be in.
For example a job offer in the city of 'Cambridge' might be in one of several places... :-)
Not that we seem to generally specify what exact Linux distros people should be familiar with (we hope for applicants who can learn and apply their knowledge to anything), but if we did we wouldn't want people to accidentally think that we are located near Boston MA.
-- Jon
[ would anyone be interested in a junior position in our HEP group? ]
Jon Peatfield wrote:
Not that we seem to generally specify what exact Linux distros people should be familiar with (we hope for applicants who can learn and apply their knowledge to anything), but if we did we wouldn't want people to accidentally think that we are located near Boston MA.
-- Jon
[ would anyone be interested in a junior position in our HEP group? ]
HEP?
It's not obvious to me that, should I be looking for someone to work on my CentOS project that I should restrict myself to people who are already involved in CentOS. Generally, I would think, people experienced in RHEL or SL would serve as well, and those familiar with other distros (Debian, SUSE) might bring fresh ideas.
I like the Shuttles technique - go on a holiday. Take archives of mailing lists. Evaluate peoples' skills, attitudes (eg how they deal with others)and ethics. Then, issue invitations.
On Tue, 6 May 2008, John Summerfield wrote:
<snip>
[ would anyone be interested in a junior position in our HEP group? ]
HEP?
HEP == High Energy Physics (almost universally I thought).
It is just a job supporting computing in that group here (well ~50% of the time) so the actual meaning isn't very important.
The deadline for applications is today and it is a junior post so I doubt that many people reading this would be very interested. If you are I'm sure that your advanced google-fu would let you find it pretty quickly ;-)
-- Jon
Ralph Angenendt wrote:
Developers, developers, developers ...
We had a short discussion about "How to offer jobs / How to search for people who know CentOS" within the existing CentOS infrastructure. We dismissed the idea of putting a "Jobs forum" at http://www.centos.org/modules/newbb/, neither did we want a section on the web site which would have to be cared about by some sort of editorial staff.
(Note: We can still discuss about that)
What we thought about is a CentOS-jobs mailing list to which you can send a mail when you want to offer a job in which CentOS plays a role.
Some (rather unsorted) thoughts which came up:
- Do we also want people to be able to search for jobs (my opinion: No)
- should that list be moderated (my opinion: Yes - by maybe more than one person)
- Which standards do we need for a job to be posted there? That helps weeding out some "get criminal quick" schemes or other snowball schemes.
- Do we want an unmoderated discussion list besides that for discussing about job offers - like on Usenet (my opinion: No, that really is a way for quick and lasting flame fests)
And the biggest questions: Do we need that all? Do you have another vision of how we can do those job offerings within our infrastructure? Do you have experiences with stuff like that? Do *you* want to moderate that list (or at least help with that)?
Discuss. I'd be particularly interested in the standards for job offerings.
A job posting list would be abused 6 ways to Sunday by head hunters and recruitment firms.
Just my .02
-Ross
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On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 12:01 AM, Ross S. W. Walker rwalker@medallion.com wrote:
A job posting list would be abused 6 ways to Sunday by head hunters and recruitment firms.
Hence moderation ;).
-- Daniel
On Tue, 6 May 2008, Daniel de Kok wrote:
On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 12:01 AM, Ross S. W. Walker rwalker@medallion.com wrote:
A job posting list would be abused 6 ways to Sunday by head hunters and recruitment firms.
Hence moderation ;).
Jobs are only useful based on location, that means a particular job in Brussels may not appeal to 99% of the subscribers, and therefor the signal-to-noise ratio is very poor. (May be different for very short contract work items or simple support requests)
I would leave job-offerings to dedicated, specialised sites where people can search and put resumes online. But if we have people to volunteer for the moderation I do not object with an experiment :)
I just think it may be a waste of time, especially if moderation is required. Although it seems to work out fine for Drupal:
http://drupal.org/paid-services http://groups.drupal.org/jobs
Dag Wieers wrote:
I just think it may be a waste of time, especially if moderation is required.
It's not going to be that much of a task to moderate a few job postings.
Although it seems to work out fine for Drupal:
http://drupal.org/paid-services http://groups.drupal.org/jobs
As it does for at least netbsd, as far as I know (one of their developers is sitting a few desks away and we talked about that a little bit).
Ralph
Ross S. W. Walker wrote:
A job posting list would be abused 6 ways to Sunday by head hunters and recruitment firms.
So you want to apply for that database job which requires no oracle knowledge but if you can bring in some cli experience (can you spell ${VARIABLE}?) we'd like to talk to you.
Ralph Angenendt wrote:
What we thought about is a CentOS-jobs mailing list to which you can send a mail when you want to offer a job in which CentOS plays a role.
As this has slept in a bit and I'm still not too sure if it really is a good idea (but I'm leaning towards it), I try to rephrase (should, should not, must, must not as in RFC 2119):
- Jobs must have to do with CentOS - List must be moderated - Job offers must not just include links to other sites (meaning: Job offers must include full details) - Foreign language mails are okay, as long as an english explanation is also in that mail - Job offers should include Country and if applicable City in the subject - There will be no discussion on that list - There will be no Reply-To: for discussions on other lists - List Reply-To: will be set to sender (so that you can answer directly)
Anything I missed?
Anyone else thinking that we should give it at least a try?
Anyone wanting to help to moderate that list (I think Daniel said yes)?
Cheers,
Ralph
On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 5:20 PM, Ralph Angenendt ra+centos@br-online.de wrote:
...snip...
Anything I missed?
I don't hink so.
Anyone else thinking that we should give it at least a try?
Yep, just give it a go and see what happens.
Anyone wanting to help to moderate that list (I think Daniel said yes)?
I don't think it will be a high volume list but I'm willing to help if it is to much work.
Regards, Tim
On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 5:20 PM, Ralph Angenendt ra+centos@br-online.de wrote:
Anyone wanting to help to moderate that list (I think Daniel said yes)?
Correct.
Take care, Daniel
-
Akemi Yagi -
Dag Wieers -
Daniel de Kok -
Daniel de Kok -
John Summerfield -
Jon Peatfield -
Ralph Angenendt -
Ross S. W. Walker -
Scott Grizzard -
Tim Verhoeven